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This Is How Israel Is Ruining Our Way of Life!


World  (tags: Free, speech, criticize, Israel )

Sam
- 1329 days ago - salon.com
Free speech for all on campus! Unless you're criticizing Israel, that is! Speech critical of Israel is increasingly being suppressed, voices silenced -- along with charges of anti-Semitism.



   

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Comments

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday October 1, 2015, 5:30 am
Yes - see also The Greatest Threat to Campus Free Speech is Coming From Dianne Feinstein and her Military-Contractor Husband - Greenwald's article.

And among those objecting to such manipulation, such muzzling, are many Jews, e.g.:

"As campus First Amendment lawyer Ari Cohn put it the following day, “Feinstein and her husband think college students should be expelled for protected free speech.”"

Greenwald discusses the State definition of anti-Semitism -
How does speech about Israel become “anti-Semitic”? According to the State Department, “anti-Semitism” includes those who (1) “Demonize Israel” by “drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis” or “blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions”; (2) espouse a “Double standard for Israel” by “requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation” or “multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations”; or (3) “Delegitimize Israel” by “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist.” The State Department generously adds this caveat at the end: “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.”

and goes on to point out:
"The ironies of this definition are overwhelming. First, it warns against advocating a “double standard for Israel” — at exactly the same time that it promulgates a standard that applies only to Israel."

"The State Department is purporting to regulate the discourse surrounding just one country — Israel — while at the same time condemning “double standards.”"

"Worse, this State Department definition explicitly equates certain forms of criticism of Israel or activism against Israeli government policies with “anti-Semitism.” In other words, the State Department embraces the twisted premise that a defining attribute of “Jews” everywhere is the actions of the Israeli government, which is itself a longstanding anti-Semitic trope."

I know from Care2 (and elsewhere) that there are numerous Jews that do NOT wish to be defined by Israeli government policies, attitudes and actions .... They see their religion &/or their culture as standing for principles that are often betrayed by the State of Israel. I gladly stand with those Semitic Jews who support Semitic human rights ... including those of the Palestinians.

Thanks, Sam, for posting this
 

Rose Becke (141)
Thursday October 1, 2015, 7:38 pm
I love Evelyn's comment
 

Janis K (129)
Thursday October 1, 2015, 8:52 pm
Thanks Sam
 

fly bird (26)
Thursday October 1, 2015, 11:40 pm
More muzzling by opportunistic bigots:

"Logically, there should be absolutely no contradiction between advocating for free speech in general and supporting the free speech rights of critics of Israel. An abstract principle for freedom usually does not come accompanied by “except in the case of.” And yet that has been the case when it comes to discussions of Israel-Palestine."

Thank you, Sam, for posting.
 

Maria Teresa Schollhorn (42)
Friday October 2, 2015, 2:54 am
Noted. Thanks for sharing Sam.
 

Erika M (0)
Friday October 2, 2015, 6:37 am
Excellent article. I have been accused of "anti-semitism because of my views of Israel. Like I care what others think. Netanyahu is this centuries Hitler.
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 2, 2015, 7:02 am
Thanks Sam! Was hoping someone would post this as I incidently read GG's article just yesterday.
First they come after your way of live...better watch out if they come after your life next.. and all of ours..

BTW, you went silent for a week, I had already started to worry if the fat guy has evacuated you .. ;) Glad to see you're ok.
Also haven't seen anyone posting the Nutyahoo's drama theater that was his UNGA speech -? LOL ;)

 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 2, 2015, 7:07 am
To sum it up, I think Mr Putin put it best in his speech (yes, no matter what each of you may think of Putin, he did and does speak the truth and has the guts to do so) pointing out the two "exceptionalists" who are the true danger to the world and its peace!
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 2, 2015, 7:16 am
Before some ferals and other predators fall in here trashing and derailing the thread again,, let's spell it out:
This is NOT ANTISEMITISM; THIS IS NOT ANTISEMITISM; THIS IS NOT ANTISEMITISM; THHS IS NOT ANTISEMITISM; this is FREE SPEECH !! Justified criticism by all means!
 

Kathleen M (208)
Friday October 2, 2015, 7:21 am
Grimly noted. Thanks for sharing, Sam, and esteemed commenters!
 

Roberto MARINI (88)
Friday October 2, 2015, 8:40 am
noted, thank you!
 

lisa O (6)
Friday October 2, 2015, 12:32 pm
Good article and it sums up things I have thought for years. We cannot silence dissent of one group and call it fair.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday October 2, 2015, 12:40 pm
When the only way of "countering" uncomfortable discussion is to muzzle it, doesn't that hint that MAYBE there is something wrong with the position that is "defended" by muzzling?

And the worst thing that can happen to our world is that the institutions that should be turning out future leaders able to analyse and explore all angles of even the uncomfortable questions turns them out with the message that SOME questions must NOT be asked ....
 

Lona Goudswaard (66)
Friday October 2, 2015, 1:02 pm
Thanks for posting, Sam. Some people have called me ant-semitic because I criticized the leadership of Israel (never "the Jews") and that's always been a source of mirth to me, a Jewish woman by decent. Others with more sense have called me a self-denying Jew, which was more hurtfull, but just as far from the truth. I'm not American, so I can't really say if the American way of life is changed or threatened by what this article describes, but one thing is clear to me. Criticism is a indissoluble from Freedom of Speech and there are no exceptions to that rule for just one party that doesn't like to be criticized. They are one, always.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday October 2, 2015, 1:06 pm
Evelyn: "I know from Care2 (and elsewhere) that there are numerous Jews that do NOT wish to be defined by Israeli government policies, attitudes and actions .... They see their religion &/or their culture as standing for principles that are often betrayed by the State of Israel. I gladly stand with those Semitic Jews who support Semitic human rights ... including those of the Palestinians."

I concur.
 

Kate Kenner (215)
Friday October 2, 2015, 1:39 pm
The problem is Sam is that all you do is criticize Israel. I am thinking you feel that all Israelis are alike but I don't know if you are open to that idea. I do not think Israel is perfect by any stretch of the imagination but you seem to get thieve on your hatred along with your cronies.
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Friday October 2, 2015, 1:40 pm
Noted. Thanks for posting, Sam. Excellent article and I agree with Evelyn's above comment.
 

Sam H (410)
Friday October 2, 2015, 2:33 pm
Thanks Lois! If only I had a clue about what that post above yours meant!
 

Freya H (345)
Friday October 2, 2015, 2:55 pm
Not so long ago I would have been horrified to hear anybody compare any Jew/Israeli to Austria's most nefarious native son. Now I realize it is perfectly justified in the case of Netanyahu. Just because he isn't responsible for the deaths of 6 million Palestinians does not make him any less evil.

So, we can't criticize Israel, can we? Let us remind Israel and its McCarthy-esque stooges of Abbie Hoffman's observation that sacred cows make the best hamburger. Fire up the grill!
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 2, 2015, 3:03 pm
Freya, he sure has been working toward one million, give him enough time and he'd be approaching that number, if there were 6 Million Palestinians within his reach.
 

Janet B (0)
Friday October 2, 2015, 3:58 pm
Thanks
 

M B (62)
Friday October 2, 2015, 4:32 pm
thank you for posting !
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday October 2, 2015, 4:36 pm
Kate - if you followed comments by Sam, and those you call his "cronies" (a rather offensive term), you would know that very few "feel that all Israelis are alike": far from it.
"Israel" - referring to the Israeli government - is by no means representative of all Israelis. Even if one means "all Jewish Israelis" and exclude the Palestinian Israelis (which I suspect is what you actually meant here).

There are many Jewish Israelis who are far from comfortable with the government's stance towards Palestinians. Some are uncomfortable, but do not take an active position. Others are active - although they often pay a heavy price, attacked for being "self-hating", considered traitors by the extremists and many other pro-Zionists.

Perhaps if more Israelis posted criticism of the Israeli Government's policies & strategies, and criticism of Zionism, here, Sam (and his "cronies") wouldn't be targetted and accused of anti-Semitism when they are actually not anti-Semitic ....

In fact, within Israel, there appears to be more space for criticising the government and the extreme right/ pro-Zionists (politicians and others) than in the US - where there are frequent efforts to muzzle criticism of the State of Israel (a political entity) .... This story is an illustration of how such muzzling occurs
 

Past Member (0)
Friday October 2, 2015, 8:08 pm
Agree with this mixture of the above comments, Evelyn---wow, fabulous, informative and fair-minded. Angelika, who is always spot-on, informative and analytically just. Add splash of Dandelion & Jess and yo have my view on this. Freedom of Speech should mean just that. Now, what if you speak against freedom of speech? Should there still be freedom of speech to speak against it?
 

Leanne B (46)
Friday October 2, 2015, 9:13 pm
I agree with Janice above. Thanks all.
 

fly bird (26)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 11:30 am
Sign the petition - No Weapons For Israel.

The Israeli government and many of its U.S. supporters tried everything they could to defeat President Obama’s nuclear deal with Iran. Fortunately, they failed and peace and diplomacy won!

But now Congress and the Obama administration plan to reward Israel by authorizing the transfer of “massive ordnance penetrators” and other advanced weaponry that it can use to attack Iran. If Israel bombs Iran, then there’s a good chance that the U.S. will be dragged into another war.

And the U.S. is prepared to sign a new 10-year deal to give Israel—one of the largest weapons exporters in the world—as much as $45 billion more in U.S. taxpayer-funded weapons. Israel routinely uses these weapons to injure and kill Palestinian civilians and destroy their homes, agriculture and infrastructure, in violation of U.S. law.

We just avoided a potential war with Iran. Why would we now give Israel weapons it needs to start a war with Iran and more weapons to continue oppressing the Palestinians?

Sign the petition to President Obama and tell him #NoWeapons4Israel.


Dear President Obama,
The United States should not reward Israel with more weapons after Israel and its lobby, AIPAC, attempted to scuttle your administration’s nuclear deal with Iran. The transfer of “massive ordnance penetrators” and other advanced weaponry increases the likelihood of a unilateral Israeli attack against Iran. And a new 10-year deal to provide Israel with up to $45 billion in more US taxpayer-funded weapons will deepen US complicity in Israel’s human rights abuses of Palestinians, in violation of the Arms Export Control and Foreign Assistance Acts. We just avoided a potential war with Iran. Do not give Israel weapons that it can use to start a war with Iran and more weapons to continue oppressing the Palestinians.

http://act.rootsaction.org/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=11627
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 1:20 pm
Thx jess, have posted here and signed this earlier.
 

Janet B (0)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 2:31 pm
Thanks
 

Roslyn McBride (26)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 3:30 pm
Stop blaming Israel for everything you think of.
 

. (0)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 7:26 pm
Comparing Israeli policies or its leaders to Hitler or Nazis does not necessarily mean you are anti-Semitic, but it does prove you are a moron.
 

Misbah Malik (33)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 9:38 pm
Article well explains itself. I agree, we must free ourself from this confinement! Israel just want to become super power leaving America behind, hahaha."..".... Look at this funny fuss.....
 

Julie W (33)
Saturday October 3, 2015, 10:15 pm
Criticizing the Israeli government is not the same as criticizing the Israeli people. I doubt they all agree on its policies, same as I don't always agree with my government's policies.

To say it is antisemitic is ridiculous.
 

Pamela Tracy (5)
Sunday October 4, 2015, 11:58 am
British would love to take the front stage and stay there. However, I am tired of the issues with Israel and the Palestinian state also. And, I do not want my tax dollars every year or anyone else's giving Israeli students free college/university education when myself as an Irish etc and other ancestry American had a very difficult time getting what education I wanted. And, forces unknown to me talked my daughter into stopping one quarter from her 2 year degree and forces keep stopping my son from getting a higher ed. Guess what, my son took the entrance exam at MSU and his math/calculus score was 90...the other young men in the room taking the tests were struggling to get the calculus. My son had a problem with English only he scored good...he is very literate and he was reading at this high school grade level and comprehending reading and I am sick and tired of shit America trying to tell me just because I was white I cannot do this or that....and they did. Every time I got up in a job, the crap intel and media pushed me down illegally. ALLLLLLL because my foreign intel British and Irish and French ancestry etc. and Native American Indian ancestry were jealous. I am tire of Israel and I am not an anti semite ALTHO MY FIRST HUSBAND DIVORCED ME AND LIED IN 1969 AND USED AN ATTORNEY WHO WAS JEWISH IN ALBANY, NY WHO PROCEEDED TO SHIT ON HIM AND ME....ALTHO HE DID NOT KNOW IT THEN AND NEITHER DID I. THE ATTYS IN ALBANY NY ARE THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF KILLERS IN THIS NATION. NOW, AS AN OLDER WOMAN I WAS ABUSED IN ALBANY NY BY A CHINESE WOMAN WHO WAS JEALOUS OF ME ALTHO SHE CAME OVER HERE AS A CATHOLIC AND WAS LIVING ON HER GREEN CARD AND WORKING FOR NY STATE AND HAD HER UNIVERSITY EDUCATION HERE AND ACTED LIKE WE AMERICAN WOMEN OWED HER A CHINESE WOMAN A LIVING...I AM TIRED OF NY STATE NO WONDER BAD THINGS HAPPENED TO THEM....THEY SICCED MINORITY RACE PEOPLE ON ME OF WHOM I NEVER KNEW AND CALLED ME A BIGOT BECAUSE I HAD REFUSED TO STAY IN A MINORITY RACE MARRIAGE AND SO THEY THOUGHT I WAS A BIGOT WHEN NO I JUST CAUGHT THE HUSBAND..AS THE FIRST HUSBAND..THE SECOND HUSBAND THOUGHT HE COULD CHEAT TO...I AM AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY WIFE...GOT RID LEGALLY OF BOTH OF THE MARRIAGES BECAUSE I PICKED MEN WHO TOLD ME THEY WERE FAITHFUL AND WERE NOT FAITHFUL. ANYWAY....
 

Pamela Tracy (5)
Sunday October 4, 2015, 11:59 am
I follow an animal welfare woman in Israel. She said she immigrated to Israel 26 years ago. She feeds homeless cats and has many cats homed and is taking care of them in her building. She said in Israel, that cats are considered vermin. Does that tell you their mentality. And, I am not anti semite.
 

Sam H (410)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:13 am
Well, Pamela, you still fared a lot better with your husbands than the Palestinians did with the Zionists. You got yourself two beautiful children out of these adventures. And I'm going to assume that you got to choose those husbands of your own free will. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have nothing but heartache to show for their experience— heartache brought about by having been abused in every possible way by the Zionists. They never chose the husband and they can’t even get a divorce! But even if the idea for a divorce ever crossed their mind, they’d be called anti-Semites!
 

Stan B (123)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:14 am
Roslyn McBride. Good point. The only reason poor Sam has for getting up in the morning is to post an Israel hate thread on Care 2.
His followers, like Angelika and Jess, have the same mind set. Their posting history will confirm this.
I sometimes wonder what people like poor Sam would be posting on care 2 if Israel didn't exist and I'm pretty sure I know.
As I've said on numerous occasions, time to come out of the closet Sam. It's ironic you have a HEBREW name.
Pamela. Your post isn't true. I have a friend in Israel who has 4 cats and various members of her family also have cats that they treat like royalty. Not a good idea to identify a whole country by the comments of one individual.
 

Sam H (410)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:15 am
Oh, the one whose name is a typo!
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 5, 2015, 3:53 am
How about Has- Sam ? ever thought of that?
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:06 pm
Freedom of speech does not include the right to promote racial hatred.
 

Sam H (410)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:12 pm
Then stop promoting racial hatred, John!
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:12 pm
Google 'Scholars For Peace In The Middle East' - 'BDS hate on campus is real'
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:14 pm
Ros: I just reported that post. Stan has the right to post here without being mocked.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Monday October 5, 2015, 1:14 pm
Sam: And I reported your post as well.
 

Sam H (410)
Monday October 5, 2015, 2:05 pm
You're such an anti-Semite, John. How could you report Ros after she poured her heart out and shared what her family went through during WW2.

You're such a monstrous bigot. You come here to derail the discussion and offer nothing to contribute towards promoting peace between the invading Zionists and the rightful owners of the land of Palestine!

Netanyahu himself couldn't be that awful, even if he tried! And he's always trying!
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday October 5, 2015, 2:54 pm
The original article from the Salon is kind of funny in context. If criticism of Israel were really prevented, how could anyone explain this:
http://www.salon.com/search/?q=Israel
Obviously, the Salon must be on the verge of about a million lawsuits. ...

Still waiting. ...

No, the fact is that it's not criticism of Israel that gets opposed so heavily, though legitimate criticism does get caught in the middle. It's antisemitism that abuses political protest or critique as a pretext that is generally targeted. To understand what's going on, as usual, you need context. Where criticism of Israel's humanitarian record is part of a broader similarly intense campaign, that is fine and appropriate. For the most part, this is not the case. Just take a look at, for example, Sam's post-history. He's fixated on Israel, as are most serious critics of Israel.

The humanitarian motivations most often claimed by anti-Israel groups would lead to activism for Congo, those under ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Darfur, Myanmar, and a whole lot of other places, even Russia, but that's not the context. They might even complain about the Palestinian Authority's abuses of its people, but they don't. We just cannot take those activists and organizations at their word when their behaviour totally undermines their claims. Anti-war motivations claimed by others would lead to a lot more interest in Somali Civil War, Yemen, and other places where there are real wars going on or where they have been going on during the period of anti-Israel activism. Again, that's just not the context: The same organizations critiquing Israel ignore those wars. Anti-war activism is just a pretext for some other motivation.

When the major reasons given are clearly false, who here would normally attribute some kind of honorable motive to these activists and organizations? Suspicion alone is not cause to conclude a cause of hatred. Some anti-Israel activists openly say they "wish Hitler had succeeded", or that "Jews should be driven into the sea", or applaud the murder of Jews in Israel and elsewhere. That's enough to conclude a motive of hatred. Even this, alone, would not be cause to clamp down on these groups. The fact is, however, that antisemitic attacks peak when they are most active. They incite hate-crimes locally and worldwide, and never take responsibility or try to control themselves, recklessly causing more damage. That is hate-speech, and that should be targeted.

Does this mean that all criticism of Israel ought to be targeted? Obviously not, and as the Salon's continued existence, and Care2's lack of legal obligation to silence Sam prove, it's really not. Those two are comical cases of "I can't speak! Hear me not speak! These words that I'm saying right now, I'm not able to say them!"

There is other, legitimate, criticism of Israel. There are organizations which apply other motives, like communities' responsibility to self-police. There are even some (very few) groups that critique both Israel and other countries proportionally to the facts of each case. Those are free to criticize Israel and are really not silenced. It's a testament to their rarity that they are so often ignored.

Aside from all of that, there is the "solidarity" activism. There are a lot of groups which have no interest in the matter whatsoever. QAIA is a great example: They just see Israel as a symbol of the right-wing, and oppose it for domestic political reasons. They don't really want to hand a state to Palestinian leaders who currently execute people for homosexuality, but they'll sign on because it's a left-wing cause. This is the bulk of anti-Israel activists in the West, and they're not engaging in hate-speech, just ignorant parroting. However, again they are there as support, and shutting down the most heavily anti-Israel activists out there should cut down on the hate-crimes the movement as a whole incites.

The muzzling of so many anti-Israel critics is not a case-specific exception. It's a matter of taking context, something so often ignored in their rhetoric, into account.
 

Stan B (123)
Monday October 5, 2015, 4:42 pm
John. Thanks for coming to my defence. Ros and I have crossed swords in the past but have almost always treated each other with respect and humour. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about some of her friends.
The ultimate irony is Sam calling you an antis-Semite. Talk about the pot calling the kettle..........
Stephen. Many thanks for introducing common sense into this ridiculous topic.
I hope none of my American friends have had their way of lives ruined. LOL
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 2:54 am
Stephen
Citing genuine anit-Semitic comments as typical of most anti-(State of )Israel activists is not really up to your own standards of integrity. You have your personal problems with Sam, as you have written openly elsewhere - but have you seen Sam write such comments? I don't think so - I haven't.

If you've read the article - and usually you do so before commenting (unlike some people) - the point at issue is the idea of banning criticism of Israeli political actions & strategies in a University context. Muzzling one side of discussion in a context where people SHOULD be learning to understand and analyse different perspectives. I noticed that there are Jewish students who object to the stance taken by the U.C. Regent Richard Blum on the muzzling of those expressing criticism of the State of Israel.

Conflating criticism of the political entity (Israel) and anti-Semitism is unjust to Jews as a whole - in the same way as blaming all Americans for the politics of the US government .... in fact, it is worse - because not all Jews are Israelis, and some who are not Israelis have no wish to be Israeli.

If some people keep sharing criticism of the political entity of Israel, and the political Zionist movement, it is because there is so much effort to place Israel outside of any criticism - to project an image of "victim", always totally in the right, never doing wrong - and all is justifiable because only hate could motivate criticism. In this way, the abuse of Palestinian rights can be whitewashed over; the crimes of extremists in Israel can be disguised as "defense".

But there are many, including Jews, who do NOT accept the false image projected. The wrongs committed against Jews in Europe over the centuries do not justify a government endorsing similar actions against their fellow Semitic people, the Palestinians (who do not have a history of abusing the Jews over the centuries - and were not the cause of the waves of migration into their country ... only the victims of the politics & the extremists among the immigrants).

The attempts to muzzle any discussion of the wrongs are in fact proof that if facts are shared openly about what has been done "legally" against Palestinians, and what IS being done - many people would object ... i.e. muzzling is necessary in order to hide realities that have some element of shame.

John attacks Ros - a Jew who has shared some of her family's experiences here, but who does NOT approve Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians. In that context, Sam is right to point out that one could call such an attack anti-Semitic ... It was anti, & Ros is a Jewish Semite! Her exchange with Stan is in a context where they know each other well enough, there are major differences in their perceptions of the ME, but they have some mutual respect that we have seen in other exchanges (but John apparently has missed, not surprisingly, and leapt to make a personal attack - again)
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 6:05 am
Ros - he's just demonstrating his version of "free speech", Animal Farm style! The "free speech for all (except critics of polit-Israel) crowd " find it easy to flag what they don't agree with ...... JdeA was on a flagging spree ....
But hang on in here - we missed you too much when you were moving & away from Care2 ...
*****************************************************************************
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 6:59 am
Ros: I don't want anyone to be banned. What I do want is for people to stop abusing Care2 by persistently promoting racial hatred.

And I think legitimate points can be made without resorting to personal abuse.
Personal abuse is against the rules of Care2 - which all of us agreed to abide by when we joined.

If anyone genuinely wants a better world then instead of stirring up hate, try promoting peace and brotherhood.

 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 7:04 am
And on the subject matter, if you read up about it you'll find the BDS and pro-Intifada groups have been stirring up anti-Semitism on America's university campuses, resulting in intimidation and even on occasion physical assault.

 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 7:10 am
Stan: No, the irony was not lost on me. But nothing surprises me here.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 7:12 am
Sam: I reported that one as well.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 7:14 am
Sam: Any news on you returning the land you are squatting on to its rightful owners i.e. the Native Americans?
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 9:17 am
Any time, John! I'll even honor and implement all UN resolutions in that regard and acknowledge ICC's jurisdiction to prosecute any and all crimes committed against Native Americans.

Let's have the Zionists match this commitment in their abusive relationship with the Palestinians.

And I profess no divine superiority to any other race in existence. And BTW, it's mighty preposterous of you to assume I'm not Native American or that I don't champion their cause.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 10:03 am
Hi Evelyn :)

The trouble is in two parts:
First, there is the relevance of context and patterns. Those can say a whole lot more than individual explicit statements. Sam's behaviour shows a pattern including hallmarks of antisemitism. His "humanitarian" speech fixates on Israel. Right here, he's fixating on Israeli impact on the West: Just look at his title. The pattern of behaviour does not match his claimed motivations. Now let's look at what clear matches there are.

He wrote about Jews wielding undue political influence in the West and over both media and a justice-system, a typical antisemitic accusation going back centuries. He recently mocked an article which pointed out a very public accusation of divided loyalty in the NYT. Attempts to undermine opposition to some activity is functionally support of that activity. The accusation of divided loyalty has been around as long as Jews had citizenship and there was even a belief in loyalty to the country in which they lived, and drove a whole lot of antisemitic exiles and ethnic cleansing. He regularly and wrongly accuses Israelis, specifically Jewish Israelis, of vindictively harming nearby non-Jews, and that's the basis of most violent antisemitism. Now please let me know if you really think that a guy who so enthusiastically parrots the bulk of old antisemitic propaganda, pretty much everything but the Protocols, the "Christ-killer" stuff and the Blood Libel, while claiming to do so under a demonstrably false pretext, has no antisemitic motivation.

Genuine antisemitism is not the bulk of the critique of Israeli policy, but it does form the core of it in the West. The bulk of those involved are from a general left-wing solidarity-movement which, if not for the antisemitic core, would not engage in such critique. Once the anti-Israel accusations are deemed credible, they get picked up by a broader base, but the only reason they gain the following necessary to be considered credible in the first place is antisemitism.

The article itself tries to equate the targeting of antisemitism and the targeting of anti-Israel critique. The best it could do is pull a quote from “The Uncivil University: Intolerance on College Campuses” and say it equates anti-Israel activism and antisemitism. Read the quote again. There is a huge difference between "exactly the same" (from the Salon article) and "closely-related" (in the quote from the book). My point here is that the two are really not the same, and that it is antisemitism that is getting targeted, that the targeted suppression of reasonable critique upon which the article is based does not exist, at least not at the scale reported. Where critics of Israel engage in their criticism as part of a broader campaign, or displayed behaviour which did not undermine their claimed honorable motivations, there is no muzzling. The effective muzzling of wrongs comes only as a result of the fact that many of those engaging in it are effectively being led by antisemites.

Here's a good example: "The wrongs committed against Jews in Europe over the centuries do not justify a government endorsing similar actions against their fellow Semitic people, the Palestinians" Where do you think the claim that Israeli actions against Palestinians were similar to those against Jews came from? It obviously wasn't a study of history: Where was the mass-exile of all Palestinians from Israel? When did they all, including the roughly 20% of Israeli citizens who claim Palestinian ethnicity, lose protection under the law and start paying extra taxes? Where do you think the claim that the rationale for Israeli government activity was in European treatment of Jews originated? It certainly wasn't from asking anyone involved in making them: They uniformly rationalize (or justify) their behaviour with security-concerns, not European history. The memes have certainly grown to the point of gaining credibility, but before they did, who do you think was spreading those ideas?
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 10:17 am
A Message to Israel: Time to Stop Lying to the World
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 12:53 pm
Sam - at least this time John has fired his "Native American" argument at someone who lived on the right continent ... of course, he doesn't know whether Native American blood runs in your veins, but he likes to use the indigenous Americans as a parallel for the (immigrant) Jews in the Middle East ... a shaky parallel at best & not very fair to those who are Native Americans ...

Stephen, your arguments are more inconsistent than usual.
You know yourself that Palestinian Israelis do not benefit from exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

You also know that the patterns of night raids, arrests (administrative detention) bears ressemblance to the kinds of situations that Jews have faced at times in Europe & Russia .... not just under the Nazis ......

To claim that it is anti-Semitic to note these points is not worthy of you. You are capable of better analysis than that - and have shown it elsewhere
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 1:43 pm
Shaky parallel? Nonsense. The Jews can trace their heritage and history and claim on the Holy Land back thousands of years. What historical claim do white Americans have on North America? They stole the land by treachery and force of arms from the Native Americans.

Arab Israelis have far more rights and civil liberties than their Arab counterparts in Gaza/West Bank, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States etc.

Numerous studies have shown that Arab Israelis would prefer to live in Israel as Israelis under Israeli governance than under Hamas or Fatah rule.


 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 1:49 pm
And back to the thread topic, students - be they Jewish, African American or Muslim or whatever, should be able to go to school or college without being intimidated, harassed, made to feel afraid or under the threat of violence.

What does threaten 'way of life' is thug rule.
 

Stan B (123)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 6:22 pm
Evelyn. You are obviously a highly intelligent lady which I respect.
I'd just like you to answer a very simple question if you would.
Why do you think Sam posts nothing but Israel hate threads ad nauseum day after day?
Do you seriously believe it has anything to do with the the Israel/Palestine struggle?
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday October 6, 2015, 7:42 pm
Something the Zionists on this thread can rejoice over!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 2:21 am
Stan -
Do you check before making statements such as "Sam posts nothing but Israel hate threads ad nauseum day after day"?

I wonder, because I've had the same accusation made against me ... by someone who clearly hadn't checked what stories I post.

Someone like Sam, who has relatively little time/access to consecrate to Care2, prioritises which stories he posts - and a high proportion do tend to concern Palestine/ Israel/ BDS - but he doesn't post ONLY such stories. And he doesn't post every day. About 20 stories since the beginning of September ..... and not all about Israel or even anything related to the Middle East. Only preconceived bias could describe that as "ad nauseum"

I know that when I have little time free for Care2, I do this: the Middle East situation is one that touches me deeply - I know these countries, I know many people who are deeply touched by the on-going situations ... and they are not terrorists, they are not violent ... and few of them actually "hate" Israelis as a total population.

In fact, it was Palestinian friends who taught me (VERY firmly) to differentiate between "yehudi" (Jews) and the political entity of Israel - Zionism, the Israeli government, the military arm, the extremists. I came from a background that taught nothing about the suffering of the Palestinians, the refugees and those who live under the oppression of the occupation, but what little one learnt about them was the terrorist acts so they came across as monsters (which is how many pro-Zionists intend the world to see them - and my friends wanted to make sure that I didn't swing into an opposite extreme of categorising ALL Israelis, & all Jews in the way I'd been led to view Palestinians.

So when I have limited time, only enough to post one or two stories, if amongst the "shareable" stories there are ones that concern Palestinian human rights and relevant current events, I WILL give those priority. But that doesn't mean I only post such stories - and I don't go out to seek stories that show Israel &/or Jews in a bad light.

For such behaviour - but pro-Israel & Islamophobia - take a look at what your friend Penny does. Unlike Sam (or Carrie or Jess or me) - every story she posts is tagged "Muslim" &/or "Islam" .. or has these terms in the title - She has posted some 50 such stories in under 10 days ..... Now THAT seems far more like obsessive racism .... The term "ad nauseum" comes to mind here ...... In fact, I seldom look at what she posts, because I find the level of hate is sickening. For a while, I tried to find something posted by her that would show a different side, something one could appreciate & identify with (some concern about some subject that is not hate-driven) ... but I gave up. Couldn't find anything free of such hate.

But you don't notice it, because you share some of her mindset, follow some of her pro-Zionist sources yourself, although I suspect that if you thought about it, you wouldn't really fully endorse her obsession, either - because you seem more level headed. I can respect that, while recognising that we'll probably never agree about the way Israeli policies & strategies impact (negatively, in my book) on any hope for building peace!

I can't possibly know what drives Sam. But neither can you.

I can't say I appreciate the twists he gives to the titles he often gives - he knows that - but he does raise issues that I think merit discussion. Trying to damn the man in order to evade looking at the issues - which several of your friends do systematically - suggests that one doesn't want people to look at the issues raised. This thread is a case in point.

How can allowing open & free discussion - which includes criticism - of Israeli politics be interpreted as generating threats to those who support Israel come hell or high water?
However - there is a real threat here against those who DO criticise Israeli politics & government actions ... students (and professors) can find themselves booted out of the education system if such official stance is taken by University authorities ....

Is that so difficult to grasp?

 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 6:10 am
Ros: Whether it was intended to be playful or not, it did not come across that way to a third party.

If you want to have good humoured banter with Stan it maybe would be better to PM him, or at least make the tone a bit more obvious.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 6:18 am
Ros: He is the one who would like to see all the Jews ethnically cleansed from Israel on the grounds (in his view) they 'stole' the land. And this from someone who lives in America!

The Jewish people can trace a history, heritage, culture and occupancy in the Holy Land stretching back thousands of years and so have a valid claim.
The white occupancy of USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand is comparatively recent in historical times, with no cultural connection. The land was 'discovered' (?) and taken over by violent force of arms and treachery.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 6:26 am
Evelyn: Penny is a direct response to Sam. Just like in Israel, one begets the other.

People need to stop stirring the hate pot, and work for peace and reconciliation.

 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 6:35 am
A very good piece on the insidehighered,com website 'Middle East Conflict, US Campuses' explaining the problems stirred up by BDS and the pro-Intifada . The motive is hate, the message is hate and the result is hate.
There is no place for the promotion of such deceptive and corrosive race hatred in our schools and colleges.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 6:41 am
A bitter almost comic irony.
BDS were branded 'trouble makers' and thrown out by the PA!
Yet the founder of BDS emigrated to Israel, lives in Israel, studies in Israel, works in Israel, campaigns in Israel, and rails against the Israeli government in Israel.
Anyone bothered to check the human rights record of the PA or their version of 'civil liberties'?
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 1:23 pm
Speaking of 'valid claims', let me make some:
1. someone here sounds like a broken record, how annoying.
2. there are bad news and stories coming out of Israel on a DAILY BASIS, I would indeed consider this reason enough to post them.
The better question, IF one must ask any in the first pace, would be, WHY is there such a flow of negative, most often horrifying stories from Israel? The "only democracy in the ME", the "frontline state of civilization" ( B.N. at UNGA speech) ????????
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 1:32 pm
Ros - I like your sense of humour - especially when you add music to your comments!
And I think Stan appreciates it in his own way, while disagreeing strongly with your point of view.
Just a note - I don't think John is in the US - he claims to be in Glastonbury, UK ..... so it is the British weight of history that he should bear on his shoulders .... But while hiding (partially) behind a "neutral promoter of peace", he does tend to stir hate - and is blind to the beam in his own eye.

He also seems to have the same idea of "balance" ..... 50+ ALL "hate of Muslims" posts in 10 days is a direct response to Sam's 20 posts, about 80% on Middle East over almost 1.5 months?? Typical of the perspective that massive over-response is "balanced" !!! When he first started posting, I had hopes that he would be - like Stephen - a little open to discussion although deeply rooted in Zionist teaching. But such hopes were rapidly dashed ... He has his roots in a "victim/ hate" bog, & can't resist stiring & attacking personally., with far less careful research before attacking. (Otherwise he'd have no problem with the "ding dong" between you & Stan, he'd have been aware that it wasn't mockery, just an amused aside ..... But he was on a warpath, and doesn't allow us to tease each other ... his loss.)

At least - like Stephen & unlike Penny - he does sometimes look at other posts than those on the Middle East, & there, he can make reasonably analytical fair comments.

Ros - don't lose that sense of humour of yours! Many of us appreciate it, and know it isn't really "nasty"!
I know - I've been on the receiving end of your anger once - but even then, I knew it changed nothing in our mutual respect, and definitely wasn't the "personal attacks" of the kind I receive sometimes form John and others sold on hasbara versions of the Middle East picture!!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 1:35 pm
Excellent question, Angie!!

Back to another question -
If there really isn't any reason to criticise Israel, why does one need to institutionalise bans on criticism of Israel?
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 1:42 pm
Evelyn, I know you're not directing that question at ME, but, if you were, my best answer would be because 99% of zionist brains are destroyed by fear, paranoia- the remaining 1% is most likely greed.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 2:22 pm
************************************* Angie!
You're right, like you, I was asking more widely ... but I'd tend to agree with you!

However - earlier I said something about the fact that criticism of the Israeli government is allowed more freely than the pro-Zionists in the US want to be allowed in the US ....
And that far from all Israeli Jews endose Netanyahu's policies & strategies ..

Here is a prize example: Haaretz: Palestinians Are Fighting for Their Lives; Israel Is Fighting for the Occupation
I quote from this:
"The war did not start last Thursday, it does not start with the Jewish victims and does not end when no Jews are murdered. The Palestinians are fighting for their life, in the full sense of the word. We Israeli Jews are fighting for our privilege as a nation of masters, in the full ugliness of the term"

This kind of analytical criticism would get a student at UC kicked out, if the muzzling called for in the stroy Sam posted were to be adopted as university policy .....
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 4:16 pm
Isn't it a blessing they didn't manage yet to shut down Haaretz! :) But, with a sentence like that, they would probably go beyond kicking the respective student and shut down that class altogether. Just to prevent any possible repeats.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 5:11 pm
Hi Evelyn :)

Strictly speaking, in terms of what has classically been considered important in terms of rights, Arab citizens of Israel who identify as Palestinians would be considered legally favored over secular Jews because they are exempt from the draft in violent region. Palestinians certainly don't get the same funding as religious Jews, but that's nothing close to the sort of difference seen in real cases of arbitrary or hate-driven persecution, and there is a serious push against the political force driving that difference within the secular Jewish community. (It is a matter of religious Jewish parties trading Knesset votes for additional funding for their constituents' institutions, driving a funding difference between them and both secular Jews and non-Jews, but it regularly gets painted as being about non-Jews.)

The pattern of night-raids and administrative detention does bear a resemblance to things Nazis did. So do breathing, eating, and sleeping. The problem with that comparison is that such things are used so broadly, now at least, that trying to call it Nazi-like is just ridiculous. Night-raids are now standard practice, worldwide, both for suspects believed to be dangerous and for police-operations in neighborhoods deemed dangerous for the police. Administrative detention, again, is really not specific to Nazis. We have an equivalent in Canada and nobody is comparing Canadians to Nazis. We could talk about context and scale of the night-raids and arrests, but then we would have to wonder why Assad hasn't been compared to Hitler much lately. More importantly, we would have to consider that the Nazis did those things unprompted in the context of killing the prisoners for the purpose of genocide, which Israel does not. In absolutely no way, whether in terms of scale, intent, environment, specific act, legal framework, or really any other, do the Israeli raids and arrests bear much more resemblance to Nazi behaviour than does the regular arrest of criminals, in Canada at least, to the Paul Bernardo kidnappings.

I really don't see the inconsistencies in what I wrote here. There may be some things I left out and, by omission, I may have accidentally implied some contradictory or unworthy things. Please let me know.

Here's one thing which I think is worth clearing up, looking over my prior posts: In terms of numbers of people involved, I do not believe that anti-Israel activism is dominated by antisemitism. Looking in terms of acts and significance of anti-Israel activism, however, is a different story because antisemitic factions are very disproportionately active in anti-Israel activism. That's a major part of why I see no inconsistency between opposing the bulk of the activism and concentrating on targeting antisemitism.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday October 7, 2015, 5:43 pm
Stephen
Just one (of several) differences in rights of Palestinian Israelis - they can't live wherever they wish in the country! That is quite a significant difference in rights .....

As for serving in the IDF - can you imagine the settler outcry if they opted to join (and were accepted)? Already, some Druze have joined - and have faced discrimination within the service .....
But the IDF ranks get adequately filled (although - as you have pointed out - not adequately trained) by the immigrant Jews .... so there is not need to create the distrust & conflict in the ranks that would be likely with Arab Israelis in the IDF ... especially when there is the not uncommon harassing of Palestinians at checkpoints etc .... and the hate that is expressed in things like the T-shirts etc ....

I've noticed the "flexibility" of where you draw lines between anti-Israeli government/politics & anti-semitism. Your exchanges with Sam lead you to classify him as anti-Semitic ... that comes across as more based on personal differences than balanced judgement.

I am very "sensitive" to anti-Semitism ... thanks to Palestinian friends who made sure that I didn't fall in to the trap of classifying all Jews, or even all Israelis, with those who promote & tolerate rejection of Palestinian human rights (usually many of whom express hatred of Palestinians/ Arabs/ Muslims as a generic group ... racism, in other words). As far as I have seen, Sam has very, very rarely used material from genuine anti-Semitic sources .... and his comments really only come close when he has been aggressed by some of your friends ...
As you yourself know, when the tone mounts, & insults are used, people tend to take more polarised positions .....

And some of your friends aggressive approach DOES tend to inhibit freedom to comment freely, because they abuse "opportunities" to increase their hate speech ....

I know that there are some stories I would like to share on C2NN ... but I often hold back because the last thing I want is to provide openings for the kind of Islamophobia & anti-Arab comments that certain of your friends delight in posting .... and have to spend hours countering their hate vitriol & false informationl
 

Stan B (123)
Thursday October 8, 2015, 2:13 am
Evelyn. Your effort to portray Sam as a latter day Mahatma Gandhi doesn't cut the mustard.
I've checked his posting record and it consists of nothing else but anti Israel garbage.
I know what Sam is, Sam knows what he is but you appear either terribly naive or very devious.
Angelika. I've flagged your racist comment at Oct 7, !.42. You and Sam make a great team.
 

Stan B (123)
Thursday October 8, 2015, 2:51 am
Here's Sam's contribution today.

A Message to Israel: Time to Stop Lying to the World
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday October 9, 2015, 3:05 pm
Hi Evelyn :)

The locations of Palestinians' residences are not restricted under Israeli law. Those restrictions come from privately organized gated communities getting discretionary power over who gets to move in. Think of a condo-association with the power to veto sales. It stinks and Israel really needs to wok on anti-discrimination law, but strictly speaking groups of Palestinians could get together and do the same thing, forbidding Jews from moving into their communities. It's not a difference in the law.

Druze volunteers in the IDF have a long history of being highly respected and a tradition of serving in elite infantry forces. The commander of the Golani Brigade, a highly prestigious force, is an Israeli Arab who I understand identifies ethnically as Palestinian. There were legal attempts to keep a Palestinian pilot out of the IAF's covert operations squadron, but those ended when the squadron commander threatened to leave if she were not permitted to join. We know exactly what the outcry is when Arabs volunteer to join the IDF, and it's a welcoming one.

Regarding how I distinguish between anti-Israel rhetoric and antisemitism, I do not presume malice when any other explanation or compatible group of explanations would suffice for the totality of a person's behaviour. I posted six different sets of behaviour by Sam on his other thread which could each individually make sense without malice, but not together.

Hi Sam :)

I understand the offense you take to Angelika's post. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is the norm. Here's a video that I think might explain what's going on there:
https://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong?language=en
It's sadly normal to assume that people with whom one disagrees are insane, stupid, or evil, which is why I'm so careful to avoid doing so as I said to Evelyn above. It's not really malicious. I can go into greater detail on the specific problem if you want.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 10, 2015, 1:36 am
Stan - Typical of your exaggeration tendencies - I don't try to portray Sam as a latter day Gandhi ... His manipulation of titles (which I already mentioned) show an impishness that is far from that - but you seem determined to portray him as totally focussed on posting anti-Semitic stories on a daily basis ... and as I said earlier, the record shows this to be inaccurate. Your much admired friend's record shows "ad nauseam" Islamophobic stories at very, very close to 100%, with several every day ..... but that doesn't ring a warning bell for you because you tend to agree with her on Israel/ Zionist thinking & while you might not be as actively Islamophobic, you lean that way (largely because pro-Zionism, Islamophobia & hasbara supporters tend to have considerable overlap in perspectives ... and fear/hate patterns)

Stephen -
This issue of legal status is a deviation from the subject of the thread, so I don't want to go into detail. However - The way laws are applied are as much part of the law as the actual texts. Arab Israelis cannot, for examplle, get building permits as easily as Jewish Israelis - and they certainly cannot move back to their (demolished) villages of origin, although Israeli settlements/towns can be constructed there. Exclusion of Arab Israelis from such towns & settlements IS discriminatory - yet it is allowed by Israeli law.
The laws allowing appropriation of land are not specific to Palestinians - but are only APPLIED to Palestinians. etc etc ... But you prefer to keep your blinkers on. (Unlike a number of Israeli Jews who care about all human rights - in Israel as well as abroad.)
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 12, 2015, 4:32 am
Slightly inaccurate, Ros -
He was born in Jerusalem - which is neither Palestine nor Israel under international law. But he wanted the courts to rule "Israel" - contrary to international agreements. Another case of "twist the law to fit Zionist interests".
 
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