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Is There Anything More Intrinsically Evil Than Organized Religion?


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: pregnant, woman, denied, life, saving, procedure, tubal, ligation, Catholic, hospital, flushing, MI, Michigan )

Sam
- 1253 days ago - yahoo.com



   

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Comments

Sam H (410)
Friday October 16, 2015, 12:39 pm
Not sure why this was left out:

A pregnant woman in Flushing Michigan was denied a life-saving medical procedure at a Catholic hospital because the procedure was deemed to be “intrinsically evil.”
 

Tracy Riley (54)
Friday October 16, 2015, 1:06 pm
I read this online yesterday, it's astounding how in this day and age a medical facility can let religion rule how it runs. It's like going back to the dark ages where medicine was banned as it is God's will to cure you.
 

Kathleen M (210)
Friday October 16, 2015, 1:41 pm
Shared and noted with disgust! Tubal ligation is "inherently evil?" Since when? How about the death of a young wife and mother? Isn't failure to provide lifesaving medical/surgical care equivalent to murder? Thanks for sharing, Sam. Sheesh!
 

Past Member (0)
Friday October 16, 2015, 4:52 pm
Religion has no place in society but the home period. It pollutes+distorts the mind. It turns normal people into dummies basically. There's been millions+millions of atrocities committed on the back of religion+millions more to come. It's a endless cycle of evil illogical doom. Religion/all scripture books should be abolished. Mankind's worst/most destructive concoction. thx Sam
 

Sam H (410)
Friday October 16, 2015, 5:16 pm
You’re right, Natasha! Compared to religion, even global warming is way less ominous.
 

Animae C (507)
Friday October 16, 2015, 7:04 pm
People are evil, not religions.
 

Sam H (410)
Friday October 16, 2015, 8:47 pm
Isn't this like guns don't kill, people do, AniMae?
 

. (0)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 1:18 am
Basically right, AniMae. Religion is no different than any other human institution, any of which can be used for either good or evil. Religion is a major component of human culture and the world would be infinitely less interesting without it.
 

Rose Becke (141)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 2:43 am
I agree with Natasha
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 4:17 am
Disorgranizedi relgion?
 

Lona G (66)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 5:13 am
If the doctors of the Catholic Genesys Hospital think their own religious belief is more important than the Hippocratic oath they made, they - and any hospital like it - should be cut off from any state or federal budget or medicare/medicaid/ACA subsidies whatsoever, should be made to depend on the alms of the Catholic Church completely and be allowed to help registered Catholics with their own Catholic medical insurance only. You can't have your cake and eat it too, even as a religious institution.

This all hinges on the idea that the Catholic Church still forbids any form of anti-conception, including tubal ligation. Unlike the Protestant Churches, Catholic authorities will not quite scripture to make their case, but adhere to the doctrine as laid out by clergymen before them. However there is no such thing as a "a Catholic healthcare system" within this doctrine and certainly not one that allows the doctrine to be forced down the throats of non-Catholic patients.

Given the open-mindedness of Pope Francis, it is doubtful if the religious fervor of the hospital is at all in line with his thinking. The family should perhaps take it to the pontiff too.
 

Edwin M (346)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 5:46 am
I am not a fan of any organized religion and before I get myself in trouble by expressing my thoughts on the subject I will leave it at that.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 11:16 am
Love your comment, Lona!

Like you, Edwin, I'm not a fan of any organised religion (i.e. "institutionalised religion") ...
The process of "organising" tends to be shaped by developing a power structure that allows/ requires a selected few to interpret and direct for the masses .... Often placing themselves as voices for God (as they perceive their deity) .....

It therefore follows (in my perception) that it isn't the religion itself that is evil, but the human manipulation for conscious or unconscious interests ....

As for abortion: there are sufficient studies that indicate that during an "unwanted pregnancy", the foetus is affected by the psychological state of the mother - and often becomes a child with problems.

So, for me, the question is more - does anyone have the right to enforce an unwanted pregnancy, thus condemning the unborn child to the probable problems of being an unwanted child? Or carrying an impression of "unwantedness", even if the family then adjusts to the presence of the newborn .....

And the religious institution's role? Well - I think it is between the mother and her deity ... not for external "authorities" (all too often males who have no real concept of the symbiosis between a woman and the foetus she carries .....)
 

Freya H (345)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 12:32 pm
I am all too aware of the unfathomable evil that organized religion not only can but frequently does unleash on humanity. The Crusades, witch hunts, inquisitions, clinic bombings, violent and vicious opposition to moral and social progress, even the ultimate horror of the Holocaust - all these were, and in some cases are, done in the name of a god who is supposed to be just and loving. My arse! The human race will finally leave its infancy when the last believer dies and the last church of any kind is either razed or repurposed.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 1:26 pm
This is the slippery slope we have been going down. The Christians are all up in arms about the Muslims that are here and fear of Sharia law, yet we are suppose to smile and be delighted with their own forms of religious views, many times punitive and also life threatening, thrown upon those of us who do not follow their "faith" or ways.

So yes, they can't have their cake and eat it too.....and stop giving these religious institutions tax breaks if the rest of us are having to abide by their archaic laws that are being passed in our Government, by the Religious Right. I think we need to just go Universal Health Care and be done with this bullcrap. They might want to start listening a bit closer to their new Pope whom I don't agree on everything with him but he certainly sounds a lot more compassionate than the ones in the past.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 1:27 pm
thanks Sam. It's been all pretty much said here already, the Hippocratic oath was also the first thing came to my mind. I do think her case, even a law suit if it comes to that, has excellent chances. This is just unbelievable and in fact criminal.
One can only hope that there won't be lasting impacts of any negative kind after all the anxiety and stress the woman was put through!
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 1:36 pm
When the US already has a theocracy in place in many vital institutions, why would they want to fight another then?
 

Maria Teresa Schollhorn (42)
Saturday October 17, 2015, 1:42 pm
I agree with Allison Steinberg. "Hospital serve the public and should not hold religious directives above best medical practices or decision that should be made between a doctor and patient. There's no room for Catholic bishops in that equation".
Thank you Sam.
 

Summer M (0)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 2:28 am
Ya know - this HORRENDOUS GARBAGE that these "religious" humans "preach" - hummmmmmm.......makes one wonder if ORGANIZED RELIGION ain't the GREATEST CON EVER PERPETRATED ON THE HUMAN RACE.........AMEN.....and this from someone raised very, very STRICT CATHOLIC............
 

Ellen J (62)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 3:27 am
I echo a lot of the thoughts above - the Hippocratic oath, religions being turned into something they weren't supposed to be used for, our slippery slope...yikes. I was absolutely disgusted when I read the article before I saw it here. :/ Good grief. Thanks for sharing, Sam.
 

Louise D (44)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 4:12 am
Since when has a medical procedure is been intrinsically evil? I take it they are quote St Thomas Aquinas whose knowledge on basic biology was limited and as for medicine they were using leeches and recommended saying 10 hail Marys as a cure it all. I hardly think medieval theology has any place in 21st Century medicine. Really if a Doctor comes out with crap like that they should not be practicing medicine.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 5:40 am
I don't think there's anything more hypocritical than organized religion! Noted! Thanks, Sam!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 5:49 am
Funny you should say that, Kathleen.

Since Lona's reference to the Hippocratic oath earlier, I've been thinking that the doctors cencerned in this case (and similar ones) only signed up to a Hypocritic Oath, not a Hippocratic one ...
 

Marco C (31)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 6:54 am
Institutionalized religion gives the primitive and shallow minded safe harbor. They hide in the ambiguity and grey areas to promote their perversities until their extreme zealotry attracts enough attention from sane society to put a lid on the aberrant behavior. Kim Davis and her antics being one of the latest to achieve national and international attention.

The collective nature of these institutions give the misguided the impression of authority, power and legitimacy. Too bad for the victims of this extremism. The evil spirit of the Salem Witch Hunt is alive and well.

There is benevolence in our global religions, when their ideology remains untainted. Sadly, there are always a percentage of perverse attention seekers that go unchecked who will misinterpret, abuse and damage before they are reigned in.
 

Janis K (129)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 9:38 am
Agree with Natasha, thanks Sam
 

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 10:57 am
DAMN Catholic Hospitals! The Roman Catholic Church is using Economic Emergency in the U.S. to TAKE OVER ONE HOSPITAL, AFTER ANOTHER, AFTER ANOTHER, AFTER ANOTHER....
This is of course a REAL DANGER to Women, and to the ENTIRE MEDICAL PRACTICE of Religion-free, Superstition-free Rational Medicine.

In many places, THERE IS NO NEARBY HOSPITAL OR CLINIC THAT IS NOT RUN BY CATHOLICS.
Catholics "combine" with whatever group was previously running the hospital or clinic. THEN THEY IMPOSE THEIR OWN RULES.
They FORCE ALL THE MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS to sign that they will ABIDE BY CATHOLIC RULES, even if they are not Catholic and previously didn't have such rules!!!! This is even Nurses and lowly staff members... The Catholic Church for example reserves the right to FIRE ANYONE THAT'S GAY OR SUPPORTS GAY MARRIAGE....

So options for Women, EVEN TO LEARN ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL, or about their own bodies, are INCREASINGLY LIMITED, especially in Rural areas....
Doctors ARE FORBIDDEN EVEN TO MENTION Abortion as an option.....
Again, whether they are Catholic or not! THEY HAVE TO SIGN THAT PLEDGE... NOT to go against Roman Catholic Church "Teachings".....
 

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 10:59 am
Re-posted in the Care2 group "Atheist/Agnostic Alliance".
Anyone is welcome in that group, except for TROLLS, you have to be screened first.
 

Birgit W (160)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 12:58 pm
Religious institutions should never be allowed to dictate their own views on people.
Dandelion says it all. Thanks.
 

. (0)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 1:25 pm
If the hospital refused numerous times to do this procedure, why didn't this woman go find another hospital right away? Why would she even think a Catholic hospital would do this procedure? She now wants to team with the ACLU and bully the hospital into going against it's moral principles? It is a CATHOLIC hospital for God's sake! Find a secular hospital next time lady. And if you desire an abortion find one that allows its doctors to ignore the Hippocratic oath.

This article in no way is a condemnation of religion, more a condemnation of bullying an institution that should have a RIGHT to be run according to its moral and religious principles. These hospitals care for hundreds of thousands of patients, would you really take that care away from people for the sake of a handful of people who think they can subvert those values? One has to be pretty ignorant to expect that every procedure would be available at a Catholic hospital, and pretty selfish to demand those that aren't.
 

pam w (139)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 2:06 pm
Swine! How DARE they impose their religion on patients in need?

 

Lois Jordan (63)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 3:37 pm
Noted. Thanks, Sam.

I left god & religion years and years ago, partly due to the patriarchal tyranny. BMutiny made an excellent comment. It's all a big scam.

When my son fell ill and 9-1-1 was called and paramedics arrived, they were told to take him to the local medical center rather than the Catholic hospital. Both were equal distances away. They were repeatedly told, too, because my son was insistent.
We had to wait awhile to follow, only to find that he was taken to the Catholic hospital against his wishes. The doctor charged with my son's care said he decided not to do any surgery, because he was a 'lost cause.' He didn't believe my son would survive. So, a doctor was found at the medical center who would do the surgery, and he was transported.
Surgery was successful and my son is doing very well now. So, while I initially thought that women should just stay away from Catholic hospitals, now I know that men should, too!
 

Angelika R (143)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 5:05 pm
OMG Lois! Glad you eventualllymade the right decisin nd things turned out well.
So much for the statement above " One has to be pretty ignorant to expect that every procedure would be available at a Catholic hospital, and pretty selfish to demand those that aren't."
Glad you were selfish enought to demand your son's right to life!! Silly those who expect any doc at a Catholic hospital to fulfil the Hippocratic oath!
 

Janet B (0)
Sunday October 18, 2015, 7:58 pm
Thanks
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 19, 2015, 3:24 am
Lois -
What a terrible example ...... it must have been horrific to live through. I often wonder how much money gets slipped to ambulance services to bring patients to a particular clinic/ hospital rather than another in the US .... The nerve of them, to go against specific request/ instruction ... And I'm so glad you kept a clear head & insisted on going to the other centre rather than taking that doctor's opinion as definitive.

I would remind Donn that this tubal ligation was for medical reasons, on expert medical advice - not just an optional contraception method. Anyone going to a Catholic hospital repeatedly for optional contraception services might be considered as pushing against Catholic principles .... but THIS case was due to life-threatening risks.

But having said that, I can't say I'm all that surprised. I've come across medical services by Catholic organisations in areas with high rates of HIV/AIDS .... where they refuse to provide condoms as part of the struggle against the spread of AIDS. Their participation in campaigns against AIDS consists of promoting abstinence ..... Their catchment areas, & their maternity & neonatal services, have higher rates of HIV/AIDS ....
 

james C (8)
Monday October 19, 2015, 7:52 am
If I was to go out on the street a kill someone, then say that GOD told me to do it, I would end up in jail for life, but when a church make rules, that kill people in their hospitals, that OK?
 

pam w (139)
Monday October 19, 2015, 8:17 am
More evil has been done in the name of religion than for any other reason. Superstitious nonsense used to control large groups of people....nothing more.

You do NOT need religion to be a ''good person.'' But, it's very handy if you wish to seize power for yourself, not to mention WEALTH.
 

Lindsay K (6)
Monday October 19, 2015, 2:11 pm
I don't think that in this day and age medical facilities like this one should be allowed to refuse treatment in this way, or even comment like this. However not all religious groups of anew type should be tarred with the same brush. Many of them do a great deal of good and make a real difference for good in their communities.
 

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday October 21, 2015, 4:20 pm
Now also in Care2 Causes,
treated at length and IN CONTEXT of the CONTINUING CATHOLIC CHURCH TAKEOVER OF AMERICAN HOSPITALS ONE AFTER ANOTHER:

"With the fight over abortion capturing considerable public attention, the growing issue of problems within the Catholic health care system is flying under the radar, and it shouldn’t.

The issue is twofold, as it represents both an alarming consolidation of health care services and a decline in quality of care as a result of that consolidation."
.
Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/yet-another-woman-denied-care-at-a-catholic-hospital.html#ixzz3pFGeVBTa
==============
THIS IS NOT THE ONLY CASE OF A WOMAN WITH LIFE-THREATENING SITUATION BEING DENIED MEDICAL TREATMENT BY ROMAN CATHOLIC SUPERSTITIOUS DOGMA.
Some Women actually have DIED from being refused Medical treatment AUTOMATICALLY AVAILABLE IN HOSPITALS NOT [not YET!] TAKEN OVER BY THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
The Doctors' hands are TIED, even if they are totally non-Catholic and DID THESE PROCEDURES BEFORE THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TAKEOVER of their Hospitals...
==========
In many areas, Donn M., CATHOLIC HOSPITALS AFTER TAKEOVER, ARE THE ONLY HOSPITALS FOR MILES AROUND. And many patients are so sick they CAN'T BE MOVED. And maybe their Insurance doesn't cover their being moved to Hospitals miles away, etc.
Donn, you are just SO FULL OF ABSOLUTE, BLITHERING NONSENSE, one hardly knows where to begin with you!
EVERY Catholic hospital has MANY NON-CATHOLIC EMPLOYEES.
PARTICULARLY those Hospitals that BEFORE THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TAKEOVER, were SECULAR like most Hospitals!
This isn't the Middle Ages, DUH!, and Catholic Hospitals aren't being staffed exclusively by Monks and Nuns!!!!!
NOBODY is ever asking a Catholic Doctor to perform a procedure against their religion, AS THERE ARE PLENTY OF DOCTORS IN THE SAME HOSPITAL WHO WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PERFORMING THE PROCEDURE.
The thing is, when the Holy Roman Catholic Church TAKES OVER an already-functioning Hospital, takes it over for financial reasons, ALL THE DOCTORS AND ALL THE STAFF ARE FORCED TO SIGN AN AGREEMENT WITH CATHOLIC PRINCIPLES. In order to KEEP THEIR JOBS, you see. OTHERWISE THEY GET FIRED. Whether they AGREE with those STUPID SUPERSTITIOUS NON-SCIENTIFIC MEDIEVAL "PRINCIPLES", or NOT.

It is THE DOCTORS AND THE STAFF AT THE HOSPITAL - as well as the Patients - who are being "BULLIED" as you put it, to PRACTICE MEDICINE NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR ETHICAL IDEALS.
It is THE CATHOLIC ADMINISTRATION, and the CATHOLIC HIERARCHY THAT OBVIOUSLY KNOWS NOTHING - ZILCH - ABOUT MODERN MEDICINE - that is DOING THE BULLYING.
The Staff and Doctors I should think, WELCOME an ACLU lawsuit, SO THAT IF IT WINS, THEY CAN GO RIGHT BACK TO PRACTICING MEDICINE THE WAY THEY DID BEFORE THE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TAKEOVER.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy - WHETHER YOU ARE A CATHOLIC OR NOT - this self-appointed group of Reactionary Old Men, have NO BUSINESS interfering in the Practice of Medicine, or in CONTROLLING WOMEN'S BODIES THAT AREN'T EVEN CATHOLIC. Or Men's bodies either, for that matter. THEY ARE MIS-USING THE GREAT WEALTH OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH to basically BUY HOSPITALS that are struggling financially, so they can then go ahead and IMPOSE THEIR ARCHAIC AND VERY HARMFUL IDIOTIC ATTITUDES...

MONEY AND POWER. Of the small group of men enjoying the Wealth and Perks their position gives them in the Catholic Hierarchy [even if it's the Churches' Wealth, theoretically, they have super-nice homes, travel, etc., they're not poor monks & hermits...]. It is THEY, CLEARLY, who are the ones doing the BULLYING.
That MUST BE STOPPED before more people DIE from Catholic-Church-Hierarchy-imposed MEDICAL MALPRACTICE. That equally troubles the Doctors and Nurses and Staff members FORCED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO COMPLY AGAINST THEIR WILL...
 

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday October 21, 2015, 4:46 pm
In case "you don't believe me" - this is SO HORRIFIC, and SO HARD TO BELIEVE IT'S ALLOWED IN A DEMOCRACY! -
Here is the ENTIRE CARE2 CAUSES ARTICLE, which I assure you is WELL-RESEARCHED, and is CONFIRMED FROM MANY, MANY OTHER SOURCES:

'The world was horrified by the death of Savita Halappanavar in 2012 when the Indian woman sought an abortion in Ireland and was denied, ultimately dying for lack of treatment, but there’s a crisis closer to home:
One in six Americans rely on Catholic hospitals for care,
and those facilities implement the same rigid restrictions on care seen in Ireland.

Denial of treatment, or forced treatment, is a growing problem in the United States thanks to multiple mergers in the health care system, with Catholic chains snapping up secular hospitals and corporations to create a health care behemoth.
The result is a landscape where women with reproductive health care issues won’t necessarily get the treatments they need, sometimes at great personal risk.

Now, yet another case of denial of care is emerging, in the instance of Jessica Mann, a pregnant woman with brain tumors. Her medical team recommends that she receive a tubal ligation at the time of her scheduled c-section to eliminate the risk of a future pregnancy, which could threaten her life. The hospital where she’s receiving care, Genesys Regional Medical Center, won’t let her surgeon perform the procedure, on the grounds that it violates the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Healthcare. She, like a growing number of American women, is facing off against a massive health care system that’s stacked against her.

With the fight over abortion capturing considerable public attention, the growing issue of problems within the Catholic health care system is flying under the radar, and it shouldn’t. The issue is twofold, as it represents both an alarming consolidation of health care services and a decline in quality of care as a result of that consolidation. Advocates of the free market in particular should be concerned about the first, as it reflects a lack of market diversity for people who prefer to shop around for health care services and make informed choices based on multiple options.
When one hospital chain controls most of the facilities in a given geographical region, everyone’s a customer by default, like it or not. Such consolidation also tends to drive prices up, which doesn’t serve patients.

The quality of care issue is a more serious one. In order to be termed Catholic hospitals — and to receive support from the church — facilities need to follow the ERDs, though there’s room for interpretation and facilities can offer a variety of services. Some things are off limits, however, such as contraception, sterilization and abortions. That includes cases of rape and incest, instances in which abortion could save a patient’s life, and treatment for miscarriages — if it involves “interference” with a fertilized ovum, it’s off limits. In 2013, the ACLU sued in the instance of a Michigan woman who was provided with inadequate care while miscarrying, an act of negligence that could have been fatal, or might have cost her future fertility.

These directives also require hospitals to provide food, water and life support to patients even over the wishes of their families, leading to situations like the case of Marlise Munoz, who spent most of her pregnancy in a coma. Thanks to Texas law, her doctors were forced to ignore her husband’s expressed wish that she be taken off life support, instead waiting until after they delivered the baby to allow her to pass away in peace.

The ERDs mean that people without health care experience impose religious beliefs on health care providers and patients. They also result in situations where providers are obligated to enforce these beliefs or run the risk of excommunication — as happened to Sister Margaret McBride when she okayed a life-saving abortion — or find their hospitals stripped of their Catholic identity.
And they means that patients can’t make informed choices about their health care unless they want to seek treatment at a different facility, which isn’t always an option:
Their physicians may not have admitting privileges at other hospitals, they might not be able to access care at other hospitals as a result of distance or insurance limitations, or other factors could be involved.

Existing law sets standards for mandatory treatment in some cases, generally requiring that hospitals receiving federal funding provide stabilizing treatment to patients regardless of ability to pay if they’re in a crisis situation.
However, the rise of the Catholic health care system raises the question of whether Congress needs to go further, perhaps explicitly requiring hospitals to provide full health care services or lose their legal accreditation — because no patient should be denied treatment on the grounds of someone else’s medical beliefs.'

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/yet-another-woman-denied-care-at-a-catholic-hospital.html#ixzz3pFSKoE9O
==========
DAMN THE DICTATORIAL, MISOGYNISTIC, INCOMPATIBLE WITH DEMOCRATIC OR HUMAN VALUES, HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH HIERARCHY! DAMN THEM! DAMN THEM! DAMN THEM TO ETERNAL HELL - and I only wish there WAS such a thing, ESPECIALLY FOR THEM!'
It's ALL THEY RICHLY DESERVE - for throwing around their GREAT WEALTH AND THEIR ILLEGITIMATE POWER...BULLYING those who fall under their ROTTEN SWAY... They are ROTTEN LIARS and who gave those CORRUPT IDIOTS the "right" to say what is and what isn't the will of some imagined "sky god" of theirs?! and impose that made-up aggrandizing fantasy on EVERYone else...
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 2, 2016, 4:22 am
THANKS FOR SHARING
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 2, 2016, 4:22 am
THANKS SAM
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 2, 2016, 11:14 am
THANKS
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 2, 2016, 11:14 am
THANKS FOR SHARING
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 2, 2016, 11:14 am
THANKS FOR SHARING
 
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