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UN-Believable: Sexual Misconduct By U.N. Peacekeepers


World  (tags: children, 'HUMANRIGHTS!', UnitedNations, violence, Brothels, UN Peacekeepers Conduct )

Jon
- 3968 days ago - english.ohmynews.com
It will be challenging. Just between February 2003 and October 2005 alone, there were 221 cases of sexual misconduct. Impunity was often the outcome. The U.N. peacekeepers are immune from local laws. Some countries don't even have sexual assault laws.



   

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Comments

Jon H (10)
Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:04 pm
In Bosnia and Herzegovina, 30 percent of the people who visited brothels were U.N. or NATO staff. In fact, the U.N. police operated brothels there and trafficked people
 

Jaclin S (230)
Saturday July 5, 2008, 5:44 pm
Absolutely WRONG - these are supposedly the people who should be protecting and looking out for others. Unbelievable - is it a case of do what I say not what I do??? Thanx Jon H Blessings.
 

Jon H (10)
Saturday July 5, 2008, 10:10 pm
This is one reason why the Human Rights Network is sponsoring the petition to require UN workers be responsible to local tribunals over seen by the ICC.
Here is the link: http://tinyurl.com/56xt66
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Saturday July 5, 2008, 11:26 pm
http://tinyurl.com/56xt66
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 1:02 am
Thank you Jon. Noted
 

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 2:18 am
So the UN is now the thug patrol. Sad when criminals betray themselves as soldiers.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 4:12 am
Just as I thought, UN approved/condoned thuggery.

Thanks Michael
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:11 am
This behavior by military and U.N. peacekeepers has been going on for a very long time. As wrong as it is it has always been in one form or another and will always be.

The only way to eradicate this practice is to educate these poverty stricken people so they know what to do......All of those harmed are those who live in fear of their own & now these peace keepers.

Plant trees for life........
 

Michele DiGiorgi (320)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:59 am
TY Charles & Jon, I have noted. And have seen this before in the news, it's just appalling to see, and very very disturbing.

Blessings to all,
FreeSpiritRunning...
 

Nancy Gray (35)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:13 am
Thanks Kelli and Jon...
 

Jim Phillips (3247)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:15 am
Petition already signed at:

http://tinyurl.com/56xt66



 

Jim Phillips (3247)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:15 am
Those UN Peacekeepers, for those that commit crimes of rape and abuse against women and children, should be tried in court and sentenced immediately to prison. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior.

TY, Jon.

 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 12:56 pm
Childre are one of our most precious jewels and represent the future...when we exploit them for our own needs and abuse them horrifically we damage our chance of a loving world...thanks to all that signed the petition to rally for the innocence and beauty of children and the tenderness of a loving world
 

Louise L (48)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 2:09 pm
So sad that troops meant to bring hope instead bring destruction. The first law that needs to be changed is that they cannot be prosecuted....they should be. Unfortunately, the United States military always leaves behind unwanted children, many of whom are murdered by the native people, and not all of them were conceived from love. Not sure there is a solution....thanks, Jon.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 3:06 pm

Jon wrote: "In Bosnia and Herzegovina, 30 percent of the people who visited brothels were U.N. or NATO staff. In fact, the U.N. police operated brothels there and trafficked people"

I'm not sure I understand the relevance, Jon. Are you saying that because they ran and visited brothels and trafficked people, there was less sexual abuse, particularly of children, in Bosnia and Herzegovina than in African conflict zones? Of course it was the most powerful people in the area who patronized the brothels -- most people couldn't afford to and had to struggle just to get something to eat and to survive.

If you go to the petition site and click on "letter" to view the whole petition, you'll find that it includes the following paragraph:

"If feasible, given the circumstances in each region, provide UN personnel a rotation duty cycle that allows them a safe period to seek out legal forms of relaxation conducive to their religion, country of origin or region of service. Any lack in facilities for such recreation to be provided for under UN supervision in direct connection to UN Posts."

I had signed, cross-posted, and sent the petition along to friends before I noticed that paragraph, but on closer reading it appeared to me that the "recreational facilities" it called upon the UN to provide for the peacekeepers, could include brothels. When I asked about it, I was directed to a discussion topic where I learned that before it had been rewritten, the original suggestion for that paragraph has specifically called for brothels.

While I believe that there should be ICC jurisdiction and accountability for anyone who abuses children, including peacekeepers, I don't see how providing them with recreational facilities of any sort, whether or not such facilities include brothels, would stop them from abusing children or even take away their excuse for abusing children. While some have claimed that it was their lack of access to their own culture that caused them to abuse children, others who have been convicted of similar crimes, such as European government officials in many countries, or priests and high level Vatican officials in the U.S. and elsewhere, had no such alibi.

I stopped promoting the petition when I realized that it could be interpreted (particularly by those UN peacekeepers who are already in the habit of operating or frequenting brothels) as calling for brothels, because I don't believe that having brothels or recreational facilities in any conflict zone has ever been proven to decrease the rate of violence and child abuse, and because for the cost of putting a safe-sex, non-exploitive, well-regulated brothel in a conflict zone, you could easily set up another sorely needed refugee camp or a field hospital, which I believe would do a lot more good.

I see no point in catering to the perpetrators and I think that anyone who believes their lame excuses is a fool. There is no excuse for harming children.

The abuses are abuses of power. Power corrupts. There should be checks on power wherever possible. But providing abusers with recreational facilities, even ones as harmless as soccer balls or religious texts, no less more outlets for their sexual gratification when they already have too many, seems to me to be ignoring, if not spitting on the victims, and seeing things only from the perspective of and with deference to the perpetrators.

I believe that the perpetrators need to be regulated, held accountable, and punished, not catered to in any way.

But that's just me.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 3:36 pm

Remember that the peacekeepers in African conflict zones already have much better rotational tours of duty and working conditions than the child soldiers in those areas, who are nothing more than slaves. Child soldiers are usually abducted. Peacekeepers volunteer. Unlike child soldiers are never sent home for R&R or complete their tours of duty. Child soldiers are often forced at gunpoint to commit murders, rapes, and other atrocities. Nobody is forcing the peacekeepers to commit atrocities, they do it because they choose to of their own free will.

ICC jurisdiction might provide some accountability that could hold peacekeepers responsible (but not prevent) their abuses, but providing them with recretional facilities will not stop them from kidnapping children and selling them to warlords to be child soldiers, or raping them and then selling them as sex slaves. These abuses are common to many groups in such areas, but I have seen no suggestions from anyone that providing shorter tours of duty in conflict zones or better recreational facilities might stop Hutus from killing Tutsis or take away their excuse for doing so.

I do not believe that this petition was well thought out, I apologize for having promoted it before I realized that, and I will no longer promote it.

Even if the paragraph calling for recreation facilities is deleted, the fact that it was ever included in the first place casts grave doubt on the credibility of the petition sponsors, just as my own failure to examine the petition closely casts grave doubt upon my own judgment. I am human, I make mistakes at times, and I hope I am mature enough to admit when I do and to apologize. I believe that this was one of those times when I made a serious error of judgment and I apologize.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 3:50 pm

I also apologize for the typos. I am angry that such a worthy cause would be treated so cavalierly by the sponsors, and that I was taken in by it.

It is not uncommon in the U.S. legislative process for a bill to be introduced in Congress that has a very worthy purpose, but for a rider to be inserted into the bill that has an evil purpose. I should have carefully examined every line of that petition before sending it on, and it is my fault for not doing so. I also should have verified the credibility of the sponsors, and if they lacked credibility, or their credibility could only be verified by other Care2 members whose own credibility can not be verified, I should have become more suspicious immediate. A cause this worthy and inflammatory can lead the unwary to drop their guard, and I did.

Once more, and forever if necessary, I apologize. I cared about the kids, and because I cared about the kids I was lured into signing and promoting a petition that was, at least in part, designed to lend credibility to and give comfort to the abusers. I'm sorry.
 

David S (55)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 3:55 pm
I think these behaviors are fundamental consequences of unequal power and hence abuse of people who have been made particularly vulnerable by people who already use power in sociopathic and predatory ways. I have to agree simply giving them additional "safe recreational opportunities" does not in any way resolve the very real issues that led to the abuse in the first place.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 4:08 pm

Thanks for letting us know this, Mark. I, too, heavily promoted the petition, after reading only the body of it -- not realizing that separate conditions were contained in the letter.

For those who have already signed, who now wish to change their minds, you should be aware that you can revisit the petition and click on the "Sponsors," where you will be directed to an email address. You have the right to request that they remove your name.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:26 pm
The ACTUAL header in this Korean publication is: UN-believable [opinion] Sexual misconduct by U.N. Peacekeepers...Note the difference?...
I have signed the petition via link submitted by Nemo. Thank you Nemo... http://tinyurl.com/56xt66
 

Cheryl A (33)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:36 pm
TOTALLY SICKENING. WHERE IS THE PETITION? I AM NOT SURE IF I SIGNED OR NOT. THESE PEOPLE ARE TRULY DISGUSTING.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:50 pm
Oooops! thank you also Jon and Mark..(Nemo, somehow, managed to drop a 'live' link. Too convenient) but then again there is mention of 'LEGAL forms of relaxation' in that paragraph...Does this constitute trafficing or children?
 

Jacquie S (22)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:35 pm
This is shocking - Who will watch the watchers?
 

Aletta Kraan (146)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:45 pm
Disgusting !!!!
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:48 pm

David, in many countries prostitution is legal, and in some countries there are no laws against child molestation. And of course in conflict zones there may be no such thing as enforceable laws.

Since I donate money to UNICEF and UNHCR, I would not want my money going to fund brothels for UN peacekeepers, and if it went for other types of recreational facilities, I would hope they would be for the benefit of the children and the refugees, not for the peacekeepers. If I wanted to help the peacekeepers, I'd look for a Peacekeepers Benevolent Association to donate to. I prefer to help the kids and the victims, rather than the abusers and the authorities, and the case the latter seem to be one and the same.

 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:54 pm
Noted with alot of anger. Thank Kelli for sharing.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:56 pm

To put it more bluntly, if the peacekeepers need or want soccer balls or pogo sticks, I think their respective countries should provide them, not the UN.

If the peacekeepers need or want religious texts like Bibles or Korans, I think their religious denominations should provide them, not the UN.

And if the peacekeepers need or want brothels, or if somebody thinks that providing them with brothels would take away their excuse for raping kids, I think that person should reach into their own pockets and provide them, or take up a collection among the peacekeepers, because I'm low income, I'm not not even in the habit of paying for sex for myself, and I'm dammed sure not going to pay for it for somebody else.

Is that clear enough?
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:14 pm

Carole, I followed your instructions and asked that my name be removed from the petition.

Is there a procedure to follow if the sponsors do not remove my name?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:27 pm

Mark, first of all, I want to say that I feel very badly about this turn of events. As you know, I promoted this petition with blogs at Google, MySpace, a Care2 share, and sent it to over 350 Care2 friends. My friends trust me and my advice, so I feel that I have let them down.

As for removing your signature, of course, I suggest that you keep the copy of your email to the sponsor(s) that was forwarded to you, and check the petition within a few days to assure that your signature was, in fact, removed.

Care2 runs the Petition Site, so should your request not be acknowledged, I would suggest you copy them with your confirming email and protest.
 

Jeannine P (44)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:37 pm
:(
 

Jon H (10)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:44 pm
Once again Mark you fail to read an article, if you follow the site you will find the comment you tribute to me above was in fact written by Joan M. Dawson
the author. She also includes 5 links at the bottom for more information. In this series I have 4 links to a variety of articles addressing legitimate concerns originally brought forward as arguments against the petition. There is also one sent to various friends lists from "Save the Children" organization by Julia

http://www.care2.com/news/member/101531794/755741 which explains with the various links the need for such things as interactions between peace keepers and indigenous people, a sharing of cultures for better understanding, whether a soccer ball or as you so eloquently phrased it once a headless goat.
You had a chance to vet the petition in a very small group before it was to be presented outside of HRN you did and found it so worthwhile you chose to take it to C2NN, providing the INITIAL link and sending to your frinds. None of which was asked of you by anybody involved. So you had your chance to provide your objections and DIDN'T. If you choose to not be involved you have been asked multiple times by a variety of people to not be so. You have been told your name will be removed. This is not about you Mark its about children and a lack of any international body to monitor the behavior the UN peace keepers and personnel. You obviously have no knowledge of the systems history which this article begins to point out and if you follow the other 4 on Care2 you (well maybe not you) but anyone actually interested can see the quagmire the lack of involvement by an oversight agency is creating. ABOUT the children Mark not you.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:45 pm

I cannot emphasize enough how disappointing this is to me. Although I've had my own problems with some of the sponsors, I pushed that to the background and promoted this in full earnest.

To me, the "cause" is always much more important than personal grudges.
 

Jon H (10)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:02 pm
This article chronicles the early days of peace keeper involvement in prostitution rings in Bosnia it then goes on to explain other areas of involvement. It also explains the problems peace keepers face in these zones. It is but 1 in a series that will end in the reasoning behind each article in the petition and lastly explain who the individual from the ICC who suggested the changes in article 7, in fact wrote it, all that is lacking right now is her permission to post her name.

To continue for THIS article though notice point 5. The first sentence will become important in information from other articles.

1. In Liberia, U.N. peacekeepers had sex with young girls, some as young as 12 years old. A trade would consist of giving the girl $10 or some food. Many of the staff visited the brothels in their U.N. vehicles.

2. In the Congo, the alleged cases of sexual exploitation include child porn rings, sex shows and rape of babies.(2)

3. In Timor, at least 20 babies fathered by peacekeepers have been abandoned. There have also been allegations of child sex abuse, bestiality and coercion into prostitution.(3)

4. In Haiti, peacekeepers offer young teens a few dollars and some food in exchange for sex.(4) Half of the population lives on a dollar a day. The situation is ripe for exploitation.

5. These peacekeepers are sent to areas of conflict, or post-conflict, which can present stress and difficulties to the peacekeepers. However, these are also areas where the local population is particularly vulnerable. Many have lost their homes and their land. Many have been physically, sexually or psychologically abused already. That peacekeepers would exploit the very people they are meant to help is unacceptable.

The U.N.'s Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who stepped down in January, promised more disciplinary action. However, little change has been seen since the start of the scandal. We can hope that Ban Ki-moon will provide the much-needed reform he's been promising.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:10 pm

Why was the letter so different from the petition?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:15 pm

I am offended by this "tactic," and too similar to current procedures used by corrupt governments.

I'm requesting removal of my signature as well.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:15 pm

In all honesty?

I rarely read the letters attached to petitions, because I expect them to be "form letters," merely substantiating the ocntents of the petition itself.

With all of the petitions I've ever signed, NEVER have I run across a supporting letter requesting more than the petition itself.
 

Jon H (10)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:26 pm
"If feasible, given the circumstances in each region, provide UN personnel a rotation duty cycle that allows them a safe period to seek out legal forms of relaxation conducive to their religion, country of origin or region of service. Any lack in facilities for such recreation to be provided for under UN supervision in direct connection to UN Posts." Yes Mark that is what it says, which part do you find offensive? In another article in this series you will find that includes helping to develop children's centers were they can go for safety, work groups between local leaders and UN personnel to exchange cultural information, a request that: And, of course, the active participation of national authorities in the Commission’s country-specific workings will be essential. This will give further weight to the dialogue at country level between the respective authorities and the international community. I hope the Commission will also find ways to reach out to local civil society, the private sector, and others in a position to contribute." From another article in the series thus far presented. Also included is this:
Most countries have little interest in seeing their peacekeepers brought to trial for crimes committed while 'doing good deeds' elsewhere in the world," according to Refugees International. It doesn't seem to matter that they are U.N. peacekeepers committing human rights violations.

According to BBC News, the U.N. said it was only aware of two cases where sex offenders were sent to jail when the peacekeepers were repatriated, although there could be others.(5)

These peacekeepers number 80,000 strong and are stationed in 17 missions in the world. Their units come from all over and represent diverse cultures. The peacekeepers brought their cultural beliefs with them, and it's true that may play a role. However, they also created a culture, one that many activists are aware of, a culture of silence. The threat of punishment was so low it was disregarded. Discipline within the units was lacking, and, in fact, the men's behavior was accepted as being natural. The peacekeepers could, therefore, exploit their victims without being held accountable for their actions to their commanders, local laws, or their country's laws. As more peacekeepers took advantage of this situation, the behaviors were further enforced. Now, it's believed that these types of abuses are found in every U.N. peacekeeping mission in the world. The cases have been documented by the U.N., human rights groups and journalists.
And lastly from Save the Children: 3 Tackling the root causes or
drivers of abuse
To address the overall prevalence of child sexual
exploitation and abuse in fragile states and
emergencies,we need to think beyond the
humanitarian and peacekeeping sector.As our
research has shown, this abuse is inextricably linked
with broader child protection failures embedded
within the communities in which it occurs.
Governments, donors and financial institutions should
invest more resources in longer-term solutions to the
root causes or drivers of abuse.
A range of services and structures is required to keep
children safe in what Save the Children terms a child
protection system.36 This approach is also advocated
by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees.37 The
form that a child protection system takes will naturally
vary between countries according to the resources
available and the priority given to different protection
issues. However, there are some common components
that need to be considered:
• political commitment to the protection of
children in all settings, including homes,
communities, schools,workplaces and institutions
• budget allocations to child protection services
and mechanisms to ensure that they are adequately
staffed and resourced
• administrative representation of child
protection at all relevant levels, with clear leadership
and well-defined responsibilities at each level,
working according to guidelines and policies
developed at the national level
• protection services that are easily accessible
by children and adults at the community level.
In particular, children, parents and others in the
community must know about these services and
what they can offer in the way of help, and have
confidence that they will be effective
• the coordination of child protection services with
other forms of support available from the health,
education, social welfare and justice sectors, to
ensure complementarity and to avoid duplication
11 RECOMMENDATIONS 25
What are child protection services?
Child protection services aim to prevent,
respond to, and resolve the abuse, neglect,
exploitation and violence experienced by
children in all settings.They are specialist services
discrete from the child protection sector but,
of necessity,working very closely with other
sectors.
They include, for example, medical, psychosocial
and legal support to victims of violence and
abuse; fostering and adoption of orphans;
outreach work with street children to help them
access livelihood, education and other support;
awareness-raising and livelihood support to
prevent unsafe child migration and trafficking;
reuniting separated children with their families;
reintegrating child soldiers and other children
associated with fighting forces into their
communities; establishing community care
committees and other local services to help
identify vulnerable children and help them to
access support; income, social and other support
to parents to enable them to provide and care
for their children in a safe family environment.
• legal reform and policy development, to create
the legislation, policies, codes, procedures and
practice standards that generate behaviours
necessary to keep children safe
• capacity-building programmes, dealing with
themes such as children’s rights and child protection
legislation to enable all those involved, including
teachers, law enforcement professionals, social
workers, health professionals and employers, to
recognise the signs of child abuse, and to know
what to do next
• public education and awareness-raising
initiatives, involving media, to create an informed,
enlightened public who are aware of all aspects of
violence against children, who can contribute
actively with their own ideas and insights, and who
can be important allies in tackling the problem
• gender awareness and sensitisation, to tackle
discrimination associated with abuse.This should
include work with boys and men to address
dominant attitudes towards women, as well as
work to strengthen the social status of women
and girls
• a national research programme, to generate
much better information on the scale and nature of
child protection problems and to provide robust
evidence on successful approaches to challenge
those problems
• the active involvement of children in the
development and implementation of a national
protection system, to ensure its credibility and
applicability.This includes support for the work of
child-led groups and organisations that are created
to combat violence against children
• partnership between government and civil society,
including NGOs, community-based organisations,
parents and childcare professionals, to complement
the work of government in fulfilling children’s right
to protection.

For those wishing to look at the petition and its articles you will see a very close similarity with he proposals made by Save the Children. The petition has points NOT addressed in others the main one being specific targeted names of people to whom it will be presented and the request that the ICC (who is empowered to establish local Tribunals) be empowered to take over the investigation and prosecution at a local level, under International Statute, trying the perpetrators where evidence can be presented directly against them. There is also a request that a mandatory training and cultural sensitization program (now conducted elsewhere) be moved to the countries and cultures the UN peace keepers will be expected to protect.

 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:26 pm

I agree that the children are the most important thing.

The petition sponsors and authors disagree and feel that the peacekeepers and their cultural and recreational needs are the most important thing.

Their focus is on the peacekeepers and their lame-ass legal defense, not on the kids.

They were not willing to focus on providing ICC jurisdiction and omit the part about recreational facilities for the peacekeepers.

Had they been willing to focus on the kids, it could have been, despite its lack of credible sponsors, a credible petition.

I have at least fifty pages of personal messages from one of the sponsors, along with some lengthy missives from you, Jon, defending the paragraph about the recreational facilities for the peacekeepers.

If you or they cared anything at all about the kids, that paragraph would have been deleted as unnecessarily introducing controversy.

Instead, there was an attempt to make it appear as if I was opposed to consensual sex. I have nothing against consensual sex, in fact I think it is one of this prison planet's saving graces, but I do not wish to pay for it, either directly or through my donations to the UN.

Anybody who defends providing "consensual sex brothels" for UN peacekeepers in African conflict zones, is more concerned with sex than with the kids. The kids have no need for brothels.

And nobody who would suggest, tediously rewrite, insert, and then interminably defend brothels as part of a petition to the UN, is in any way seriously concerned about the kids.

It was one of the sponsors, Henric Jensen, known on Care2 as SoB (another cosponsor, Sanna Jensen, is known on Care2 as Sob's partner Ketutar) who first made the suggestion that "safe sex brothels" for the peacekeepers would help the kids. He admitted it was a controversial idea, but didn't care enough about the kids to leave anything that controversial out of the petition. Another sponsor, Michael W., said he thought it was a great idea, but then rewrote it so that it would appear to be calling for recreational facilities, but would not exclude brothels.

If you want brothels or anything else for the peacekeepers, get up a petition to that effect.

If you care about the kids, focus on the kids and leave the recreational facilities for peacekeepers out of the petition.

Although I had hoped not to have to do so, at this point I am removing both Jon and Michael W. from my friends list. I am thoroughly ashamed of myself for ever thinking that they were worth having as friends. As for the picture at the top of this story, I was told that the guys in the picture holding a woman or a kid over a fire were Belgians. I now suspect that they may be South African, as even the Belgians can't match some South African mercenaries for brutality and uncaring savagery.
 

Jon H (10)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:28 pm
Speaking for myself,judging from your vitriolic writing, thank you Mark. Perhaps you would remove my name from any articles you wrote and then attached my name as co-author? Does this also mean you won't accept any action alerts and petition signing requests sent to me by Animal Groups on Care2? Anything written like the last paragraph is childish but perhaps can explain why you are having so much difficulty with the petition. Always nice to have an opinion even if its wrong and you choose to take comments out of context. Anybody who wishes can visit the HRN site and see the genesis of the petition, what comments were made by whom and they should instead of taking your word for it. You did ask me to post any news articles that helped explain why a need for recreational facilities conducive to culture and cultural exchange were important and show when the lack of them has been used in defense for these atrocities. There are articles coming even more explicit in the request that training and cultural sensitization centers be moved to countries were the UN provides personnel. I know you wanted them PM'd but this is much better. You are also wrong in that UN peace Keepers are volunteers. Many are conscripts who serve at their countries request, often in lieu of paying UN dues and fees.
I would think that such a prolific commenter as yourself would familiarize yourself with the issues.

YOU had an argument with SoB in a group and had NO objection to the petition until you read the pre-amble and found his name, it was at that point that you began to attack a petition that means only what is said. Remember you can try but it was YOU who first presented it to the Care2 membership, even "showing me how it could be done". Nobody from HRN or even myself had requested you do so. Any portion of its evolution which, had there of been something to hide, could have been done in PM's. Every member in HRN was offered an opportunity and requested to provide insight, request article incorporation or petition revision. As you can see, if you ever take the time to read ,that this petition, like is mentioned above, follows almost exactly the requests, including co-sponsored recreational facilities, timely rotation of Peace Keepers, and a watch dog group to oversee the Peace Keeper involvement, reasoning why atrocities against children occur (All points in the petition) of Save the Children. Surely you aren't accusing "Save the Children" as to not have the children foremost in their thoughts? Where the petition differs is in the ideology that women and graft be included in the ICC's charge/mandate.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:51 pm
Jon, re: every member in HRN was offered an opportunity........ is not quite correct. Yes, there was lengthy discussion as to the pros and cons of certain suggestions, but in the end, the petition was formulated and finalized by the co-sponsors and presented as a fait a compli. The petition has merits but I would have liked to see it worded a bit more strongly and to the point I was trying to make. If you read ALL my comments you will see that I tried to steer the comments back to the most important issue - THE HORRIBLY ABUSED CHILDREN. I din't think that the wording was forcefully enough directed towards that. However, I signed the petition and I feel sad that some signatories are removing their names from the petition for personal reasons. What about the poor kids? They are the ones at the losing end of the stick.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:52 pm

I've personally visited the group, Jon, and see even more affirmation as to why I should remove my signature.

PLEASE, if you wish to have a petition this important taken credibly, find sponsors who are beyond reproach and don't change the terminology with an attached letter.

That is reprehensibly inexcusable, evasive and beneath the dignity of those who honestly care about the protection of children, women and justice.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:05 pm

Marena, as for "the poor kids," the sponsors of the petition should have put their welfare above their egos!

This petition, with its obvious subterfuge, should, in my opinion, as has even been suggested at the group -- BE REMOVED!
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:17 pm
Carole, when I first mooted the idea of a petition, I also expected it it to be be different as you can see from the two discussion threads. I did not know about the letter as I resigned from the group and no longer had access to the site.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:21 pm

I hold no brook with those who pretend to protect the innocent, but insert clauses, through "letters" which are clearly unacceptable.

We already have such people abusing the rights of citizens in the U.S. -- and are doing our best to impeach and remove them!
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:25 pm

Marena, ((hug)) I do not fault you in the least.

I do, however, question the management of that group and the sponsors of this petition, which has now made my considerable work, and that of many others, and what was assumed to be its honorable intent, a shambles.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:57 pm

I am a long-stnding, active member of Amnesty International, who is associated with this group, and I intend to DEMAND an inquiry as to the credentials and behaviors of its hosts, as representatives.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:58 pm

I have, from afar, witnessed WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much injustice, and humiliation of members of that group to know that it would be acceptable.

It's time for some light to be shed.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:04 pm

Marena, I know how strongly you feel about protecting the kids.

But suppose that somebody had gotten up a petition to protect the kids and had included in it a small paragraph that suggested that it might help distract the abusers if they were allowed to abuse animals instead of kids.

Would you still say it was important to just think about the kids and ignore the part of the petition about abusing animals?

There are many brothels in the world. Only a tiny fraction of them could be defended as being well-regulated so as not to exploit the workers, and the overwhelming majority of the workers in brothels are female. Due to the nature of African conflict zones, it would be almost impossible to put a brothel there for the use of peacekeepers without exploiting the local women. According to one of the petition sponsors, the peacekeepers are the people that many of the people there fear and hate the most. So no matter how well paid and protected they might be, having local women put at the sexual disposal of the people they fear and hate the most, would at the very least be extremely psychologically painful for them. And of course importing females from other countries to work in conflict zones would be so expensive that as I said before, you could easily establish a new refugee camp or a field hospital for a lot less money, which would, in my opinion, do a lot more good. And as for the idea of having male prostitutes in the brothels so that it wouldn't be sexist, there are very few female peacekeepers and no instance recorded of any one of them abusing children. Most of them would be very unlikely to patronize brothels.

I applaud the efforts of genuine human rights agencies, but none of them would have approved that paragraph in the petition, which is probably why none of the credible human rights groups on Care2 were asked to do so.

In my knee-jerk liberal response to a plea to help the kids, I was taken in by some extremely clever and extremely persistent predators, and for that I apologize and will continue to apologize. I want to thank everyone who messaged me their forgiveness. They say there's no fool like an old fool, and I guess that's me.

The lesson, of course, is that when donating to or joining charities, joining groups, or signing petitions, no matter how worthy they may seem, take the time to check them out. There really are unscrupulous people who will take advantage of those who care.
 

Jon H (10)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:20 pm
Beyond whose reproach Just Carole? And which sponsors? How do you know they didn't put others ahead of themselves. You can't personally speak to motives especially at this stage. The membership requested that the HOSTS write a petition, they did. Marena's correct in that it was presented as a fait de acompli after there were repeated requests for others to get involved. I didn't visit the site, wasn't part of the discussion and I'll shoulder part of the blame as a member of HRN for not being responsive to the requests for initial input. Wasn't there and didn't know. I spend all of my time for work on computers and very seldom prior to this have interacted on Care2. I did so at the request of one of those hosts of HRN you clump together to see if I could help with getting Mark's news out and pushing the NO proposition forward. So I am lately come to this issue also. Mark challenged me to find articles that supported the parts in the Appendix specifically part 7. To send him any articles where a peace keeper used the lack of culturally relevant material available to them as excuse for their defense, all 4 article do that and the 5th, originally presented by Julia and from "Save the Children", does that too, it even suggests an almost exact wording of article 7; the more I read and study the issue the more appalled I've become at the lack of support from Care2. There has been a lot of energy denigrating the petition, attacking the character of the Hosts of HRN but only one petition in reference to TIG has been presented as alternative and the TIG petition doesn't transfer prosecutors powers to the ICC and is generally targeted.Not one petition from those who have commented extensively on the HRN petition has been presented. The evidence of this petitions need, its focus and to whom, specific requests are carried in the codicil is there as to the wording. I'm glad you've personally visited the group and I hope read the entire format of the 2 different topics. Its too bad all who've commented didn't do so right up front. All are/were invited to do so both when the petition was first sent to Care2 and now. Its an open group.You speak of a different petition. Proposed by whom? Written by whom? Sponsored by whom? Who will ensure its deliverance? How would it be changed? The person who volunteered to help write one has no history of success on Care2 with petitions. I challenge you to write one. You are a very articulate person. I'll sign it and help promote it if its accurate. Every member of Care2 has that opportunity.
The only person in this discussion who has a merit in actual dialog is Marena. It was her proposal and I'm sure if stronger language can be used that will effect a result then it can be reworded. As I understand it, the reason for separation of petition body and specific requests was done to allow it to be presented in a fashion that allowed for change of the specific proposals in the codicil if it was needed. Like Marena I will also ask you not to let your personal animosities get in the way and will add not only of protecting the children but all who suffer at the UN's hands in these atrocities. NO petition will mean just that. An unfocused petition will never carry merit and 5 years from now will still be the same issue. The cry from the other quarter that the phraseology of this petition will lack merit and substance to those targeted has no basis in understanding. It's what they request. Being somewhat generic in its wording allows for a larger basis for support. It first needs to get past the Security Council UNLESS the ICC becomes willing to encase it in its mandate, something allowed under the The Rome Statute if requested by signatories of the Statute. The US had withdrawn its signature, C.Rice changed that with the presentation of the Resolution to the Security Council designating the use of sex as a weapon of war carrying the tag of war crimes and its subsequent passage.
I don't understand, I guess, what the most vocal people are afraid of. If its presented and nothing is done then you have a platform, if its never presented all you have done is help ensure the atrocities will continue.
So my challenge is this, work with HRN to work this petition in a fashion based on a complete understanding of the issue, write your own and bring it forward to be signed and presented or in Marena's words "What about the kids? They are the ones at the loosing end of the stick." I would submit that if there isn't a solution presented and actively worked we all loose a little of the Earth's ethos every time another child is sold into slavery, used to make sex films or killed with rape by the only people they should be able to count on for protection.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:32 pm

I give you no authority to judge the merit of my argument, and your assumption of such proves my very point, Jon.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:33 pm

For your information, I've already contacted them.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:35 pm

You are "Jon" today, right?
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:48 pm

Work with HRN? They are not a credible group, Jon.

If you care about the kids go to one of the credible groups on Care2, like Amnesty International, and ask them to help reword the petition so that it would be acceptable enough for them to sponsor it.

I have also reported HRN to Amnesty International, as I have been an AIUSA member, donated money to them, and taken part in their action campaigns, but they have never mentioned or suggested that HRN represents them. If if did, there wouldn't be bona fide Amnesty International groups on Care2, because HRN would be sufficient.

So stop the heart-wrenching appeals to emotion and act responsibly. If you want to help the kids, if you care anything at all about the kids, remove the controversial parts of the petition, take it to a credible group, and ask for their help.

At one point Michael W. told me the petition was time-sensitive and had to get a lot of signatures quickly so that he could hand deliver it to people who could do something with it. Since he is no longer in a position to hand deliver it, it is no longer time-sensitive, and if it wasn't just a scam, could be done properly.

But of course the credible groups would want to know who the sponsors of the petition are, and none of you appear to be traceable or verifiable in any way other than by Care2 members you've managed to con the same way you conned me. So you CAN'T take it to a credible group because they'd want to know who you are. You have to keep it to your HRN friends because they are willing to take you at your word without checking you out the way a credible group would.

And no, I don't need petitions from you. I get petitions about animals from people on Care2 who have verifiable identities and verifiable careers in protecting animals. I don't need to bother with unverifiable sources when there are so many worthy petitions from credible sources.

Anyone who cares about the kids can work directly with Save the Kids, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, MADRE, Women for Women, Global Grassroots, or dozens of other credible organizations, many of which are not only working to help protect and save kids, but are also working to rescue women from brothels in third world countries. Go tell them that the only important thing is the kids and that they shouldn't be concerned about the brothels.

Or did you already try that? Was HRN started because every single credible human rights group on Care2 had already rejected the core hosts group's bullying, arrogance, and contemptible ignorance? It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:58 pm

Work WITH HRN?

Great point, Mark.

I refuse to join any group hosted by members I would delete as friends.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:01 am

and that includes their pseudonyns, such as Eleanor Roosevelt. (Cheap shot, Ketutar.)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:08 am

In all honesty, I believe the bulk of identities of this group has become a sham front for several "identities" for one person. I intend to reveal the results of my research to AI only.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:11 am

And SOB/Eleanor/Ketutar . . . this may be your queue to leave.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:20 am
I'm not the one complaining Mark about HRN and the petition Mark or the only one using emotion. You are the most vocal, the one who on one hand says "Marena I know your pain", but doesn't get off the dime and help resolve it. You have been on Care2 for years, me a few months and until you needed help I wasn't on very much at all. If you know so much about HRN and it was verifiable then thats shame on you. You claim HRN isn't a viable group on Care2 yet they were offered when I joined as an open group. I have just finished reading the petition and don't see what you are talking about, so for now I stand by my comments. You refuse to read articles you requested, if you did you would see where you have been wrong in many places in this discussion. You dissemble with personal attacks and not reasonable discussion. You are right in one instance time sensitivity is less relevant because the person is in the US but it is still relevant while the ICC is in session. Write a creditable petition, stop castigating for once and become productive. The groups you mention have had years to be effective and yet the problem grows worse. They have not presented a petition about the issue specifically. You want people to not vote for the same reason, it doesn't work. Perhaps there was a hope that a petition from a verifiable organization, with verifiable names could change the pattern. You are very good in complaining but I've yet to see anything positive role off your plate.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:23 am

Excuse me, Jon. You signed off on a petition, with a misrepresenting letter.

Take responsibility.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:26 am

Jon, when you purport to be a host of a group endorsed by Amnesty International, you are expected to uphold their standards.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:27 am
And Just Carole I've looked through groups and find you a member of at least one group that a host of HRN also hosts. Time to stop the name calling and take up the challenge. Write it Mark your a member of AI? Get them to sponsor it. Just Carole looks like she would help and I'm sure Marena would take it as a sincere effort. Me I'm for bed and am through with the Hi-jack of this article. You haven't explored it, just castigated HRN and its hosts. If I remember correctly nothing ensensed you more than people hijacking news you had posted with unwarranted political information.
Take up the challenge.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:38 am
I don't purport to host but one group and it isn't affiliated with AI in any shape. I have never found much of what they do to be of any consequence to my interests. Computers and all of their off shoots are my interest. I requested from AI last week verification of association with HRN. There is more at stake if thats unfounded than petty bickering on a hijacked article. They sent me material on how to enroll in either their England or Dutch campuses for 6 months at (x) amount of dollars. Perhaps Mark with his connections can get the information.:)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:39 am

I am a member of MANY groups of which HRN is a host. What convoluted logic does that make the hosts of HRN beyond suspect?

Oh, lord!

Please contain your many personalities are try to remember that the cause is worth more than ALL of them!

In the meantime, I will direct my complaints to the sane.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:42 am

This is all being referred to Amnesty International. As their representative, you have a responsibiity to uphold their standards.

Inserting a letter, circumventing provisions of a petition, is deceptive and beyond reproach.

If you can't see that, you've proven why you can't be trusted.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:45 am
"In all honesty, I believe the bulk of identities of this group has become a sham front for several "identities" for one person. I intend to reveal the results of my research to AI only." All 67,000? Industrious person. Let me know and I can find a job for them. And why not reveal it in the open, why closed doors. I for one would like to know as would a few others I know.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:47 am

Care2 has a policy against revealing the truth behind trolls and shams.

As I wish to stay, I will abide by it.

LOL
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:59 am

You are about to be busted. Take leave.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 12:59 am

*Yawn*
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:00 am
yadayadayada.

 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:00 am
I spoke specifically of one only and to save you the search if you want the name "We the people ..." but see you are no longer listed as a member so my bad but that you Co-host the No in November group with Mark. That's interesting.

There is one thought I will leave you with for further use when talking of sanity. It's attributed to Socrates but is probably from Plato

"You can't speak rationally to an irrational person" It's a good quote when speaking of sanity.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:02 am

Thanks. Repetitive, empty rhetoric really turns me around. *boring*
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:06 am
Then you must always sleep well :) I know this discussion has put me in that frame of mind. Nite
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:10 am

If you weren't already asleep, I'd wish you a good night. Nevertheless, enjoy your coma.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:12 am

And, thank you, I sleep very well. (I appreciat4e your kindness.)
 

Marian E (152)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:19 am

People who abuse, in any way, need therapy and very possibly confinement.
They are not going to stop simply because they are offered "recreational
opportunities", whether sexual or otherwise. Peacekeepers are people in
positions of trust, and those who abuse are the most dangerous kind of abusers. They should be prosecuted, and if found guilty, be subjected to
very severe penalties for violating that trust, in addition to penalties for the actual abuse. Peacekeepers must be held to a higher standard!

As someone who has worked with and represented children who have been abused and neglected f0or over 20 years, I can affirm that abuse of any kind, but sexual abuse especially, damages that child forever!!! And yes, 12 year olds and teens are still children!!!

I am incensed that there is even a possibility that the petition suggests
anything other than full prosecution and punishment!!!
 

Marian E (152)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:22 am

And, I am fully aware that some countries don't have laws etc., etc.,
blather blather. But a world court could and should look into this!

 

Sheila G (267)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:10 am
angry that we can be duped like this, someone is taking advantage of our desire to help in as many ways as we can, sometimes we can rush through something and not see the lie. guilty, and ty Mark for the alert, I would have signed, no I don't read the attachments, I get sometimes more than two pages of petitions and letters that need sent in one day. and I have a small reading challenge, so I do appreciate anyone waking me up to deceit.
just like any org, there are evil people taking advantage of the defenseless. they should all spend time in prison.
and if their appetite tends towards rape or children, no diversion will do any good, no one is safe around a criminal mind.
 

Lydia S (71)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:39 am
Carol, Mark - Be gentle with yourself ... You made an honest mistake. The people that should be feeling bad and apologizing -- are those who wrote the petition -- and continue to "look out for the interests of the abusers", rather than their victims.

It's a well known fact, that RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX -- IT IS ABOUT POWER! IT IS ABOUT HUMILIATION OF THE VICTIM! Many a rapist has had unlimited sex at home with a spouse or partner, who was unaware that their partner was violating multiple victims!

Any "peacekeeper" who becomes a SEXUAL PREDATOR MUST be held accountable before the WORLD COURT, in the HAGUE! These are crimes against humanity -- amd the age & vulnerability of the victims, makes these crimes particularly heinous!

It is long overdue, that these perpetrators be brought to JUSTICE!
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 9:52 am
Most of them are americans, they think it's funny, but it's barbaric. The UN should be disolved if this continues.
 

Emad Ali (6)
Monday July 7, 2008, 11:19 am
it's quite disgusting that some peacekeepers reach such extent of abusing powers and juresdictions in conflict regions of africa and even worth for to ask for such " recreation facility" such as sex brothels cause this won't limit their motivation to exploite the people they suppose to protect and save instead this would promote more crimes to native population and more children would circulate in these crimes inthe same point worth mentioning that peackeeepers are indulge in children sex abuse in darfur for example and many other african regions as many reports evaluated overthere....in darfur they are corrupted in mutual crimes with the militias and the government instead of maintaining peace in that region.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:25 pm
Thats the point and focus of the petition Emad. Right now there is no over sight for UN peace Keepers, the World Court had very limited jurisdictional authority and a will to prosecute. All they could do is turn the allegations over to the peace keepers home country in hopes that prosecution would occur. There are 2 stories in this series that show the length of time this has been in place, how its developed and 3 that explain how bad its become, one from Save the Children U.K. that directs you to a pdf file titled "No One To Turn To" pub. 2008. It is important reading. One can see how closely the HRN petition follows the outline of requested recommendations. There are a few more articles coming that outline children's aid agencies and a variety of aid groups for abused women and boys that show how deficient training for UN personnel is and how, like the petition, request the training and cultural sensitization be done in the host region and an alliance be forged with local leaders and UN Peace Keepers to provide cultural exchange including recreational centers. Under current procedure, if UN Personnel commit atrocities they are sent home for any prosecution which so far has been virtually none and many countries will not prosecute. The world Court has chosen to not prosecute claiming lack of jurisdictional mandate and a need to deal with the leaders, only the ICC which is synergistic with the World Court has indicated a willingness and that is who this petition requests be allocated jurisdictional powers over to prosecute- locally and in a Tribunal format so the affected can give testimony. One of the above accusations though may have foundation in that I see few from HRN defending the petition. Of course the petition isn't the focus of the news so maybe they are respecting a thread topic.
Please read the articles pertaining to the issue, read how impotent the World Court is in resolving the quagmire that has become embedded in the UN Peace keepers. The request for an over sight body (again a pt.in the petition)with real prosecutorial powers and a will to use them, the oversight of non NGO's, NGO, Doctors without Borders, and SAVE the Children specifically and decide for yourself. It's not just Africa its Timor, Bosnia, Haiti, Myanamr, everywhere the blue hats go corruption and sexploitation of children and women follows. Until there is a mandate, true jurisdictional authority and punishment on a local level it will continue.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 1:31 pm

The following question or comment has been sent, on your behalf, to regarding their petition, Prevent and eventually abolish child sexual abuse by UN Personnel/Peacekeepers in war-zones., at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/739181057.

Please do not reply to this confirmation email; such replies will not be read or responded to.

Comment is as follows:

Thank you! You signed at 9:44 AM PDT, Jun 19, 2008
You can do more! Show me more petitions »

Again, REMOVE MY SIGNATURE!
 

Joanna D (216)
Monday July 7, 2008, 2:10 pm
Mark and Just Carole - I think no one from us made such mistake - I only once didn't read a petition and signed & forwarded - only once! and it was mistake!! I felt horrible forwarding to friends fake petition!!
Dear Friends never ever sign a petition without reading all what is written there!!
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 2:29 pm
So? Going to the source rather than the petition site I just posted this:
The HRN Petition re blue hats and hosts ID's

Jon

| Specific Topic Discussion

Over the weekend I posted 5 stories to the C2NN news to note, one hit the front page very quickly as the old argument from Mark erupted and members of his friends list attacked, the other articles have had slow progress. The main accusations are that all hosts of HRN are the same person (I know one who isn't, I personally know him well & he asked me to help keep track of the petition while he was en route to the USA).One person even suggests that almost all members are the efforts of one person to create multiple personalities, that the petition is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to get the UN to provide brothels and has no respect built in to it for children.I have read the petition and see no validity but there has been very little response from HRN members. The article reposted & not getting much attention is one from Save the Children and its resultant report in which if read a person can see the parallels of the petition to Save the Children requests and recommendations. There are also aspersions being cast that HRN is not a bona fide group, does not represent AI, Human Rights Watch etc even by affiliation. Thus my questions- do the accusations have merit? The primary article can be found here:

http://www.care2.com/news/member/315656041/801785
with all the accusations.

The Save the Children article is here:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/101531794/755741

I would like to know as I have several other articles ready to post, but can not in clear conscience if these accusations hold.

Thank you

If I get no response then I will withdraw from posting any more stories and will assume the accusations have merit and I know another who will withdraw his name I am sure. Best to go to the source. Its a good idea in news, petitions and comments I've found. A similar query will be posted in F&S later today about the group if there is no response. The petition though I think will still stand on its desired achievements and its target. Care2 has a petitionsite and can withdraw any petition found to represent what the accusations have been, if judged to be true and if they are I will be on the bandwagon to get it removed or sponsorship changed. Until the allegations are proved I will continue to defend the articles that I posted and the continue the push to get signatures on the only petition I can find anywhere on Care2 that addresses these specific issues and has specific targets. I have gone through hundreds of petitions this morning to see if there is one even close that can be used and there isn't.

There is this though in comments from someone who signed yesterday:
"10:47 am PDT, Jul 6, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx , Australia
As a former child protection worker and sexual abuse counsellor who has listened to the stories of scores of victims and understood the long term impact of abuse on their lives I cannot find words to describe the consequences to these already traumatised children of abuse by those sent to rescue them. Please take immediate and strong action to stop these acts and punish the perpetrators in a way that is clearly known to the victims. They require justice"
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 2:45 pm
This is the bottom paragraph from an article I am going to post later in the week. Notice how close to #7 it reads, its justification in decreasing prostitute use, the entire article explains the UN's postition on prostitution and what happens to UN workers who visit brothels, those who want an early read can find the article at:

http://www.un.org/Pubs/chronicle/2006/webArticles/121306_unp.htm


"However, the campaign would also focus on the positive aspects of peacekeeping, invigorating the pride of peacekeepers by highlighting best practices, said Mr. Hayde. He mentioned an Indian contingent in Bunia, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, that had set up a place where members could play games and exercise in a small gym, giving "an example of how much you can do with very little". Through educational campaigns and by providing a broader range of recreational activities at the missions, peacekeepers would be less likely to engage in prostitution, he said.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 2:52 pm
Jon,

I have brought this to the attention of care2 and I also request that my name be removed.

 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 2:55 pm
Are you angry because you think the claim about UN peacekeepers committing sexual abuse is false? What makes you think those claims are not true?

If on the other hand, you are angry because the petition was put out by people who you happen to dislike or strongly disagree with on certain issues, that seems inappropriate. Making the issue personal seems so trivial compared to the importance of the actual issue of UN peacekeepers committing sexual abuse.

In short, this was a red herring.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 2:58 pm
Good for you Michael. Apparently there is a waiting period to get in to F&S. The request posted to HRN can now only be read here and in the Deletion Dump at HRN.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:00 pm

Petition:

When UN Personnel commit crimes of abuse against children in such regions, the betrayal is doubled, because those crimes not only smear the good name of the UN and its Personnel, past and present, throughout the globe, but the children who are the victims of such abusive crimes suffer the long-term effects that are the natural consequences of such horror, such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, an inability to trust, fear, and a whole host of psychological disorders and physical damage. Coupled with the fact that they are already in conflict situations that cause fear, the fact that those entrusted to care for them and make them safe have betrayed them, easily causes damage that will stay with them for life, and will engender fear and psychological problems they may pass on to their own children.

Internationally, the United Nations represents us all - the population of the World - and we, the undersigned, refuse to have our good names tainted by the despicable conduct of a few UN Personnel, who through their abusive actions against children in war zones, betray those children, their nation, and by proxy, the entire International Community.
We therefore, as part of the International Community, appeal to the UN Secretary General Mr. Ban Ki-Moon the Presidency of the International Criminal Court: Judge Philippe Kirsch (Canada) President, Judge Akua Kuenyehia (Ghana) as First Vice-President, Judge René Blattman (Bolivia) as Second Vice-President, the other two judiciary organs, the Security Council as presently constituted, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court: Mr. Louis Moreno-Ocampo, the Deputy Prosecutor Mrs. Fatou Bensouda and what agents the office of the UN Secretary General may use to implement change and establish procedures for change, that measures be taken to put a stop to the abuse - sexual and otherwise - of children at the hands of UN Personnel in war zones.

Transmittal letter:

We the undersigned respectfully request your attention in the name of Human Rights,

The United Nations is the outstretched arm of the global, International Community, and each UN Peacekeeper is, in reality, a representative for each individual member of that global community.

UN Peacekeepers and Personnel, when deployed, agree to be subject to an accepted mandate, to protect, serve, alleviate suffering, and establish peace in regions torn by war and conflict. Tacitly included in this mandate is the responsibility of each UN Peacekeeper/Personnel to represent to the civilian population of such regions, a beacon of hope, safety and trust, both for the immediate need and for the future.

UN Personnel are easily recognizable through their use of uniquely colored blue berets and helmets. When UN Personnel, both military and civilian, commit crimes against the local population in regions they are bound to protect, that trust and hope is betrayed and that blue color becomes tainted. If the crime committed is not dealt with quickly, is glossed over or is marginalized and not prosecuted, there can be no safety for those they are charged to watch over and safeguard.

When UN Personnel commit crimes of abuse against children in such regions, the betrayal is doubled, because those crimes not only smear the good name of the UN and its Personnel, past and present, throughout the globe, but the children who are the victims of such abusive crimes suffer the long-term effects that are the natural consequences of such horror, such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, an inability to trust, fear, and a whole host of psychological disorders and physical damage. Coupled with the fact that they are already in conflict situations that cause fear, the fact that those entrusted to care for them and make them safe have betrayed them, easily causes damage that will stay with them for life, and will engender fear and psychological problems they may pass on to their own children.

Internationally, the United Nations represents us all - the population of the World - and we, the undersigned, refuse to have our good names tainted by the despicable conduct of a few UN Personnel, who through their abusive actions against children in war zones, betray those children, their nation, and by proxy, the entire International Community.

We therefore, as part of the International Community, appeal to the UN Secretary General Mr. Ban Ki-Moon the Presidency of the International Criminal Court: Judge Philippe Kirsch (Canada) President, Judge Akua Kuenyehia (Ghana) as First Vice-President, Judge René Blattman (Bolivia) as Second Vice-President, the other two judiciary organs, the Security Council as presently constituted, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court: Mr. Louis Moreno-Ocampo, the Deputy Prosecutor Mrs. Fatou Bensouda and what agents the office of the UN Secretary General may use to implement change and establish procedures for change, that measures be taken to put a stop to the abuse - sexual and otherwise - of children at the hands of UN Personnel in war zones. That criminal investigation begins immediately, the offending parties arrested in an expeditious manner and that a Tribunal is immediately seated to hear the case. To accomplish the above we urgently request the following be immediately implemented:

· Make all UN Personnel accountable to the International Crimes Court at in The Hague, alternatively establishing a permanent Tribunal for the Investigation and Prosecution of Crimes committed against children in war zones and make UN Personnel accountable to such a Tribunal.

· Make immediate superior officers accountable for the conduct of their troops on pain of loosing their commission and being given a dishonorable discharge as well as prosecuted in an UN based Court of Criminal Justice such as the ICC and not in their home country.

· Create a screening process for all UN Personnel going into the field to determine their suitability for the work, with focus on their attitudes towards children and sex with children.

· Together with an independent children's organization, such as Save The Children, create a mandatory educational program that focuses on the harm done to child victims of abuse (sexual and otherwise) both short-term and long-term, and stresses the importance of UN personnel protecting children in war-zones from such abuse and how to prevent such abuse from being committed by UN Personnel.

· Allow independent NGO's such as Save the Children, The Red Cross, and Doctors without Borders to conduct regular and frequent independent investigations and bring to justice such UN Personnel that have been found to be engaging in crimes (sexual and otherwise) in relation to children in War Zones.

· Make it mandatory for Superior officers to investigate rumors and reports from the local population of this kind of abuse, and make sure that such UN personnel that have been found to be engaging in crimes (sexual and otherwise) in relation to Children in War Zones are brought to answer to those charges before an International Court of Criminal Justice.

· For the purpose of expediency and to make International Criminal Justice available to the victims of crimes committed by UN Personnel in war zones, establish an independent International Office of Justice in each Region in which UN Personnel are stationed, so that the victims themselves can easily and safely bring their charges for investigation.


If feasible, given the circumstances in each region, provide UN personnel a rotation duty cycle that allows them a safe period to seek out legal forms of relaxation conducive to their religion, country of origin or region of service. Any lack in facilities for such recreation to be provided for under UN supervision in direct connection to UN Posts.

From our hearts and our strong sense of responsibility to the children who, through no fault of their own, are forced to struggle on a daily basis with the horror of the conflicts created by adults in their regions for power, greed and politics, we, the undersigned, demand that you make such changes to protect those rights established by your own body in the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

We thank you for your time and efforts for human rights world-wide.




Notice any (HUGE) difference?
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:06 pm
A red herring in argument it may be Dale, hijacking pertinent threads seems to be a pattern by some. I agree with the comments in HRN, there is a concerted attempt to attack the petition, by attacking the sponsors, their credibility and identities. In reading through petitions today and following links back to original articles, this seems to be a common practice.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:07 pm
Only in the exact words, not in the meaning and intent of the petition. I think you are blowing things all out of proportion, Just Carole!
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:08 pm

OMG, you think taxpayers should pay for brothels and recreational entertainment for child sexual abusers?
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:17 pm
"OMG, you think taxpayers should pay for brothels and recreational entertainment for child sexual abusers?"

Are you imagining things now?

"If feasible, given the circumstances in each region, provide UN personnel a rotation duty cycle that allows them a safe period to seek out legal forms of relaxation conducive to their religion, country of origin or region of service. Any lack in facilities for such recreation to be provided for under UN supervision in direct connection to UN Posts."

Brothels are not specified here, especially since prostitution is illegal in most parts of the world anyway. Why YOU would jump to that conclusion is anyone's guess.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:18 pm

What on earth does that have to do with stopping sexual exploitation of children in war-torn countries?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:23 pm

This petition is fine. The accompanying letter, with all of its bogus provisions, negates its original intent. I want no part of it.

While I make it a point to read each petition I sign, I NEVER thought the "letter" would contain more provisions than the actual petition.

Lesson learned on my part. If you, Dale, are comfortable with it, that's YOUR decision. I am not. I find it deceptive, and am sorry I endorsed it. Therefore, in my own conscience, I am stating so, and have (now repeatedly) asked that my signature be removed.

That is my right.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:25 pm
Looks like you used most of HRN's petition except for such paragraphs "For the purpose of expediency and to make International Criminal Justice available to the victims of crimes committed by UN Personnel in war zones, establish an independent International Office of Justice in each Region in which UN Personnel are stationed, so that the victims themselves can easily and safely bring their charges for investigation." but the is no Office of Justice in the ICC- a reading of the Rome Statute should clear up your misconceptions as would a visit to their web-site and a reading of the responsibility of the 4 organs, their lack of jurisdiction over blue-hats and their recent success in getting Jean-Pierre Bemba Gombo arrested in Belgium for crimes committed as a politician in DRC and crimes in the CAR, but for the rest perhaps you could highlight the differences, find a sponsor, determine how it will be delivered to ensure it reaches its target and not just a desk. Get it posted and like I said I will be one of the first to sign.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:29 pm

Again, what on earth does that have to do with the petition subject?
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:30 pm
Brothels do tend to spring up where there are military bases, whether sponsored by the UN or not. I would guess that providing alternatives for the men, such as video arcades, places to play sporting games, and movie threaters, would make the brothels less attractive. I wouldn't want to risk getting STDs from a brothel if I had those alternatives.

And since I've never served in the military, let alone in combat, I'm really annoyed at people that seem to think they know what goes through the minds of those who do. I can only speak for myself and how I would react. What military experience have you had, Just Carole?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:31 pm

Dale, I'm sure a lot of things "spring up" around military bases.

The subject of the petition is preventing child sexual abuse by UN peacekeepers.

Like I said, if you're happy with it, keep your signature on it.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:38 pm
Not only is it illegal Dale but UN workers who frequent them get fired. The problem is the lack of realization that the UN Peace Keepers are not UN employees but members of each countries delegation, some times used to offset UN dues. The US provides none, doesn't participate with the exception of one unit, the 10th Mountain, and even they only serve as a reaction force to extricate UN Peace Keepers who become embroiled in action.
Just Carole if you would read the articles you would understand where the requests for relaxation and recreation are coming from.:"What on earth does that have to do with stopping sexual exploitation of children in war-torn countries?"
This petition is not some sadistic issue but is based on a large volume of information both personal and a huge amount in literature surrounding the issues addressed in the HRN petition.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:40 pm
"Again, what on earth does that have to do with the petition subject?" It has to do with targeted people and the use of factual terminology to lend credibility to the issue.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:43 pm
Better still, Just Carole, don't ever sign any petition in which the letter differs by even ONE WORD from the petition itself. Of course, that would make the letters themselves pointless.

BTW, "child" can refer to a teenage girl, even though she has an adult-like body. They are high in demand as prostitutes. Thus, the petition could be an attempt to stamp out brothels that would employ such teenagers, not endose them.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 3:46 pm

Thank you. (rolling eyes in amazement)

Please start targetting some of the other objectors.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 4:25 pm
It didn't need to be rewritten in anyway to exclude brothels Mark. It says what it means. As for the rest I am still waiting to hear from HRN, as to hosts, and when I quit Care2 there will be no need for a new profile, the demographic doesn't appeal to me, I see very little being accomplished, even your NO in NOvember petition which is why I got involved has very few signatures. The only arrogance, bullying, uncaring individual commenting on this thread is frankly you. I have consistently asked all to read articles and make their own decisions thats the democratic way isn't it. You have consistently called for a change in the petition and since apparently the hosts of HRN weren't/aren't able to satisfy some issues I asked any but specifically you and Just Carole to write one that I could sign. Have you removed my signature from the NO in November petition or the Co-author title to the article? If not then please do.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 4:44 pm
Why is the *Petition Overview* shorter that the letter (yes, if you look you'll see that the text in the overview is *an excerpt from the letter*)? Because when I created it I honestly thought that I didn't need to include the entire petition in the overview (this is my first petition) - that people are like me - they read before they sign. How was I to know that people sign things blindly?

I would also like to point out that the first 7 points in the letter are wholly and fully focused on making the perpetrators accountable before International Justice, so they can be properly prosecuted and convicted if found guilty. The text says so loud and clear. The last point addresses a defense often used by those found to commit this sort of crimes.

But of course you cannot believe one word of what I just wrote, because I wrote it and I am 67.088 people and am really aiming at taking over Care2 - it's all part of a Jewish Conspiracy to control the world, furthermore I am running a prostitution ring from within Care2 and am really a teen-stalker and serial killer/rapist who is trawling Care2 for prospective victim.

So of course anything I say is just waste of air/ink/digital code.

SoB
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 4:48 pm
Mark, you at least had the sense to tell what number on the petition your signature, so I could remove it, others seem to think I am a mind-reader and can somehow glean their signature number from their email...
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 4:50 pm
Dale writes:

"And since I've never served in the military, let alone in combat, I'm really annoyed at people that seem to think they know what goes through the minds of those who do. I can only speak for myself and how I would react. What military experience have you had, Just Carole?"

As a military brat myself(Father U.S Army 40 years(1948-1988) retired Colonel; Korea (1952), Vietnam (1967, 1969); Grandfather U.S Army WWII (1943) Uncle USMC 15 years; U.S Navy 10 years Vietnam (1968) Cousin USMC Desert Storm (1991) That's just on my father's side)

I heard endless stories of the things that get "in" to a military base. A quick phone call to my father verified that things such as brothels, drugs and other stuff can, did and do go on in U.S military bases. The penalties for such is very strict but it hasn't slowed it down any.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 4:55 pm
SOB,

I just sent my signature number via the petition webpage.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:06 pm
and I deleted your signature. Just find it funny that I had to ask since you seem in such a hurry to remove yourself. Did you think I can read minds?
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:07 pm
Crimes are crimes, and just because there is no way to absolutely prevent them (because humans will do whatever they want) does not mean we should not do what we can to punish the criminals or make them less likely to be driven to commit their crimes.

Michael C, you have credibility with me, more than those other critics. Thanks for sharing.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:11 pm

Jon, I asked JohnMichael to removed the article I wrote from his website until I can rewrite it to remove your name and make any other necessary corrections.

As for the No in November petition, since you did not send a request to have your name removed and state what number your signature was, I went through it carefully, twice, and found no Jon H., Jon Hunter, Jonathan Hunter, or any recognizable variation thereof. Did you sign it? Did you sign it anonymously or under a pseudonym or perhaps under your real name which is unknown to me? If you signed it and wish to have your name removed, just tell me which name is supposed to be yours and what number it is, and I'll remove it.

Dale, if there is a specific statement of mine that you think is untrue, point to it and explain why you think it is untrue. Part of the comment you cite in which you think I am lying reproduced the confirmation sent to me with regard to having my signature removed from the UN petition, and my signature was indeed removed. Is that the part you think is a lie? If not, which part of the comment do you think is a lie?

The liars are those who claim to believe that recreational facilities for peacekeepers might in any way help eliminate child abuse. If they're not lying, they are terribly deluded and irresponsible, and of course loathsome and disgusting for caring more about the needs or desires of child abusers than about the kids being abused.

But their insistence that they KNOW that recreational facilities for peacekeepers would be helpful is interesting. How do they KNOW? Have they simply believed what the abusers, their superiors, and their defense lawyers said, or do they have actual insight into the minds of child abusers? People and organizations who have worked with abusers or with victims do not believe that recreational opportunities have any relevance. Only the child abusers themselves could be in a position to claim to know better than any one else.

 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:23 pm
Good morning 'happy people'...

The 'LETTER', which seems to have fired up most of this unwarranted rubbish, is in fact NOT a letter as such...It IS part of the full petition!

Brothels?...I fail to see any suggestion whatever that the UN intends to establish such...('Legal forms of relaxation' = on-site brothels?)

Trafficing?...WOT!

My signature stays...Anything to get soldiers off kids backs!...Go for it guys, I'm about to thump the 'stop tracking' button...All the very Jon. Interesting topic...(Just the topic)

 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:24 pm
SOB writes:

"Just find it funny that I had to ask since you seem in such a hurry to remove yourself. Did you think I can read minds?"

Since I've never written a petition on the petitionsite, I didn't know how it was set up and wasn't aware that a signature number was required for signature removal.

I thank you for respecting my wishes and removing my signature.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:26 pm
Dale writes:

"Michael C, you have credibility with me, more than those other critics. Thanks for sharing."

Thank you Dale I appreciate that.

But I must come to Mark and Carole's defense as they are activists of the highest quality and humanists to the greatest degree.
 

Gorilly Girl (339)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:27 pm
Wasnt all friends once???? This issue at hand is very disturbing to me for I know all are good, can we not have a discussion without all the mudslining it is making Gorilly so upset for I respect all of you but debating this has gotten heated in sorts and I dont like to see friends lose friends over such as this....Some truley belive in this petition and some dont so why try to force issues on the ones who do beleive or on the ones who dont...it isnt getting anywhere but all of you so upset and I no like to see it happening...Yeah call me stupid but all of you are great in mine eyes...just trying to show some damn love to all of you.....

Big Gorilly Hugs

PS...I do see what all are saying but aint gonna say a word...LOL I would get eatin up in a heartbeat....
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:30 pm
Hm.

Seven points that focus on the problem of UN Personnel abusing children, seven points that focus on asking that the perpetrators be held accountable, prosecuted and convicted in accordance with International Law.

One point that attempts to make a common defense among the perps obsolete and unusable, and people are sincerely suggesting that the authors and sponsors of this petition is out to PROTECT the perpetrators?

How do people READ?
Nemo
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:43 pm
"The liars are those who claim to believe that recreational facilities for peacekeepers might in any way help eliminate child abuse. If they're not lying, they are terribly deluded and irresponsible, and of course loathsome and disgusting for caring more about the needs or desires of child abusers than about the kids being abused."
Well Mark once again you didn't read.: If one is to follow your reasoning go here to look for liars go here:

http://www.un.org/Pubs/chronicle/2006/webArticles/121306_unp.htm


"However, the campaign would also focus on the positive aspects of peacekeeping, invigorating the pride of peacekeepers by highlighting best practices, said Mr. Hayde. He mentioned an Indian contingent in Bunia, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, that had set up a place where members could play games and exercise in a small gym, giving "an example of how much you can do with very little". Through educational campaigns and by providing a broader range of recreational activities at the missions, peacekeepers would be less likely to engage in prostitution, he said."

Also check out solutions offered by "Save the Children"

And you're right I looked and didn't sign NO petition, since it wasn't specifically targeted and was so poorly focused.

Michael C. I for one appreciate your commentary, the way you have phrased yourself and have followed your articles on C2NN with interest. Mark is correct in that we can all be fooled by who claims to be true activists so I'll hold off on my assessment.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:47 pm

Suppose you were trying to promote a petition to save gorillies, Nemo. And suppose that some of the poachers and others who had killed gorillies had been caught, brought to trial, claimed that they did it because they didn't have enough meat in their diets, and the judge/jury had believed them, thought their alibi had merit, and let them off. Would you include in your petition a paragraph asking to provide the poachers who kill gorillies with more meat in their diets so that they wouldn't be able to use that as an excuse again?

People who care about animals would think you were a phony, if not totally insane, if you did something like that.

That's what happened here. Some of the abusers used unbelieveable alibis and the corrupt courts in their home countries let them off. But instead of just asking that they be tried under ICC jurisdiction in the countries where they had committed their crimes and their lies would be less likely to be believed, the writers and promoters of the petition pretended to believe the lies themselves and actually called on the UN to also believe the lies. And are berating anyone who doesn't believe the lies for not caring about the kids.

If they are not trying to protect the perpetrators, then it is likely that they ARE the perpetrators and want people not only to believe their lies, but to spend UN money, often obtained from donors, to reinforce the lies.

Nobody sane would believe for a minute that people rape kids due to lack of other recreational opportunities.

 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 5:58 pm
Sorry Stephanie for the controversy I like you as you know and I know of another who does too. We respect your love. This series of articles set out to do nothing more than begin to address opposition points to the HRN petition that had been previously expressed in open C2NN forum, provide a framework of the history of UN Peace keeping and chronicle the quagmire that a lack of accountability has produced. Other articles were planned to explain what other groups in these fields think are needed to make UN Peace Keepers effective and doing their jobs instead of engaging in child trafficking, rape and sexploitation. I didn't realize 1 could hit the front page I guess without the others and didn't want to monopolize the various categories with the plethora of news articles available or perhaps I would have blogged it to an off-site area with all relevant materials and presented it back on C2NN. Its here now.
As for friends Mark requested friendship and it was his to decide on. He did, I'm happy.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:00 pm
"suppose that some of the poachers and others who had killed gorillies had been caught, brought to trial, claimed that they did it because they didn't have enough meat in their diets, and the judge/jury had believed them, thought their alibi had merit, and let them off. Would you include in your petition a paragraph asking to provide the poachers who kill gorillies with more meat in their diets so that they wouldn't be able to use that as an excuse again?"

If it would save gorillas and make the excuse, however ridiculous it is, hard to use, yes I would ask that gorilla poachers be given more meat in their diets. Not for the benefit of the poachers, but for the benefit of the gorillas. Their excuse is bogus, we all know that, but in some countries it is accepted due to attitudes and values that differ from ours. By providing would-be-poachers with fresh chicken meat, it becomes clear that, when they are caught poaching that they aren't doing it because they are starving or something like that.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:10 pm

Jon wrote: "And you're right I looked and didn't sign NO petition, since it wasn't specifically targeted and was so poorly focused."

Jon, you asked me to remove your name from a petition you hadn't signed.

Then, instead of apologizing, you criticized the petition.

What you see as flaws in the petition that justify your refusal to sign it, do NOT justify your having asked me to remove your signature from a petition you'd never signed.

But it does show the type of person that you are.

ROFLMFAO


 

Gorilly Girl (339)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:10 pm
Well you know I love all of you guys and no likie strife and I DO read and for the most part try my hardest to understand all...I truley do and yes I understand what you are saying Jon...I truley do....You guys ARE the best and wish all to be friends...war with oneanother is just bad...it seperates us and I fear seperation will be our undoing will it not???

Mark I hate to say it for you all know how I feel about my Gorillas but I tend to agree with SoNice...LOL Sorry I think you are not horribilis...But there you are again with an issue of killing another animal....will it ever end???

Big Gorilly Hugs
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:15 pm

That's the point, Steph. It does involve the issue of killing another animal, so even thought SOB thinks it would be justified, vegetarians, vegans, and those opposed to killing animals, would not.

That's how they would know that such a petition for gorillies, no matter how cleverly worded or justified, was a phony and that the people sponsoring it really didn't care about protecting animals.

 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:17 pm
SoHoribblis.......You have no profile page. Is there a reason for that?

“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.

PLANT TREES FOR LIFE.....

 

Nemo Niente (13)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:20 pm
Mark,

I think we are all aware that the commonly used defense "not enough to do, no R&R" is just a cover a justification, but it does seem that some countries buy it and let those perpetrators off because of it.

I don't know about you, but I would rather see those creeps in jail, than walking the streets. If they get off because they and their countries' justice systems *CAN* use a lack of R6R as a justification, that option has to be removed. Right?
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:26 pm
Bette,

Yes, I don't want my NM box to receive more hate mail, people seem to have very much time, they seem to like filling my NM box with all kinds of subtle and not so subtle hate mail - and people can't send me NM's if my profile is not visible.
 

Gorilly Girl (339)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:32 pm
Which is horrible for me sonice...LOL I gave you a new name...LOl I cant send you any good stuff....thats a bummer...

Big Gorilly Hugs

Mark yes quite correct on the vegan/vegitarians but there could be another food source for them...I dont know off the top of my head but I would hate to think that people would actually let the last of these great creatures be slaughterd for food....SOMETHING would have to give would it not...I mean think about it here for a big there are less than 750 left...gezzzzzzzzzz sorry guys getting off topic I will quit...

Big Gorilly Hugs
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 6:47 pm
Nemo is right when he says those people deserve to be in jail. I am in full agreement with that.
 

Jon H (10)
Monday July 7, 2008, 7:01 pm
And there in lies the rub Michael. Right now there is NO mechanism to hold them accountable thus the request the ICC become involved as investigators, prosecutors and Tribunal judges. That trial is held on location so victims can see and participate and that instead of years, justice is swift.
Right now they get sent home without consequences or very little. Its easy to Google the fate of 3 Belgians and 2 Brits who were caught not only in the act of rape of children but in murder and in making porno films in 2007. One of the Brits was demoted.
No petition= no action= the same mess for years to come. Like I said earlier if it doesn't work then there is a platform right now there is just castigation.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 7:29 pm

Stephanie, I understand that gorillies are precious to you and that there are millions and millions and millions of chickens in the world. Yet these people don't believe that chickens should be killed either, and even go so far as to rescue factory farmed chickens when possible.

There were once herds of bison across the United States, millions of them. Now there are only a few remnants. The fact that there were millions of bison meant that their lives were of little value and now these folks are struggling to save the remaining few.

Right now there are millions of Americans, but only a few members left of some indigenous tribes in the Amazon. Those tribes are precious to me and I want to help save them. But I wouldn't suggest killing some excess Americans to achieve that goal, even it it really would help.

Those who oppose needless killing, oppose needless killing. Those who oppose exploitation, oppose exploitation.

Those who think that it is okay to sacrifice one living thing to save another, have no respect for life. They believe that they are Gods who can make judgments about who is worthy to live and who should die.

We are not Gods. We do not have the right to decide who shall live and who shall die. The fact that we have driven a species to near extinction does not make them more valuable than species we have not yet driven to extinction, or are keeping "alive" only for their protein value and not out of respect for their lives.

Only respect for life can save the gorillies, Steph. Sacrificing chickens to save them, whether by shipping in frozen plastic-wrapped packages of factory-farmed chickens for the poachers, or by wringing the necks of chickens in a Vodoun rite, won't work.

Only respect for human rights can help protect the children, Steph. Providing recreational opportunities for human rights abusers does not demonstrate any respect for human rights.

Dale, since prostitution is legal in many countries, it is your claim that is falsified. Unless you're a mind-reader, your interpretation of what happened does not prove mine false. Calling me a disruptive troll is itself hyperbole. And whether or not my speculation is true or false, it is fully warranted and is not slanderous or hateful. You were unable to prove a single statement of mine to be false, so you resorted to ad hominem attacks. Calling someone a liar is not the same as proving something that they said was false.

Some people, because they don't act in hateful ways, don't get much hatemail and don't have to hide their profiles or their identities. There will always be hatemail, but when there is more criticism than support, or when there is almost nothing but criticism, there just might be a problem with the person attracting it.

Care2 doesn't care. As Jon explained it to me, the more controversy, the more unique hits and the more they can charge for advertising. So if a predator takes advantage of caring people and thereby creates controversy, that adds to Care2's bottom line. While they may not be trying to help eliminate child abuse in Africa, the promoters of this petition have certainly helped Care2.






 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 7:45 pm
Does anyone have links to the ICC and more info on this case?
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 8:40 pm
In the immortal words of Elvis Costello:

Busy bodies
Very busy
Getting nowhere
Nowhere, nowhere, nowhere
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 8:49 pm
Mark, you are very good at defending yourself.

You are not so good at owning up to what I and others can see with our own eyes about what you did. You don't need mind reading to see that. And I don't excuse it. I don't excuse any extremism.

Therefore, I want nothing to do with you.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 8:49 pm
Perfect Elizabeth...Ditto...Sanity at last!...I remain amazed and disgusted at many of the misconstrued ego-comments on this site...Here's looking at you kid...
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Monday July 7, 2008, 9:21 pm
Thank you David. I greatly appreciate your remarks...

Now this:
am incensed that there is even a possibility that the petition suggests
anything other than full prosecution and punishment!!!

THIS PETITION DOES NOT SUGGEST ANYTHING OTHER THAN FULL PROSECUTION AND PUNISHMENT. HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ IT?

 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 9:40 pm

Why yes, Elizabeth. Many people did read it. Did you?

The petition suggests: "If feasible, given the circumstances in each region, provide UN personnel a rotation duty cycle that allows them a safe period to seek out legal forms of relaxation conducive to their religion, country of origin or region of service. Any lack in facilities for such recreation to be provided for under UN supervision in direct connection to UN Posts."

That is something other than full prosecution and punishment. And it is in the petition. Since you helped write the petition you should have been aware that something other than calling for full prosecution and punishment was in the petition.

And, in fact, you were aware. And you didn't mind that the petition called for something other than full prosecution and punishment.

Perhaps if had also called for banana creme pies, seahorses, and helium balloons, you wouldn't have noticed that such things were anything other than calling for full prosecution and punishment either, since your focus is only on stopping abuse.

Anyone who has ever used a microscope knows how important focus is. It isn't at all unusual to be focused on one thing and entirely miss something else.

 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 9:48 pm

Whether or not the petition called for full prosecution and punishment, it also called for something other than that. It called for the UN to provide recreation and relaxation for the abusers. I'm not against that at all. I believe that it would only be humane AFTER they have been fully prosecuted and punished, to provide them with legal and appropriate relaxation and recreation while they're in prison. That is very kind and humane. But it is not appropriate to the petition.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 9:56 pm

When I gave the full weight of my support to the cause represented by this petition, I did so because I felt it was entirely worthy. I still do.

Let's please remember that the cause is worth more than any one individual ego. Is it not possible to restart, bearing in mind the objections here?

I can say that, if it were re-presented, with full disclosure in the petition itself, appropriately worded, I would be willing to, once again, devote my efforts toward its promotion.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:04 pm

Thanks for your considerate response, Elizabeth.
 

serge vrabec (278)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:07 pm
Thats a VERY SICK picture, the kind of picture WE ARE ALL fighting to get rid of. Bravo TO ALL commenters, it is that kind of commitment and concentration that WILL get US out of this sh&%.CARE2 ROCKS!! BOTTOM LINE!
 

Marena Chen (200)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:12 pm
All I wanted was a petition to stop this horrible abuse of children in war-zones and went to the group which I felt had the right credentials to do that

I never once imagined that I was opening Pandorra's box. Now friends have become enemies. That was NEVER my intention. I feel so sad over what has transpired here. I do agree with a couple of points raised - but good or not so good - my signature stays on the petition and hopefully - the petition will not die due to dissention. Maybe the "offending" portions could be re-worded/removed or whatever? Maybe some of the objectors could come up with an acceptable (to them and others) alternative? Human rights and especially the rights of those children must be the only issue. UN Peacekeepers go to these conflict zones knowing what is expected of them and must behave accordingly. I know that most of them are not volunteers but are selected and ordered to go there - but once there, they MUST do their duty and protect, not abuse, the people under their care. Nothing gives them the right to commit atrocities. IMHO
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:20 pm

I wish us all to remember that character assassination is also a human rights issue. One I do not wish to contribute to.

If the issue is focus . . . Let's do it. The focus here is these re-victimized children.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:22 pm

Also more than six hundred priests have been named in child abuse cases and by 2002 more than a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements and legal fees.

Anyone been calling on the Vatican to provide priests with more relaxation and recreation? Any priests claim a lack of recreation and relaxation as their defense for abusing kids?

Should the UN provide programs to turn kids away from Catholicism in order to prevent child abuse? ROFL
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:26 pm
Excuse me Carole - you posted your 9:56 post while I was still writing my long post. I didn't see your post before I wrote my response. But you have been on the attack for a while, so you might understand why I wrote what I wrote. I'm tired of being jumped on. I made a good effort and I'm proud of it.

Dale - I understand what you were trying to say, but it wasn't really relevant here. Nor do I think that you blame all crime on the disadvantaged. A person has to be a fool to feel that way. Don't take Mark's bait - don't bother to respond to his question - he is just baiting you. That paragraph was not included to give recreation as a deterrent to crime or to fill the time for those in prison. We all already know that rape and physical abuse are crimes of power and control, NOT crimes of boredom or lack of sex. The paragraph has been explained so many times that I simply won't do it again.

People from every socio-economic level commit crimes, period.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:32 pm

Elizabeth, you seem a bit confused. You wrote, "Mark - that is just a BLATANT LIE - the petition does not ask for recreation for anyone who has been prosecuted and punished and in prison."

I never said that it did. I pointed out that it was calling for recreation for those who have not yet been prosecuted and punished.

I felt that was inappropriate and that if there was a proper time to provide child abusers with recreation, it would be AFTER they were prosecuted and punished, and that since the promoters claim that prosecution and punishment is the focus of the petition, they could have left recreation out of it, since recreation is something other than prosecution and punishment.

Calling me a liar for something that I never said isn't very nice of you, Elizabeth.

 

Marena Chen (200)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:44 pm
This constant personal attacks is making me very tired. PLEASE, bury the hatched (not in each other's heads) and do something constructive. We need everyone to stay focused on what is at stake here. PLEASE
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:55 pm

If a redraft is made, incorporating the suggested changes, I hope someone connceted with the petition will let me know, and I will be happy to add my support.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:57 pm
Mark - this is a direct quote from you:

Whether or not the petition called for full prosecution and punishment, it also called for something other than that. It called for the UN to provide recreation and relaxation for the abusers.

The petition does not call for recreation and relaxation for the abusers. That is a lie.

Now, Marena - these personal attacks were not started by the sponsors of the petition. We have been trying to defend the petition and ourselves against these attacks. I am through defending, explaining, responding. I have no hatchet to bury. I have not been on the attack. I have been on the defense, and for no good reason. These attacks should never have taken place to begin with. I am done. I am proud of the effort that we made, and that hasn't changed. I have done something constructive. I have done nothing wrong.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 10:59 pm

Elizabeth wrote: "...That paragraph was not included to give recreation as a deterrent to crime."

But Dale had suggested that it was: "A compentent effort to fight crime also include alternative activities to get young people to not take the path of crime."

So I guess now the defense of that paragraph is back to taking away the alibi that some abusers used in the corrupt courts of their home countries. But there is no need to take those lame alibis away, since such lame alibis would never be believed or given any credibility in the countries where the crimes occur, and the petition is supposed to be asking for ICC jurisdiction so that the perps can be tried where such lame alibis wouldn't be believed or given any credence.

Do the petition sponsors believe that poor Africans in conflict zones, many of whom have never owned a pair of shoes, never had a soccer ball, and have had to work as child slaves, would believe that child abusers with first world backgrounds and privileges did it for lack of sufficient recreation?

Nobody in an African conflict zone would believe that the abuse occurred due to lack of recreation and relaxation. The idea is to ensure that the child abusers can no longer be tried in the corrupt courts of their home countries where such lame alibis might be given credence and they could be exonerated.

The PROBLEM is that some perps got off on the basis of lame excuses. So the petition proposes a solution that the perps be tried where nobody in their right minds would believe such lame excuses. Why then is there any need to take away the basis for such lame excuses?

Elizabeth wrote: "We all already know that rape and physical abuse are crimes of power and control, NOT crimes of boredom or lack of sex."

That's right, Elizabeth. We all know that. Even the corrupt courts that let people off on the basis of such false claims knew better, they were just corrupt courts determined to let the perps off, so they pretended to believe their lame, obviously false excuses, as the perps were unable to come up with any better alibis.

So why does the petition call for recreation and relaxation for the peacekeepers? If you doesn't believe it would deter child abuse, and you know that ICC jurisdiction would prevent perps from getting exonerated on the basis of such unbelievable excuses, why was it and is it still included?

Why was it ever suggested in the first place, even in the form of brothels rather than recreation and relaxation? Why were many days, on what was supposed to be a time-sensitive petition, spent rewriting that paragraph so that it would not specifically mention but would not exclude brothels? Why were weeks and tons of bandwidth spent defending that paragraph instead of simply taking it out?

What purpose does it serve? If it serves no purpose, why is it there?



 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 7, 2008, 11:10 pm

Elizabeth wrote: (quoting me) "Whether or not the petition called for full prosecution and punishment, it also called for something other than that. It called for the UN to provide recreation and relaxation for the abusers."

The petition does not call for recreation and relaxation for the abusers. That is a lie.

So are you saying that no UN peacekeeper are abusers, Elizabeth? Then why do we need the petition?

The petition calls for relaxation and recreation for the peacekeepers, and since some peacekeepers are alleged to be abusers, it would include them. It does NOT say to provide recreation and relaxation only to those peacekeepers who can be proven not to have abused children. If some peacekeepers have abused or are abusing children, and recreation and relaxation is provided to all peacekeepers, it would be provided to the child abusers among them who have not yet been caught, prosecuted, and punished.

You are very quick to call me a liar, Elizabeth. I think that might be considered a personal attack.

Again, what purpose does the call for relaxation and recreation for the peacekeepers, only some of whom may be child abusers, serve?

It won't take away the alibi or excuse of those who aren't child abusers, since they don't abuse kids and therefore don't need an alibi. The only ones it could possibly be depriving of a lame-ass unbelievable alibi, would be the ones who ARE abusing children. So if it is not meant as a deterrent, which you claim that we all know it isn't and cannot be, it is meant ONLY for the abusers, who might otherwise use it as an alibi, right?

Seems to me that means that it is calling for recreation and relaxation for the abusers, since it isn't meant for anyone else.


 

Marena Chen (200)
Monday July 7, 2008, 11:12 pm
Elizabeth, that was not aimed specifically at you nor did I name any names. I was just trying to get people's focus back on track - as I have attempted all along on All the threads where this subject has been debated. I have never thrown any aspersions on you as I appreciate what you have done. This was your first petition (I believe?) and you have done a credible job. Of course none of us know what the content of you dicussions was with the co-sponsors and I for one, would not hazzard to guess or speculate on it.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 7, 2008, 11:17 pm

Thanks, Marena.

I think this endless bickering is pointless and detracts from the real issue. And frankly, I'm tired of it too.

Can we take out the individual personalities and re-focus on the subject?

(Please)
 

Marena Chen (200)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 12:11 am
Dale, I am a little bit confused - where and when did the Jew-hate creep in to this debate? Who hates Jews here? I ONLY hate people who do evil to others.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 12:18 am

So with no lies to point to, you call people liars.

And with no other possible way to address the issue, you have to fall back on calling me a self-hating Jew?

Meshugenah! ROFFLMFAO

C'mon, Dale, Elizabeth, Jon, SOB, or anyone else involved with the petition. Surely one of you can respond by addressing the issue instead of with personal attacks?

If not the abusers, who is paragraph seven supposed to provide recreation and relaxation for?

If it isn't to deter crime, as you'd claimed, Dale, but instead to deny them an alibi, who would you be denying an alibi to other than the abusers who might need one?

Do you think that peacekeepers who DON'T abuse kids need to be denied an alibi for something they don't do?

The only ones you could possibly be denying an alibi to are the abusers. So paragraph seven is calling on the UN to fund relaxation and recreation for child abusers.

If your intent is not to provide abusers with recreation and relaxation, state who you want the UN to provide recreation and relaxation for, and why.

Otherwise remove the call to provide child abusers with recreation and relaxation from the petition.

Or, if you can't do that, just call me some more names. I don't mind. In fact I enjoy it when people can't address the issues and can do nothing but make personal attacks. It lets everyone see how vacuous their posts and minds really are.
 

Ketutar J (275)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 5:16 am
"...on closer reading it appeared to me that the "recreational facilities" it called upon the UN to provide for the peacekeepers, could include brothels. When I asked about it, I was directed to a discussion topic where I learned that before it had been rewritten, the original suggestion for that paragraph has specifically called for brothels."

COULD include. COULD also NOT include brothels.

"but didn't care enough about the kids to leave anything that controversial out of the petition."
Indeed he did - because that controversial suggestion IS LEFT OUT of the petition. The brothel idea was scrapped. Thrown in the garbage, removed, deleted, destroyed. It doesn't exist, explicitly nor implicitly in the petition.

THE PETITION DOES *N*O*T* DEMAND, ASK FOR NOR SUGGEST BROTHELS TO BE MADE.

To whom the recreational facilities are asked for:
TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

Why was the brothel question discussed in HRN? Because it was being discussed. I think it's quite clear in the discussion that people were DISAGREEING about things and THEREFORE DISCUSSING.

As you can see, it's also clear that there were no suggestions about the wording of the petition, nor about the points in the petition. It was a discussion about brothels and men's sexuality more than anything else. The petition was written and formed by the sponsors - and specifically the main sponsor - because the members of HRN didn't seem to be interested in the wording of the petition.
You weren't there either suggesting anything.

And here - why aren't you discussing the other points?

Earlier you claimed the petition was "well written", but after you found out I am Sanna Jensen and SoB is Henric Jensen, you are making a Straw Man out of the "recreation".

What "fame" would the petition give to Ketutar and SoB, when no-one here knew our real names?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 9:23 am

Dale - I do not even know you, and even if I did, you have no right to personally attack me and call me names.

Ket - Those ID's were to be used solely within that role-playing group (which has been closed for months), and most certainly not in an effort to mislead another group's members as to the true identity of its "new" owner.

As I have now stated several times, I think the majority of the readers here would appreciate it if we could return this discussion to its topic.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 9:49 am

Thank you for responding, Ketutar. You are very kind to come to SOB's defense, as you always do. I'm sure he appreciates it that you will always come to his defense no matter how despicable his behavior.

Ketutar wrote: "To whom the recreational facilities are asked for:
TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY "

And in what way does providing recreation and relaxation to peacekeepers who are presumed innocent until proven guilty, help protect the kids from the abuse that this petition claims some of them might be perpetrating against kids?

If we're presuming them innocent until proven guilty, why do we need to provide innocent people with alibis for things we're presuming they will not do?

The petition claims that some UN personnel have committed crimes against children and presumes that other UN personnel will also commit crimes against children and that therefore it is necessary to provide ICC jurisdiction so that the the UN personnel the petition presumes will be committing crimes against children in the future will not be able to escape prosecution the way some did in the past, by claiming a lack of recreational facilities in the corrupt courts of their home countries.

Ketutar wrote: "As you can see, it's also clear that there were no suggestions about the wording of the petition, nor about the points in the petition. It was a discussion about brothels and men's sexuality more than anything else. The petition was written and formed by the sponsors - and specifically the main sponsor - because the members of HRN didn't seem to be interested in the wording of the petition."

The discussion topic was started by SOB and entitled: "Children's Rights - UN Peacekeepers abuse and exploit Children" It was not started to discuss male sexuality. SOB cited a BBC article about UN pezcekeepers abusing children and said, "I read the above and I am speechless with anger - How dare they!? How dare they put on that Blue Beret and do THAT to children?....They are not only a disgrace to every decent soldier in the world, they are a disgrace to the entire human race. Break their sabers and exile them from humanity for the remainder of their lives."

So the discussion was in a topic that SOB started in the HRN group for the specific purpose of protecting the kids from abuse that, due to it having been done by some UN peacekeepers in the past, he apparently presumed might be done by other UN pecekeepers in the future. If you think that this is prejudging them and not giving them the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, you should take that up with SOB.

Anyway, Marena then suggested that there could be a petition and SOB, apparently not giving the UN peacekeepers the presumption of innocence that they, as all criminals, deserve, wrote:
-----------------

that is an excellent suggestion - I'll look into it - how to write a petition, what to put in it etct.

Some points that i'd like to include would be:

1. Make UN Personnel acountable to the International War crimes Tribunal in Haag.

2. Make Superior officers accountable for the conduct of their Troops on pain of loosing their commision and being dishonorable dsicharged.

3. Create a screening process that all UN Personnell going into the Field has to undergo, to determine their suitability for the work, with focus on their attaitudes towards children.

4. Allow independent NGO's such as Save the Children, The Red Cross, Doctors without Borders to conduct yearly investigations.

5. Make it mandatory for Superior officers to investigate rumors and reports from the locals of this kind of abuse, and don't just trust their sense of honor to do this.

6. Exclude from deployment troops from countries where sex with children is part of the culture - such as Thailand, Indonesia etc.

This last point is controversial - but it addresses part of the reason why this happens.

7. Provide UN personnell with "safe sex" through the creation of UN supervised and UN controlled brothels in direct connection to UN Posts. There's nothing wrong with prostitution as long as we are talking about consenting adults, and those consenting adults are given health-care and decent (and controlled) pay for the services rendered.
------------------

The topic then went on with several people trying to explain to SOB that there is a difference between sex and rape, and the topic deviated from its supposed purpose of protecting children to become a discussion of male sexuality.

In response to several women who became disturbed that anyone would think that providing brothels for child abusers might deter or prevent child abuse, SOB wrote:

"My suggestion of brothels in connection to UN-posts, to address at least part of the problem, is also based in the realization that prostitutes do not only provide sex. They provide councelling, social interaction, and just simple human touch - many times buyers of sexual services don't require those sexual services, but pay for simple non-sexual human interaction. This function of prostitution would be especially valuable in war zones, as being a soldier (regardless if you do or do not see battle) traditionally requires people to amputate part of their emotions but still require them to cope.

I am not saying that all sexual activity in war-zones is "natural" - because it's not. I am simply making whatever suggestion I can come up with to address at least some of the problem, which is the sexual abuse of children by UN Personnel. I have tried to make sure that it's clear I am talking about consenting adults, not children or women in a position of dependency."
-------------------

Eventually that controversial seventh point was rewritten, not scrapped, so as to change brothels to legal recreation and relaxation, but not so as to EXCLUDE brothels.

As for Carole violating your confidentiality, if you'd stay in the groups that SOB owns, where you can mob attack and ban anyone who disagrees with SOB, and stop making fools of yourself in public news topics, you'd be safe from such "cheap" tactics.

There are times, Ketutar, when people who are genuinely concerned with human rights, may violate other people's privacy and confidentiality. For example, if I learned that somebody was abusing children, I would not respect their privacy and confidentiality, I would be more concerned about protecting the children from their abuse.

In this case, because I belatedly became aware, after having foolishly trusted that the petition was for the purpose of protecting kids, that one of the petition promoters had wanted to provide brothels for the child abusers, I felt that should be brought to the awareness of those who had signed or might sign the petition.


 

Elizabeth N (40)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 9:57 am
Dale - why on earth are you bringing more PURE CRAP and accusations into this discussion? That is a personal attack on Mark that has no bearing on this discussion about the petition or anything else here.

Dale - it is NOT acceptable to bring that kind of personal shyte into this discussion about the petition, and I'll thank you to leave it out.

Thank you, Ket - for your 2 posts. This insistance that recreation and relaxation is for the abusers has become laughable.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 10:04 am
But the brothels did not make it into the petition - for the three thousandth time. So why is it even still under discussion....

I'd like to know why no one is interested in discussing all the points of the petition that directly discuss the prosecution and punishment of the perpetrators...
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 10:20 am

Elizabeth, although the brothels did not make it into the petition, a suggestion that relaxation and recreational opportunities for child abusers did.

If there was a petition to reward you, Elizabeth, for your human rights activism, and it included a lengthy list of your accomplishments (if such exist), but one tiny little sentence in it said, "Elizabeth is a human rights abuser," people would naturally want to know why such an inappropriate sentence was included in a petition that was ostensibly designed to reward you for bona fide human rights activism.

Although everything else in such a petition might applaud your human rights efforts, it would not be amiss for people to question why that one inappropriate sentence was included.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 10:21 am
"Eventually that controversial seventh point was rewritten, not scrapped, so as to change brothels to legal recreation and relaxation, but not so as to EXCLUDE brothels."

There really wouldn't be any need for that, since prostitution is not legal within UN "jurisdiction". What's the use excluding something that is not legal, in a paragraph that calls for L*E*G*A*L R&R.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 10:38 am

Nemo, some people object to providing legal R&R to people who are presumed to be child abusers. The petition assumes that some UN peacekeepers, even though none have been proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt in a court of law, or convicted of such crimes, are guilty of child abuse. It does NOT presume them innocent until proven guilty. It presumes them guilty and attempts to address the problem. Some of us believe that providing presumed child abusers with relaxation and recreation, legal or not, does not address the problem of child abuse and is inappropriate and uncalled for in a petition claiming to address the problem of child abuse.

If anyone wishes to address the needs of child abusers, that should be the subject of a separate petition.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 10:51 am

I just got this message from Care2 support:

Hi Mark,

Care2 Support has sent you the following introduction. This system allows only brief introductions. If you would like to respond to this person, simply reply to this message.

We have removed one of your comments from Care2's News Network for violating the Code of Conduct. It is not appropriate to attack other Care2 members for having different views from your own. http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc_conduct.html Care2
-------------------------

I guess if I was the sort of person who was into flagging and censoring people, I could have half the comments in the topic removed for attacking me because my views differed from those who want to provide legal relaxation and recreational opportunities for peacekeepers they have presumed, according to the petition, to be guilty of child abuse.

Anyway, I wanted to post that so that if I should be suddenly suspended from Care2 because my views differ from those of SOB, Ketutar, Jon H., Elizabeth, Dale, Nemo, et al, and their personal attacks on me were unsuccessful in silencing me, folks will know what happened.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 10:58 am

And please, I hope that nobody will flag any of their personal attacks on me. I believe that they have the right to freedom of speech and that Care2 should be a safe place for them to express their views, no matter how controversial, even if their views differ from my own.

Personal attacks on me by others do not harm me, they merely demonstrate which people can discuss issues and which people have to resort to personal attacks because they cannot discuss issues.

 

Nemo Niente (13)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:33 am
No, Mark

The petition speaks from what is factual - that *some* UN Peacekeepers abuse children and the first 7 points address this fact and ask for changes that will make UN Personnel accountable. The last point addresses another fact. Lack of R&R has been used by *some* UN personnel as a justification for their actions when they have been confronted with their abuses, often resulting in their being let off without repercussions. That last point is there to address this specific justification, not to provide convicted criminals with anything, but to provide the prosecution with an argument against that justification when it is being used.

The petition assumes that UN personnel is innocent until proven guilty, but accepts the findings of f.i Save the Children that some have committed this sort of crimes in the past, and recognizes that something must be done to prevent that such crimes continue.

It is the poachers and the gorillas, Mark. As SoB said:If chicken meat will keep the poachers from poaching gorillas, then we give them chicken meat. And if the poachers are caught poaching gorillas in spite of the chicken meat and claim that they were starving, they have been caught with their pants down so to speak, and will have great difficulty defending their poaching - especially if the Laws around poaching has been tightened by other legislation addressing the issue.

Another thing that seems to have been "forgotten": There are 8 points of suggested measures in the petition, the people who are going to read it and implement what is suggested within it are in their full right to read point 8 and say: "No Way José" and not implement its suggestion. I kinda think that we should leave it up to the Petition Targets to use their own discretion as to what within the petition are useful suggestions. They might read it the way you do, or they might read it the way the authors and sponsors have intended it. That is up to them. Right?
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:41 am
Now, for those who for whatever reason don't want to sign the petition HRN and its Hosts are sponsoring - take a minute and sign this petition at least

Stop Sexual Abuse by UN Peacekeepers
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 12:25 pm
Mark,

The paragraph that you and others have had objections to have been removed after a discussion about the pros and cons of removing it among the authors and sponsors. Now, please prove to us that your objections really were only about the wording of the petition and not a personal vendetta against me, Ketutar, Michael, Elizabeth, Jon or any other supporter of this petition, so this petition about which you said it was "well written" can actually get the signatures those kids needs it to have. Prove to me that you care more about the children than your own personal beef with me, and sign the petition.
SoB/Henric C. Jensen
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 12:28 pm

Thank you! You signed at 2:29 PM PDT, Oct 18, 2007
You can do more!

How strange that HRN and its hosts (was "Hosts" a typo or did you mean to imply that HRN has heavenly hosts? ROFL) was unaware of the prior petition until now.

Nemo wrote: "something must be done to prevent that such crimes continue....As SoB said:If chicken meat will keep the poachers from poaching gorillas, then we give them chicken meat."

Do you have any evidence whatsoever, Nemo, that providing child abusers with relaxation and recreational opportunities will keep them from abusing children, other than the abusers' own claims? Remember that people who will commit atrocities like abusing children cannot be assumed to always be truthful about their motives.

As I said before, there is no need to provide the prosecution with an argument against the claim that child abuse was due to lack of recreational opportunities if there is ICC jurisdiction and the abusers are not tried in the corrupt courts of their home countries. Nobody would give any credence to that alibi in the countries were the abuse was perpetrated.

Repeating arguments that have already been debunked numerous times, does not make them logical or sensible.

There is no evidence, other than the abusers' own claims, that the abuse was committed due to lack of R&R. The corruption of the courts in their home countries, which was clearly demonstrated by the fact that they exonerated the abusers on the basis of lies, is the stated reason the HRN/SOB petition calls for ICC jurisdiction and trials in the countries where the abuse is committed.

The only ones caught with their pants down are the ones who claimed that providing R&R to child abusers would prevent child abuse. When that was proven false, they claimed that they needed to deny an alibi to child abusers, by providing them with R&R, however since it is not an alibi that would be given any credence by anyone who was sane and was not corrupt, once ICC jurisdiction is established, my personal opinion is that abusers should be welcome to see if the countries where they raped children will buy that excuse. Let them.

Calling for the UN to pay for R&R for child abusers is not, in my opinion, anything that genuine human rights activists would or should support.

Any available funds should go for refugee camps and field clinics in war zones, not ping-pong tables or brothels.

As I noted in my comment above:

In response to several women who became disturbed that anyone would think that providing brothels for child abusers might deter or prevent child abuse, SOB wrote:

"My suggestion of brothels in connection to UN-posts, to address at least part of the problem, is also based in the realization that prostitutes do not only provide sex. They provide councelling, social interaction, and just simple human touch - many times buyers of sexual services don't require those sexual services, but pay for simple non-sexual human interaction. This function of prostitution would be especially valuable in war zones, as being a soldier (regardless if you do or do not see battle) traditionally requires people to amputate part of their emotions but still require them to cope.

I am not saying that all sexual activity in war-zones is "natural" - because it's not. I am simply making whatever suggestion I can come up with to address at least some of the problem, which is the sexual abuse of children by UN Personnel. I have tried to make sure that it's clear I am talking about consenting adults, not children or women in a position of dependency."
-----------

If you, Ketutar, Elizabeth, Nemo, Dale, Jon, Michael W., and others believe the above statement indicates sufficient understanding of and concern for human rights to qualify you to be owner of a group calling itself "Human Rights Network," SOB, you are certainly entitled to defend it.

Or to explain that you no longer believe that, but had believed it at the time that you decided that you were qualified to host HRN.

Or whatever else you can come up with to prove that you are always right and anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

Be my guest.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 1:01 pm
OK. I've had enough of all this. Henric said that they removed the portion of the petition that caused this controversy - so please let it rest now and see what can be done to get the petition back on track. If none of you can agree to drop this useless back and forth - then I am truly sorry for you all. As I have allready signed it on June 8th, (even though I was not too comfortable with some of the wording) I shall retire from this debate and leave it to the induviduals here to act according to their own concience. Sign - don't sign - remove or re-instate your signatures or whatever you choose to do. I no longer care.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 1:59 pm

I am reluctant to now sign this petition because I believe that, by altering provisions contained in its body after having already been signed by over 500 people, I question if it is still, in fact, valid.

My suggestion was that a new petition be drafted.

Please bear in mind that trust is a central issue here. How do you know that certain people didn't sign it BECAUSE of the clause that so many found to be offensive? They may not wish to still have their names included.

This is very similar to altering a contract without the consent of all parties involved.

I have already gone on record as saying that, despite my own apprehensions about certain sponsors, I still put the cause first, and my own feelings to the background, and earnestly promoted it.

Therefore, I resent any insinuation that anyone who chooses to not sign it (even if they feel it may be now invalid) is a liar.

We are not talking about personalities here . . . we are now discussing legality.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 2:22 pm

If you mean the HRN petition, my signature was on it and I asked to have it removed. It was #319 and you can see that one is now missing.

If you mean the previous petition, as noted above, I signed on October 18, 2007, and since there are only three signatures for that date, it shouldn't have been hard to find, SOB. It isn't as if I'm like Jon, who made me examine every signature in a petition he hadn't even signed, when he requested that I remove his. And then criticized my petition instead of apologizing. ROFL

Okay, never mind. I realize you are a busy person with all your human rights work and don't have the time to verify things before you make false allegations, so my signature is #434.

I will allow for the possibility that you and/or your co-hosts may have been right about something, even though I have never happened to see it, as I don't frequent your groups. It hurts me to see so many people warned, bullied, suspended and banned, so I stay away from groups that do such things consistently. But in order to prove yourself right in a public news topic, you have to address the issue and use logical, reasonable arguments. You can't just warn, suspend, and/or ban anyone who disagrees with you the way you can in a group that you own.

I apologize if I've hurt your feelings in any way, SOB. I don't think that a human rights group is the best place to discuss male sexuality, but if you think that the problems of adult males who are so disrespectful and arrogant that they can't get any, in a world full of horny females looking for love, and who therefore need to be supplied with females willing to settle for money in lieu of respect, I think that you, as host, should have started a topic for that discussion, instead of introducing it into a topic on preventing sexual abuse of children.

To speak about women and children who are "not in a position of dependency" in an African conflict zone, relative to peacekeepers, is absurd. The only reason the peacekeepers are there is because the women and children, not to mention many of the men, particularly single fathers, are in a position of dependency. To say that your suggestion wasn't sexist because there are female peacekeepers who need to be provided with prostitutes to deter them from abusing children, or need to be denied the alibi of lack of prostitutes when they are accused in court of abusing children, is equally absurd. To talk about prostitutes providing "councelling, social interaction, and just simple human touch" for the peacekeepers, supposedly the people they hate and fear the most, ignores the human needs and rights of the prostitutes. It appears to presuppose that the johns need love and affection, but the prostitutes just need a fair wage and to be protected from rape and STDs. In other words, it shows no recognition that the prostitutes are equally human and as equally entitled to human rights, dignity, and respect as the johns. Most bona fide human rights activists would disagree.

But I'm sure that you and all your friends will think that you are right and that I am wrong. In your world, that appears to be what friends are for.

 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 3:21 pm

Carole, I do understand the legality of it. If I sign a contract to do a day's work for X amount of dollars, and the employer changes the contract without notifying me, after I've already signed it, to say that I must do three days work (with no additonal pay for the other two days), that contract is invalid and I am not obligated to fulfill my part of it.

What about if everyone who signed was notified that the petition had been changed, referred to this discussion topic so that they could see the reasons for the change, and asked if they wanted their names to remain on the petition? Would that be legal?

Do the petition sponsors have access to the emails of the signers? I don't remember, but on some petitions you can choose whether you want them to have your email and on some you can't.

Actually, that paragraph was removed once before, and then reinserted, so it can be removed and reinserted at will. The fact that it does not appear in the petition letter at any particular time does not mean that it might not reappear in the petition letter at a later time.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 3:22 pm
Of course not, I didn't expect you to :-D
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 3:25 pm
The paragraph will never be reinserted.
 

Dee C (23)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 3:31 pm
I have never seen such garbage and personal..hateful.. attacks thrown into something as I have seen here in this thread..I have seen trolls behave better than this..
The constant badgering in this entire thread from two members here is absolutely disgusting..
No one has to sign this petition..Everyone has the right to choose for themselves..Those that do not wish to sign it..fine don't..What is the purpose in your continued posting other than to be hateful..and deliberately trying to distort the truth and veer others from signing this..Why..My goodness what is wrong with you..
Is your hate so strong and deep that you can't see what you are doing here..
It is sickening..


 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 3:33 pm

It is my understanding that, when a petition is closed, the petition sponsor is given the opportunity to send a message to all signers. Care2 then sends that message to all signatories.

In this case, the message could redirect all of them to the new petition, explaining the circumstances, and giving them the opportunity to sign the revised version.

In that case, it would be known that their approval of the provisions was given with knowledgeable consent.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 3:39 pm

Elizabeth wrote: "Mark, now that the offending paragraph is gone, if you feel the need to find other things to complain about, as I stated in my first paragraph in this comment, it shows what you are simply looking for things to pick at, which shows that this is all about personalities for you, and not about the issue at hand."

Elizabeth, this might be a little bit like elections. Since 80% of all U.S. votes, whether cast on paper or on machines, at the polls or mailed in, are counted by computerized central tabulators that use undetectably mutable software, nobody can know for sure if the results will be or have been altered. So it all boils down to an individual voter's trust in the election system and the private vendors who run it.

In the case of a Care2 petition, which can be altered without anyone's knowledge after it has been signed, it would boil down to how much the signers trust the petition's sponsors.

There appear to be five sponsors on that petition, you, SOB, Ketutar, Michael W., and HRN. I don't know who has access to it as HRN, whether that would be HRN's owner or all of the co-hosts, or what, and I don't know if you or if a different co-sponsor would be the one to close the petition.

Are you the petition's sole owner, Elizabeth, and the only one who could change it? If not, is there a sole owner, or is it co-owned by several people? Unless you are the sole owner of the petition, your statement that, "The paragraph will never be reinserted," would be impossible for you to know for certain.

As I recall, the previous time that paragraph was removed, it was removed by SOB, and when Michael W., another co-sponsor of the petition, defended the paragraph, SOB reinserted it. You may have absolute faith and trust in SOB to never again do something that he has done before, but unless you are the petition's sole owner, you have no way to guarantee it.

 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:17 pm
Hello all,

I think the best bet here is to please send me a support form if you would like your signature removed from this petition. I will do that upon request of the signer.(please include signature # if possible).

Otherwise, the petition will stand and we recommend that the creator of this petition leave it as is at this time to avoid any further discussion on this matter. I was informed by a very helpful member of the deleted paragraph and though we generally do not look well upon changing the body of petitions after the signature process has begun, I do not feel that this was done maliciously or intended to mislead in any way or to drastically change the topic of the petition. That is the decision on this matter and any more personal attacks, accusations or similar personal matters will be deleted and this thread will be closed.

Thank you everyone, but please let's all be civil and work towards using our energy in a positive manner and not spending half a day on these verbal battles.

 

Jon H (10)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:20 pm
I was going to stay out of this today but keep being referenced. If people would read the information already provided you would find that in response to salient points
1. Brothels or their visitation is against UN policy. If a UN worker is found to frequent one they are fired and sent home. The petition is designed to bring the power of the ICC into a form that they can address and prosecute UN Peace Keepers (who are not UN personnel) under the same statutes. NO brothels, no prostitution, no sexploitation. It is not currently covered as the Peace Keepers are responsible to their own country.
2. Many peace keepers come from extremely poor backgrounds, are conscripts , are not paid except for a small stipend by their country.
3. The UN provides off site and under the guidelines of UN agencies cultural training (very limited) and jurisprudence as is expected by the peace keepers while in service. This has not worked and 3 separate agencies within the UN and several NGO's as well as Save of the Children have requested this training be moved to sites closer to were the Peace Keepers will be stationed such as Dar Fur and MONUC, that it be overseen and taught by non-UN agencies and monitored by external groups.
4. Appropriate facilities for recreation be provided for UN Peace Keepers and the example of Indian peace keepers in Buin have used donations to establish recreational facilities originally for themselves but have since expanded into cross cultural programs and monitored youth programs. Complaints in the Buin area have become non-existent.
5.If there wasn't so much vitriolic behavior perhaps people could have read what has been presented from external sources including the report from Save the Children organization UK body and titled: "No One To Turn To" I know its 37 pages but would save a lot of questions and time.
6. For those not so inclined there are these:

http://www.bruinmun.org/downloads/sc-topic1.pdf
http://www.crinfo.org/action/recommended.jsp?
list_id=238&start=11&link=/action/recommended.
jsp&formhasbeensubmitted=true
&per_page=10&result_type=editor_recommendations
or : http://tinyurl.com/5qnu68 from the conflict resolution consortium. There are also several links to relevant material contained here
or: http://conflict.colorado.edu/ also containing references to resolutions and links to NGO organizations directly involved.
7. An impersonal read of the "No One to Turn To" can see a form of petition genesis and realize that if included recommendations in the article were expanded to include women AND men upon whom these atrocities are committed as it is in the petition and study the subject enough to understand that it is UN Peace Keepers and Observers who are not covered by statute except that of their home country was why this is important.
I will not respond to anybody who consistently demonstrates no desire to familiarize themselves with the issue in all its phases from the plethora of sources already provided, in this forum. It is counter productive to a resolution of questions, has become repetitive and as poster of the article I see little value in continuing. This thread has become nothing more than charge counter charge and has lost the focus of my intent in posting. Those interested in discussion can easily visit HRN. Its an open group and if there is real concern to resolve the issue by commenters, it should be taken there.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:23 pm
Thank you Care2! *greenstars*
 

Jon H (10)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:25 pm
Plus, having very little experience as a poster I didn't know my mailbox would automatically fill up with all the comments. :) Please take it elsewhere.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:29 pm
No problem, sir. I just feel that in this case no one is in violation and I do understand the concerns that everyone has stated. The best bet is to not sign(or have your signature removed if you disagree) and to not alter the petition after it has begun the signature process. I hope that helps to satisfy everyones concerns and we do appreciate all of the passionate activists on the website. Thanks again everyone and your cooperation is appreciated in keeping this on-topic.
 

Jim Phillips (3247)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 8:42 pm

Henric Jensen, Elizabeth Nadler, Michael W, Sanna Jensen, Human R

Sirs:

Please remove my name from your petition immediately. Thank you.

Jim Phillips

Petition:

"Prevent and eventually abolish child sexual abuse by UN Personnel/Peacekeepers in war-zones."

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/739181057

Thank you! You signed at 2:17 PM PDT, Jun 8, 2008
You can do more! Show me more petitions »

# 88: Jun 8, 2008, Jim Phillips, California
The UN Peacekeepers, who have been assigned and sent to protect the Children, Women and people, If any of them, the Peacekeepers, who betray the Children with any form of abuse, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extant of the International Laws for their crimes.


 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:22 pm
Thanks to Jon for posting, and the composers of this/these petitions for having the empathy and compassion for writing it/them. Both (ultimately the same!) pertinent and valid if read ON and not BETWEEN the lines...Both? signed with pleasure...

NO thanks to those, who appear literate enough, but saw fit to enter into such an idiotic tirade of abuse...Surely simply easier to sign or leave the site?...Signatories (or not) are generally capable of coming to their own conclusions without the imposition of your will and obvious misinterpretation of the content...Your Thoughts are NOT required unless based on fact...As has been pointed out time and time again (above) your interpretations are simply NOT based on the writing on the wall...Shame the point of it all was hijacked, misconstrued and so absurdly abused for personal ego trips (Was there any other reason?)...Get real!...

May your next petition/s :) be as useful as the obvious intent of this one
less the garbage!

Care2...Afterthought...A 'Return to top of page' button?...
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 2:32 am
Jim,
This isn't the place to ask for a removal of your signature.
I got your feedback - but I have to sleep every now and then, so if your signature is not removed the moment you hit submit, it might be because I am not on-line. Hm??
 

Mara G (411)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 2:54 am
AMEN David!! I second the motion!! Signed BOTH!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 3:04 am

Care2 support wrote: Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:17 pm "...any more personal attacks, accusations or similar personal matters will be deleted and this thread will be closed."

I have flagged for deletion as inappropriate and messaged you a copy of the post immediately above yours, which apparently crossed yours as it is marked Tuesday July 8, 2008, 4:15 pm, only two minutes earlier than your post, posted by SOB, as it is directed at me personally, not the topic, is totally off topic, and contains no less than fifteen personal attacks on me in a post of only 10 lines.

Thank you in advance, should you choose to do so, for upholding the Code of Conduct to which Care2 is committed, which does not allow personal attacks.
 

Mara G (411)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 3:07 am
What a thread!! HA! Signed the petition!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 3:41 am
I care Care2..."this thread will be closed"...Surely not THE THREAD just remove the NEEDLES?
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 3:54 am
AMEN! PEACE TO ALL.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 12:11 pm
Actually, no one's name except for Jon's (in appreciation) is mentioned in David's July 8th 11:22 pm comment. Therefore, it can hardly be considered personal.

Thank you David and Ron for your support.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 1:36 pm
I forgot to hit the Stop tracking thingo and found 25 notifications in my Inbox, so I was forced to come back here to do so. It is sad that Care2 had to step in to try and defuse the tension here. I am glad to find a couple of voices of reason have showed up.

Stopped tracking.
 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 2:10 pm
One thing is for sure, anybody who wasn't aware of the petition before, that tracks C2NN stories, should be now. :)
 

Rebecca Forste (475)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 3:25 pm
Elizabeth,

Mark's post is addressed to Care2 support, not David. The personal attacks Mark refers to are contained in SOB's post, not David's. I have also flagged that abusive comment by SOB as well as several others by him and others, including yourself, that very clearly violate care2's stated policies.

David's post has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with Mark's last post. Just because one post follows another chronologically does not mean that there is any other connection between them.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 5:07 pm
Mark,

Are you suggesting that SoBHorribilis is a fake ID of one of the Owners of Care2? That's an interesting idea. What made you think that? That's just awful, if it's true! Care2 Owners sneaking around Care2 posing as real people...who would have thought?
Nemo
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:02 pm
What would the reason for the preferential treatment be? That seems to be the $25,000 question......
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:07 pm
The photo doesn't even come from the article itself. On the article page there isn't any photo.
 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:27 pm
"Perhaps our leaders should put the question to the people: what do we want the United Nations to be?" Schlesinger wrote. "Do we want it to avert more killing fields around the planet? Or do we want it to dwindle into impotence, leaving the world to the anarchy of nation-states?" Critics of the UN should eagerly embrace such a debate — provided that a copy of the above photograph is made available to all participants. First published in the United States on the cover of the June 24th issue of the left-wing weekly Village Voice, the photograph depicts two Belgian paladins of the new world order giddily holding a Somali child over an open flame. Other series of photographs depict UN soldiers kicking and stabbing a Somali, and another soldier apparently urinating on the Somali’s dead body; yet another shows a Somali child being forced to drink salt water, vomit, and worms. A second group of photos published in the July 15th Village Voice shows the dead bodies of bound Somalis — what appears to be the work of a death squad.

One atrocity not caught on camera involved the "punishment" of a Somali child by placing him in a metal container and withholding water from him for two days; predictably, the relentless African heat killed the child. One Belgian UN soldier testified that it was a regular practice to use metal boxes as prison cells, and that other Somalis probably died similarly gruesome deaths."
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/UN/peace.html
Amnesia International
'Protecting the Human'? UN peacekeepers in Somalia, 1993.

Check with them they took it and posted it.
 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:31 pm
Once again your powers of observation overwhelm me MArk
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:33 pm
Mark...(NOT) my child...Get a life!...(Preferably elsewhere?)...Where no one nose...
Apologies to all who are involved in this, but there comes a time!...The language would have been much more profound...
YES Michael it would...
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:34 pm
The photo comes from this link:

http://images.google.com/images?q=a%20young%20Iraqi%20girl%20over%20a%20fire%3F&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

That's not a photo of UN peacekeeprs.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:51 pm

The source that Jon gives above merely reprinted the article and the photo. They credit the original source as being "The New American" which is the magazine of the John Birch Society.

I used that photo myself with a story and a petition to boycott Belgian chocolate. I had mistakenly trusted the person who gave it to me, Michael W., one of the sponsors of this petition, and had not checked it out. My bad.

 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 6:52 pm
No it comes from this link and if you want to check the archives of the Village Voice from 1993 you will find it there.
http://images.google.com/images?q=UN%20peacekeepers&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
There is also another source listed but it is a blog and we know how unreliable they can often be.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:03 pm

This is the source that Jon, who claims to be Michael W's son, gave in his previous comment:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/UN/peace.html

That source credits "The New American," the John Birch Society magazine for the article but does not give a source for the picture.

The link that Michael C. gave for the picture says that it is a young Iraqi girl being tortured:

http://images.google.com/images?q=a%20young%20Iraqi%20girl%20over%20a%20fire

Apparently that picture has been used for many purposes over the years and this is just the latest one.


 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:04 pm
There is also a link to this one: http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/26/united_nations_wideweb__470x323,0.jpg

Only one of several have on a hat and the only other ID is the van in the picture that says UN.

And Mark please gets your facts straight. You know nothing of integrated units. The Selous Scouts were Rhodesian not South African.
"UN peacekeepers are required to wear some identifying insignia at all times." Is not true either, although you make the comment and if you can prove it I will stand corrected.
As for this squabble over the picture I find amusing. I have been reading through many of your stories recently Mark and can you actually claim with a straight face a disgust if a picture used isn't from a story?
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:04 pm

Okay, guys. The picture is certainly questionable. Here'e a more representative one of the blue hats/helmets:

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images10/haiti/man_talks_to_un.jpe

That does not negate the truth behind the atrocities committed.

As I previously stated, I do not deny that this is a matter worthy of support. My conflict is with the manipulation of the petition.

I credit the authors with presenting the cause, but their presentation was, unfortunately, extremely faulted.
 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:19 pm
Just Carole I appreciate the comment. Like Michael C. I googled but used UN Peacekeepers when the story didn't have a picture and found 2 of the same, both from 1993, both apparently white and both claimed to be of Belgian UN Peacekeepers under the Google banner. If you follow the links from the above discussion you will find that Belgian peacekeepers in Somalia (2) were accused of the above. The caption in the source is: "UN "peacekeepers" torture a Somali child over fire" and the story includes:
"there were reports Belgian U.N. troops roasted a Somali boy. A Belgian military court reportedly sentenced two paratroopers to a month in jail and a fine of 200 pounds for the offense."
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:19 pm

I am further disturbed that hosts of a human rights group are permitted to openly assault members, when they are expected to uphold the dignity of others.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:19 pm

Plus, I do not understand why a well-stated, substantiated, legal argument (such as mine questioning the morality of altering provisions of a doucment after having been signed by over 500 people) -- reasonable in my estimation -- should result in extreme animosity and accusations within an open human rights group (which can be read by any member, and which has been read by me).

Had cooler temperaments prevailed, this petition may have had a chance.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:28 pm

There are, in fact, still standing, several violations of CoC and ToS within that group -- which I find galling!

You cannot expect members to support causes promoted by offenders of others human rights.
 

Rebecca Forste (475)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:33 pm
Just C.,

" am further disturbed that hosts of a human rights group are permitted to openly assault members"

Yes, I am disturbed by that also. I believe many others are also. I know that I am not the only person who left that group due to the behavior of the hosts.
 

Blue Bunting (855)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:34 pm

The flip side of glory: Why is the military unable to control rape?




An American soldier's sexual assault of a
14-year-old Okinawan girl has caused a diplomatic crisis that could
result in Japan's refusal to increase its participation in the Iraq
war, creating a rare situation indeed: an instance in which rape
matters to the U.S. military.
President Bush apologized. Condi Rice even told Japanese leaders
that the United States would "try" to prevent such incidents from
happening again. My opinion: "Try" is already an admission of
helplessness.
The military has no idea what to do with its rape problem because
it's part of the core contradiction out of which today's military
tradition has grown. Military rape, and the denial and/or
blame-the-victim vehemence with which it is generally greeted, exposes,
perhaps like nothing else, the lunacy of so much of our foreign policy,
which is built on assumptions of that tradition that have long been
abandoned in most other spheres of life, beginning with the need for a
dehumanized, soulless "other" who is the "enemy."



» article continues...
 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:36 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1997/06/24/wbel24.html

"Belgian UN troops admit to 'roasting' Somali boy"- is the headline
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 7:44 pm

Jon, I feel you acted in earnest, with best intentions, and I am sorry for the outcome of this issue.
 

Jon H (10)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:02 pm
Just Carole I really and sincerely appreciate that comment as it is true. Had I have had more experience in posting news and Care2 I would have proceeded differently.As a follow up though to the questions re the picture and accusations: I'm going to post the entire article from the Telegraph UK. Its graphic and I hadn't wanted to post it except in a news article later this week with a warning and a visit site link however I think I've had my fill of posting,:) but it has now become more important as integrity and motives have been impugned. I apologize in advance for the graphic nature but:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1997/06/24/wbel24.html
"Belgian UN troops admit to 'roasting' Somali boy"-
TWO Belgian paratroopers who were photographed "roasting" a Somali boy over a flaming brazier are expected to be jailed for only a month and fined �200 after admitting the atrocity in a military court in Brussels yesterday.

Privates Claude Baert and Kurt Coelus faced a maximum of a year in jail but the prosecutor demanded only a month. Sentence will be passed on Monday. The case against a third soldier accused of atrocities during the United Nations "Restore Hope" mission three years ago was adjourned until September.

Sgt Dirk Nassel is accused of forcing a young Somali to eat pork, drink salt water, and then eat his vomit. The three soldiers were charged with assault and threatening behaviour.

A fourth member of the 3rd battalion of the Parachute Regiment, based at Tielen in Flanders, is also due to go on trial in September. Sergeant Major Rudy Derkinderen is suspected of having murdered a Somali whom he was photographed urinating on.

The circumstances surrounding the death of another child at the paratroopers' base near Kismayo in southern Somalia are also under investigation. According to the testimony of two former paratroopers, the boy, who had been caught trying to steal food, died after being locked in a container for 48 hours.

The Defence Minister, Jean-Pol Poncelet, has promised that any of the paratroopers found guilty of criminal acts in Somalia will be dishonourably discharged. Baert has already left the army but Coelus is now in the navy and Nassel has remained at Tielen.

Mr Poncelet has also ordered an inquiry to establish whether the incidents were part of a broader pattern of abuse of the local population. If it is, he has promised to disband the 3rd battalion.

Fifteen members of the regiment were investigated in 1995 for "acts of sadism and torture" against Somalian civilians.

One paratrooper has been sentenced to five years, following the murder of a Somalian youth, who allegedly had uncovered illegal arms trading by the paratroopers. Belgium is the third country involved in the "Restore Hope" mission to charge its soldiers for serious misdemeanours against Somalian civilians, including rape, torture and murder. In 1995 a group of Canadian paratroopers were investigated for torturing a Somali to death and killing three others.

The charges of indiscipline, racism, and the rituals for new members of the unit led to the Canadian Airborne Regiment being disbanded last year. Earlier this month gruesome photographs were published in a Milan magazine of Italian soldiers torturing a young Somali youth, and abusing and raping a young Somali girl. Two Italian generals involved in "Restore Hope" have subsequently resigned to clear the way for a major investigation of the unit involved, the Folgore (Lightning) Division currently deployed on peacekeeping duties in Albania.

The Italian parliament has set up a major investigation and boards of inquiry of the Italian army are at work. Paratroopers of the Folgore claim that they were specifically trained in methods of torture to aid interrogation. According to one witness Italian soldiers tied a young Somali girl to the front of an armoured carrier and raped her while officers looked on.

The witness told investigators: "When the officers wanted to have fun, everybody went along with it."

Over the weekend an interpreter with the Italian force in Somalia accused a Folgore battalion commander of sexually abusing a 13-year-old Somali youth. The "Restore Hope" mission has become the most controversial of all recent peacekeeping operations undertaken under the UN banner. It was mandated in 1992 to provide medical aid and food after civil order in Somalia collapsed following the overthrow of the Marxist dictator Maj Gen Muhammad Siad Barré, after a 17-year civil war.

A common thread through the accusations against the Belgian, Italian and Canadian forces, is the racism of elite units, particularly airborne units, and their inability to adapt to low-intensity peacekeeping operations.

Last week an Italian paratrooper said: "What's the big deal? They are just niggers anyway."

The head of the UN's peacekeeping department, Under Secretary General Bernard Miyet, said: "The image of the United Nations has been tarnished."

16 June 1997: Generals quit over 'Somalia atrocities'
22 June 1997: Simpson on Sunday: You've all gone quiet over there
5 August 1996: Obituary: General Mohamed Farah Aidid
28 February 1995: Marines land to cover UN's Somalia pull-out
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:03 pm

In all honesty, this whole situation infuriates me!

We had a sincere, important, issue to promote here, which got sabotaged -- NOT by me or others, because we signed and circulated it -- but by vindictiveness from those who cannot reason and interact with civility and understanding and simply respond in kind to questions.

It's shameful. But I invite anyone else, who truly believes in this cause, to restart it. I would offer to, but have too much on my plate right now, as I will be leaving the country in a few weeks.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:15 pm

Elizabeth,

Before making your comments, please do readers a favor by reading ALL subsequent remarks.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:29 pm
I think the best advice I could give is a complete rewrite of the original petition.

This is obviously an issue that everyone cares about and everyone obviously wants to be onboard with.

Between everyone present here, the new petition could be promoted with renewed faith and get just as many signatures if not more.

Besides, the original petition was altered after people started signing it. This technically makes it null and void anyway.

There is a peaceful solution to this situation. Let's just all work together and do the right thing.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:30 pm
Carole - I read what I could read. While I was posting, I obviously could not read new comments, however, I don't see anything new that would make me change what I had written - except what looks like another negative implication from you about the petition sponsors.

I see you giving Jon a nice pat on the back - but he has also been generally attacked here.

NONE OF THIS HAD TO HAPPEN - now I am leaving
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:38 pm

Michael, I haven't stated this publicly before, but one reason I have been holding back on new projects is because I am leaving the country in a few wee-e-ks.

As such, I cannot, in good conscience, take on leadership of anything new.

I, of course, once settled, will re-establish contact.

If you can revitalize this with a new petition, bearing in mind the points of argument, you have my full support.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:39 pm
I can also help with the promotion and probably offer constructive advice and assist with the writing of it if both parties can agree.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:39 pm

I'm available at any time before leaving, and will help in any way possible.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:40 pm
Thank you Carole.

I've never written a petition but I would be willing to help out in anyway that I can. This is an important issue and I'll definitely offer my services.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 9, 2008, 8:48 pm

Just looked at my own comment:

"I am leaving the country in a few wee-e-ks."

Fear shows, huh? LOL
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 12:12 am
?
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 3:10 am
?? indeed, David
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 3:51 am
"None of the profiles in the SOB clique are traceable to any real person or bona fide organization."

Why would they have to be? Most members of Care2 are just people who are not traceable, with no affiliations or organizations behind them, why would SillyOldBear and the other hosts of HRN need to be? I don't get it. Could you please explain this to me?
 

CareTwo Support (520)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 10:45 am
Hello,

This thread has gotten out of hand. There is a difference between debating and abusing each other. Due to the extensive abuse that we have witnessed on this thread, a zero tolerance policy is being implemented on this thread from here out. Any further flaming done by any members will result in actions taken on the account. If you are not aware of our flaming policy, it can be located here
Care2 - Care2's Flaming Policy
.

Michon
Care2 Support
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 10:54 am
My profile has been the same since I started at Care2 in either 2000 or 2001. SoB has simply been shutting down his profile sometimes when he is not actually posting. If you get to his profile and it says no such profile exists, if you look at the URL, it still shows his Care2 ID number. Ket's profile is the same since she has been here - with the exception of changing her avi. Michael has the same profile he has had since he came to Care2.

All of our profiles are traceable to real people, because we are all real people. This is kind of ridiculous. I can assure you that I exist, and so do the rest of us.

There is nothing abusive in this comment, Care2, nor is it directed at anyone in particular. Just at some silly remarks some people had made that we were all fake profiles.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 11:11 am
Well!!!!!!!!!! Darn!!!!!!!!!! I'm for real read my fingers......A little humor!!!!!!!!!

Don't know what all the bickering is about, don't care either!!

Surely all of you must realize these kinds of situations have existed for longer than recorded history.......It seemingly is the nature of men to do as they do. And it will carry on for as long as man exists!!

It is commendable to try & fix such behavior as it should be! However, for as long as man exists this sexual behavior will never be wiped out & I do mean never!!!!!!!

Have a great day & go plant trees for life.........
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 1:10 pm
I'm back!!!!!!

We humans are an odd lot with social & cultural mores that do not exist in any other animals kingdom.

If there is to be a remedy at all it lies in changing these cultural & social mores among the men of these people & countries......And that is a very very difficult thing to do in light of how many of us there are.....

Six billion people who live & die according to how they were raised which leads directly to a positive or negative attitude towards the female species of our lot.

The attitude is the problem, the freedom to do as they please the men whoever they are even good guys will dig deep into their lustful pockets and hope they don't get caught.

The people at the U.N. all the way to the lowly snake who works for the U.N. need lessons in humanity, laws to punish those who deny a childs right to her own body......

Most of these men need shrinks & jailed......

Take a breather & go plant trees..................
 

Marena Chen (200)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 10:03 pm
????????????????????? Who removed my comment and WHY????????
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 10:11 pm

Marena, my friend. I am not a Care2 "toadie" nor am I (by any stretch of the imagination) a "pet" of management here.

However, they have issued many warnings regarding derogatory remarks, and are obviously enforcing that strictly.

Nothing you said -- in my open-minded opinion -- violated any rules . . .

HOWEVER, you need to remember that this article has now become a "war zone."

hehehehehehehe
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 10:20 pm

I would like this article to remain, intact (as much as it is to date), so I don't feel where asking others to refrain from making judgmental comment about posters is unreasonable.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 11:02 pm
Carole, I don't know if you had a chance to read my comment before it was removed - but it was neither rude, abrasive, offensive nor off-topic in any way. I am 99% of the time polite in all my comments. I was neither informed nor warned. The focus on the reason for this petition has been completely lost along the way - which saddens me no end. I had such good intentions when I mooted it on HRN. Sighhhhhh
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 11:07 pm

Sorry, Marena. I answered you in private, not realizing you'd posted publicly.

Here (for others) is my response:

"Yes, darlin' . . .

I've read every comment.

(and I secretly applauded your message).

They're just being overly-protective right now.

*C*"
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 11:39 pm

Care2?

Please remember that you are merely providing a medium for a message.

Without messengers, you are nothing.

Thank you.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 10, 2008, 11:50 pm

I can do my 10 clicks every day (which I do); but when that few minutes is done, if I don't visit other areas of this site, you profit nothing.

Please give due respect to those of us who note stories, join and formulate groups, invite friends, give feedback, and continue frequenting your site, thereby encouraging others to do the same.

Again, thank you.

 

Marena Chen (200)
Friday July 11, 2008, 12:26 am
Thank you Carole and all the other commenters here who saw nothing wrong with my post. I am a retired lawyer and high court judge and I know where to draw the line. Even though this petition has gone completely haywire, I have kept my resentment in check. My only concern was for the children who are and continue suffering at the hands of those monsters while this debate is going absolutely nowhere. I have read the removed comment over and over and looked at it from all aspects and nothing warrants the removal.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Friday July 11, 2008, 9:02 am
Marena - I am sorry that you had a comment removed. I don't know if I read it or not, because I don't know which comment was removed, but thank you for the PM.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Friday July 11, 2008, 10:23 am
You are most welcome Elizabeth. Maybe you can find out who did remove it and ask him/her/them, to put it back as it is an infringement of MY human rights. If you were given the opportunity to read it, you would most certainly "scratch your head" wondering why it was removed.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday July 11, 2008, 12:57 pm
I don't recall any of your comments being abrasive. I'm truly sorry that happened to you Marena.
 

CareTwo Support (520)
Friday July 11, 2008, 2:13 pm
You have all gone off topic and I removed the comment as such. No more complaints need to be made about each other's behavior. If you wish to comment on the story then please do so. If I see any comment that can be construed as questionable I will remove them. If posts are made that we feel are flaming an issue that has been warned about repeatedly, actions will be taken at that time.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Friday July 11, 2008, 2:25 pm
"Most countries have little interest in seeing their peacekeepers brought to trial for crimes committed while 'doing good deeds' elsewhere in the world," according to Refugees International. It doesn't seem to matter that they are U.N. peacekeepers committing human rights violations."

This seems to be exactly the reason why UN Peacekeepers need to be made accountable before an International Court. The only authority that can remove the judicial immunity of the Peacekeepers is the UN.

It seems that many countries feel that those who sign up for the job of Peacekeepers are entitled to abuse. Vile.
Nemo
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Friday July 11, 2008, 2:35 pm
Nemo - that's a horrible thought.

I ask this rhetorically, of course, but why would any country develop a point of view that those who are peacekeepers for the UN are entitled to abuse those whom they are charged with protecting?

For that matter, why does anyone think it is acceptable for anyone to abuse anyone under any circumstances? Especially children who are innocent and are already suffering as a result of living in conflict zones, women, the elderly...

It's a sad world that we live in. I hope there is a way to get this petition moving again.....
 

Past Member (0)
Friday July 11, 2008, 3:08 pm

These abuses have been known and investigated by the UN since at least 2002.

Among other things, the UN has been providing more recreational opportunities for peacekeepers, however the abuse has not decreased.

A good step towards getting a credible petition would to be learn what has already been done, study the reports going back to 2002, and join with some of the credible organizations that have been working on the problem for many years, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and tackle the problem separately.

When the name Amnesty International is listed as the sponsor of a petition or an action, thousands of people all over the world take part because they trust the sponsor. If Human Rights Network had 67,000 members who trusted it, the petition would have had more than a few hundred signatures. If HRN felt the petition was worthwhile and were associated with Amnesty International, they could have taken it to AI's board and asked AI to co-sponsor it.

Future attempts should focus on enlisting credible organizations and working with them to create a credible petition. The important thing is the kids.

I have donated to human rights groups for many years. A couple of weeks ago a new human rights group claiming to be working to help kids in Africa gave a presentation at my public library. They were only part way through their presentation when I realized that they had begun their efforts by raising $16,000 from U.S. schoolchildren, and then spent at least $13,000 of that on t-shirts, promotional materials, and air fares, so that they could film themselves building ONE house for a family in Africa, and use that film to raise more money to build another house. I walked out because I really care about the kids in Africa and I know at least a dozen organizations that make better use of donated money.

In this case, it is not a question of money but of whether a particular petition effort is the most productive action we can spend time promoting. That is up to every individual to decide for themselves.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Friday July 11, 2008, 3:28 pm
Elizabeth,

I think the idea of entitlement lies in the prestige that follows with being a UN Peacekeeper, especially in the mind of one's own nation. But instead of imparting a sense in the Peacekeepers of Noblesse Obligé a sense of being "elite" creates a feeling of being "untouchable", which of course they are as long as they have immunity.
Nemo
 

Past Member (0)
Friday July 11, 2008, 4:10 pm

I agree, Nemo, and I believe that the same reasoning would apply to anyone who has some sort of power and can act with impunity, from Presidents like Mugabe and Bush (and the former President Charles Taylor of Liberia, charged with war crimes by the ICC) to lowly Care2 group hosts like myself. Fortunately nobody has ever accused me of abusing my power or of having any type of immunity.

 

Elizabeth N (40)
Friday July 11, 2008, 4:21 pm
Nemo - The list of those who have abused power is just endless. And those who are tempted by it by find themselves betting burned when they take a dip in the pool....It brings two films to mind - The Last King of Scotland, and Mephisto. The doctor in the first film and the actor in the second film - ordinary people who get sucked in by what looks like the 'glamour' of power. Really powerful films.

Look at Carl Rove these days refusing to comply with his subpoena because he thinks he has some special entitlement....

I hope that every UN 'peacekeeper' abuser of women and children is absolutely smashed in the ICC and punished as harshly as possible.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday July 11, 2008, 4:22 pm
Elizabeth writes:

"I ask this rhetorically, of course, but why would any country develop a point of view that those who are peacekeepers for the UN are entitled to abuse those whom they are charged with protecting?"

Sadly, it comes down to power and control Elizabeth; it really is that simple.

There are countries and powers that be that feel it is necessary to exert control over people. Abuse and torture is part of that control. These are the same people who would restrict these rights:

Peace and Happiness

Freedom of Speech and Expression

The right to assemble and protest peacefully

"For that matter, why does anyone think it is acceptable for anyone to abuse anyone under any circumstances? Especially children who are innocent and are already suffering as a result of living in conflict zones, women, the elderly"

It's never acceptable to abuse anyone under any circumstances. Even those that do this know this. That's why they do it in secret because they know what they are doing is wrong and unacceptable.

It's a sad world that we live in. I hope there is a way to get this petition moving again....."

My original offer to help is still on the table. I would suggest a new petition written from scratch. I will do my personal best to help promote it the best I can.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday July 11, 2008, 4:29 pm

C'mon, guys, with all these great minds -- coupled with positive energy -- surely this can be restarted and see success!
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Friday July 11, 2008, 4:30 pm
Michael - thank you for your response. I know the answers already - that is why I stated they were rhetorical questions. It is just so sad. If you look at some of my earlier comments here you will see that I have mentioned power and greed, or that may have been in another group, about another issue - not quite sure. But that is what is always boils down to - sadly. And yes - those that do this know they are doing something wrong.

Sadly - I have firsthand knowledge of this.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday July 11, 2008, 5:15 pm

The Women's International League for Peace and Freedom has been working on these issues for many years.

Those who sincerely wish to help the kids might consider joining some of the organizations that have a long history of understanding and working on campaigns with regard to this problem, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

Save the Children UK has done years of on-the-ground investigating and reporting, and their campaigns have forced the United Nations to finally acknowledge and investigate itself.

Anyone who cares about the kids would at the very least join and support the efforts of those groups with a credible record on this issue, and enlist their input, support, and sponsorship for any further petition efforts.

One of the reasons given that the petition effort discussed in this topic might be more successful than other efforts, was that it was addressed to individuals. Such individuals are not dictators-for-life. They occupy positions which rotate, and such positions have been held by numerous people over the years that these problems have been spotlighted. Efforts by credible groups to petition organizations with authority, rather than their temporary officers, have the potential to be acted on by those organizations even if their officers have changed in the interim.


 

Past Member (0)
Friday July 11, 2008, 5:38 pm
Elizabeth,

Yes I agree it is sad but there is always hope.

There's always tomorrow which can can have the hopes, dreams and wishes that aren't able to be accomplished today.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Saturday July 12, 2008, 2:49 am
Elizabeth,

"Nemo - The list of those who have abused power is just endless."

My thoughts about the entitlement wasn't necessarily an attempt to answer your rethorical questions as much as it was meant to point to a basic attitude problem. An attitude problem that in this particular case lies within a cultural/structural scope specific to the UN Peacekeepers. It *can be observed* f.i among US and its Allies' troops, as proven by the abuses carried out in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and as such it is a global matter that is tied to being the "conquerer" where a dehumaniztion of "the enemy" takes place on a very early stage. But specifically in relations to the UN and its Peacekeepers, I think it is tied in with the prestige.

This attitude has to be changed of course, which imo is just another reason why UN Peacekeepers need to be brought under International Jurisdiction immediately as well as enrolled in International Educational programs that will impart to them that it's a privilege to serve as a UN Peacekeeper, but a privilege that carries far more ethical and moral obligations than just being a basic army grunt.

The UN is in dire need of reform. Not only in this particular area, but on an overall basis.

The Human Rights Council has been taken over by those who wish to suppress and oppress their own citizens and who wish to dictate to the UN what is and what is not human rights violations.

Many complain that the UN is corrupt and should be dismantled, and they are correct in that it is corrupt, but it is corrupt not because it is the UN, an International Organ to represent us all, but because human beings within it are corrupt. UN needs to be subjected to an independent oversight "committee" that has no national ties, and that is given the power to veto any changes to any UN Charters or Documents that will fundamentally alter the definition of human rights, to protect the sanctity of the UDHR and to bring any erring UN Functionaries to justice when they violate, whether by proxy or by themselves, the UDHR in spirit or in practice. Eventually I would like to see the UN become a truly International Organ, where the functionaries (including Peacekeepers) become stateless citizens of the World when they enter into service and swear an oath to uphold the UDHR at all times. But that is just a dream.
Nemo
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Saturday July 12, 2008, 10:54 am
Nemo - I understand that you weren't necessarily answering my question. I agree with everything in your post.

Elizabeth
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday July 13, 2008, 8:05 am
So, is anyone going to do something about the petition or is it now really dead? It would be nice to know what's happening.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 13, 2008, 1:23 pm
I haven't heard anything about it in the last few days. I heard that a couple HRN members were going to post it in a few groups but that's all I've heard.

It's received about 12 signatures or so in the last week.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday July 13, 2008, 7:58 pm
**** SIGH ****
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Monday July 14, 2008, 1:03 am
You know, Marena and Michael, it seems the detractors managed to kill this petition, which is really a shame, because it's a good petition.

Silly Old Bear left Care2 altogether, but I don't think that is going to help.
Nemo
 

Rebecca Forste (475)
Monday July 14, 2008, 8:31 am
There was nothing inappropriate about the post which was just removed from this thread.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 11:47 am
Nemo wrotes:

"You know, Marena and Michael, it seems the detractors managed to kill this petition, which is really a shame, because it's a good petition."

So what prevents us from getting it going again?
 

Marena Chen (200)
Monday July 14, 2008, 11:54 am
Like a moth drawn to the flame, I keep coming back here hoping for a ray of sunshine. Alas - The cloud cover has not lifted.

Rebecca F. You had a post removed too? Sorry I did not get to read it.

Yes Nemo, it looks like the end of the petition.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:00 pm
Michael, you and I must have been posting at the very same moment.

I agree, what IS preventing us from getting it going again?

By the way, is it possible to flip this thread? It takes ages to get down here.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:06 pm
I would like to see the petition get going again. As is.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:07 pm
"So what prevents us from getting it going again?"

Nothing, I suppose.

It hasn't been closed has it?
Nemo
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:18 pm
I just went and looked. It doesn't seem to be closed, so nothing should in reality keep it from gaining more signatures. Last signature was added yesterday. It looks like all it needs is some positive exposure and promotion.
Nemo
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:19 pm
Yes, again...AS IS... and YES please flip the thread...
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:22 pm
The petition really needs to be rewritten. It was modified after many people have signed it. This would be the equivalent of someone altering a contract after you signed it in good faith without your knowledge. I will support and help promote a rewritten petition, but I cannot in good faith support it is as.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:43 pm
The petition has been re-written once, identical in intent to the original...Why again?
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 12:54 pm
Please see my last post for an explanation David. Thank you.
 

Nemo Niente (13)
Monday July 14, 2008, 1:13 pm
Michael,

Do you mean like re-submitted as if it had just been created? Or are you proposing writing a completely other petition?

I am all for a re-submission of the same text. Possibly the entire text would need to be in the overview, so people don't have to read the letter to read the petition.

Why don't we ask the original authors and sponsors if that wouldn't be a good solution? They might be willing to do just that?
Nemo
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 1:17 pm
What I am proposing is that the current petition be scrapped and a new one be written.

I think this is something that everyone present believes in, so why not do it this way?

This cause is just as important to me as it is anyone else here. Can we all agree that this cause is important to all of us?
 

Michael W (72)
Monday July 14, 2008, 2:21 pm
I am not for scrapping the petition. Anybody is entitled to write one so be our guests and I mean that with respect.The more the merrier. You are an articulate fellow Michel C with a large following so it shouldn't be a problem. Anybody who has signed this one is welcome to review and have their signatures removed if they choose to. Care2 made it apparent above that they felt there was not going to be and no need for change.I sympathize with those who didn't read the attached letter but in a few very vocal claims that has been used as a stray man to denigrate the authors and sponsors. I have talked to people in Australia and Netherlands who had no problems in reading through the entire petition.
As for validity of groups- John Hally AI's liason in Rwanda and Adriano Solvo recruiter for AI in US was contacted from the HRN site and Adres Viljoen an assistant director at the Dutch campus of the school that feeds personnel into AI ALL claim that every entity on Care2 claiming association has the same level of affiliation. That could easily be double talk for none do do, they all have little association or that until 4 years ago they were generic groups posted to Care2 looking for owners/sponsors which have sense been put in place. All have been sent copies of the petition and in the exception of changing one name no request of alteration has been suggested.

Like was suggested above I have no desire to reinvent the wheel. Should others want to please do.

I will not start defending each codicil or provision. The concept of legality because of potential change holds little validity. Once the petition and if reaches target #'s it will the been put in .pdf format allowing for no change and can be place on Care2 for all signatories approval, if at that time people wish to have their names removed of others added, it can be done, signatures finalized. If it is finished in time to be received in time to be placed on the ICC's last meeting agenda prior to recess, it will reach there in a legally authenticate format with electronic signatures, with full electronically notarized as the petition, as is stated from Care2 in combination with those external sites it may garner signatures from. It will cost approximately $120.00USD UPS/$150.00USD DHL / 3 copies, to get it hand delivered if within 5 days. The closer dates get the larger the increase in delivery cost.
I am now out of this thread, have no intention of tracking. Sorry to seem abrupt but this has gone on long enough.
 

Elizabeth N (40)
Monday July 14, 2008, 2:52 pm
Thank you Michael W.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2008, 3:53 pm
Thank you for the compliment Michael W. I may write my own petition at some point in the future.

Jon, Elizabeth and Nemo,

I am sorry that we were unable to resolve this dispute and I wish all of you luck with your petition.

Thank you for listening.
 
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