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Mukasey Refuses Probe of Bush Aides


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: constitution, rule of law, treason, illegal, mukasey, meirs, bolten, impeach )

Ratty
- 4123 days ago - news.yahoo.com
OUR SYSTEM and Rule of law is almost gone. We HAVE TO IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY TO BEGIN WITH. Every cause we fight for hinges on us having a free country and rule of law. Links below lead to SOME of the things we MUST DO. Look below.



   

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Comments

Ratty R (160)
Friday February 29, 2008, 7:49 pm

email:

sf.nancy@mail.house.gov

and

AmericanVoices@mail.house.gov
 

Ratty R (160)
Friday February 29, 2008, 7:49 pm

call:

(415) 556-4862

and

(202) 225-4965
 

Ratty R (160)
Friday February 29, 2008, 7:49 pm

Write:

District Office -
450 Golden Gate Ave. -
14th Floor -
San Francisco,
CA 94102

and

Washington, D.C. Office -
235 Cannon HOB -
Washington, DC
20515
 

Ratty R (160)
Friday February 29, 2008, 7:50 pm

Her website:


http://www.house.gov/pelosi/contact/contact.html
 

Ratty R (160)
Friday February 29, 2008, 7:50 pm

Impeachment is necessary.



1) http://wexlerwantshearings.com



2) http://www.usalone.com/




3) http://www.impeachbush.org



4) http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/




5) http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=6



6) http://www.congress.org



7) http://senate.gov/


  


8) freewayblogger.com



9)

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=5103&PST=744610&archival=&posts=87

 

Ratty R (160)
Friday February 29, 2008, 7:51 pm

We need to pressure these people on a HUGE scale my friends, so PLEASE do as many of these things daily as possible, we can not relent.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 29, 2008, 8:39 pm

Uh, Rats, I've been doing all these things for a long time. There's just one little problem, okay?

You said, "We have to impeach Bush and Cheney...." Well, we don't have the Constitutional right to impeach anybody. Only Congress can do that, and if they don't, we don't have the Constitutional right to impeach or recall them. All we can do is wait for the next rigged election, as if anybody but a millionaire or billionaire war profiteer could win.

The Democrats who confirmed Mukasey knew he wouldn't prosecute anyone in the Bush administration. Confirming Mukasey was part of the Democratic strategy to protect Bush and Cheney from impeachment and/or investigation.

Do you understand that the Democratic Party leadership and the Democratic majority in Congress does NOT want to impeach Bush and Cheney, and they don't even want to discuss it?

Do you understand that the few maverick Democrats and Republicans in Congress who DO want to impeach Bush and Cheney are a tiny minority without the power to do anything, and that due to rigged elections, it is impossible for us to elect a majority of mavericks?

The sooner we wake up and recognize that Congress represents the wealthy elites and the war profiteers like Bush and Cheney and themselves, and do not represent us, the sooner we can withdraw our support for this rotten system and get a better one, or at least a different one. This one doesn't work. Bush and Cheney still have a 19% approval rating. But in Congress they have better than an 80% approval rating. That's because their base is the "haves and the have-mores" as Bush put it, meaning millionaires and billionaires like the people in Congress. The reason they do not respond to us is because they are NOT our representatives.

If we'd been paying attention, we'd have realized a long time ago not only that our elections are rigged, but that even if we had honest elections, we don't get a fair choice of candidates. We don't select the candidates, the political parties do. And they select people who will represent THEM, not us.

I appreciate how hard you work, Rats. But you can't get blood out of a stone. No matter how much we pressure them, Congress is still going to represent themselves, not us. They know we don't have the Constitutional power to remove them, or even the power to get rid of the central tabulators and get transparent elections. They have the power, they like having the power, and they aren't going to give up their power because we keep asking them to.

They know that you're going to vote for them, because nobody else has a chance of winning. So as long as you keep voting for them, they can keep kicking you in the teeth and you can keep coming back for more, because you are recognizing their authority, instead of ignoring them and going directly to the real power in this country, We the People.

If we withdraw our support, stop asking people for things they are not willing to do, stop voting for people who will not represent us, and start ignoring them completely, we might have a chance. Every member of congress gets hundreds if not thousands of letters, emails, faxes, and phone calls every day. What would happen if tomorrow they didn't get any? And the next day? And when they held an election, nobody voted?

If you disapprove of them, and most people do, since Congress doesn't have a much higher approval rating than the people they are protecting from impeachment, Bush and Cheney, do what the early Americans did: shun them.

Albert Einstein said that insanity is repeating the same experiment over and over and expecting different results. Don't you think it is time we tried a different experiment, Rats?

Senator John Olver opposes impeachment. His constituents brought him signed affidavits proving that more than 80% of them favored impeachment. He didn't care. Congress knows that most Americans want impeachment, you don't have to keep telling them -- they've known it for a long time. They don't care.

Do you care? Because if you really do, you'll stop asking the crooks and liars in Congress to pretty please with sugar on it stop being crooks and liars, and start being a responsible citizen who doesn't ask crooks and liars for anything, doesn't vote for crooks and liars, and wants nothing to do with crooks and liars.

THAT'S how we can take this country back.

Honestly.

 

Tim Redfern (581)
Friday February 29, 2008, 9:29 pm
Mukasey said Bolten and Miers were right in ignoring subpoenas to provide Congress with White House documents or testify about the firings of federal prosecutors.

WRONG! It is never, EVER right to
ignore a subpoena, regardless of
the circumstances! What do they
think "contempt" means?!
I've been saying for some time
that Repugs and emocrats are
just opposite sides of the same
coin, and therefore, one unit.
So, who was it that suggested
Mukasey for A.G. in the first
place?
Sen. Charles Schumer, (D-NY).

Mark, congrats to you for being
the one to stand up and say the
emperor has no clothes. Congress
will NEVER impeach, and if we are
really going to get genuine change
in this country, it's likely going
to involve violent revolution and
bloodshed, theirs and ours. The
situation has degraded so far that
there isn't any other way left.

Rats, keep going, brother, because
you have done, and continue to do
good and important work. I realise
that calling for a violent overthrow
of the govt. is an imprisonable offense,
but if we get a couple million people
calling for it, the bastards can't lock
us all up.
Perhaps a slight change of tack is called
for?....if y'know what I mean?

noted with thanks.
 

Ratty R (160)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 1:28 am

I see what you're saying Mark, but I think we can do more than one thing at a time, and completely ignoring these creeps in office would make them happy as can be. I don't ask them,... when I write and call I tell them.

As for not voting, it might end up with the same outcome, but I'll always vote---even if it has to be for a local or write in candidate and if I have nothing to do with them, that means you don't want me going to a public meeting and informing all the people there of facts. I went to a DOE meeting and was the only one that pointed out the danger of DU.

Not participating at all is the same as being locked up. And they want that.

We need to drastically change things and that's a complete fact, we need so many things changed we couldn't even list them here, but I won't just ignore the system, I will vote, but it won't be for Hillary or Obama or anyone else who is already part of the machine. Yes I know my vote probably doesn't even get counted, but if none of us voted, they would love it cause they would read that as we gave up. Then they would probably just go ahead and go for martial law figuring we all gave up.

People ignoring them is how we got to this place we're at. We as a people left the kids in the candy store unattended and now they are all cranked up on sugar and wanting more. Ignoring them won't stop them.

The high disapproval of the war and of Cheney and Bush didn't come from nowhere, it came from the vocal ones showing it was not only ok to speak out, but necessary. You hear it in stores. You didn't hear it in stores 2 years ago. All those people that were silent had something that tipped them over and made them hate a guy they voted for. And now they say it in public.

Them seeing impeachment not get moving when they see so many working for it and so many with verifiable facts, then they will get madder and more vocal which will wake up more people.

Plus, the net is international and the world HAS to see us trying. If you look at some posts I've done, people from other countries have thanked me for posting stuff like impeachment. I think it's critical they know we aren't just all "good quiet Germans" that allowed Hitler to try to rule the world.

There are many, many angles to approach these problems.

Note that one of the posts in my group under impeachment is calling for a national strike.

I don't think there is any one single way.

 

Alf I (246)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 5:45 am
Why not support Kucinich. HE stood up for impeachment!! A lone voice of reason in a stew of insanity! Now it looks like he may lose his seat in congress altogether!!
 

Penelope P (222)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 6:39 am
Thankyou Mark Noted
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 6:54 am

Alf, Kucinich is a member of the Democratic Party. He belongs to a party that opposes everything he claims to stand for. If you claimed to oppose racism, but you belonged to the KKK, I wouldn't take you seriously.

Rats, I too have gone to public meetings to speak out, and so have many of my friends. They allow public comments for the same reason they allow elections: to give the appearance of public support for policies they impose anyway.

It doesn't matter if you ask mommy and daddy for a cookie, or you tell them that you want a cookie, if they don't want you to have any more cookies, they won't give you any. Congress doesn't want us to have impeachment, so it doesn't matter if we ask them or tell them. Until we grow up, get a job, and buy our own cookies, we have to depend on mommy and daddy. Until we withdraw our support from a corrupt government, it can continue to dictate to us.

You wrote: "Yes I know my vote probably doesn't even get counted, but if none of us voted, they would love it cause they would read that as we gave up." Check yourself, Rats. You know your vote probably doesn't get counted, but you continue to vote anyway? If you gave your paycheck to your teenaged kid every week and they spent it on drugs, would you continue to give it to them? Do you think it would make them happy if you stopped? Or would they prefer that you keep doing it? When somebody abuses your trust, it might be a good idea to stop trusting them. When you appeal to Congress or vote in rigged elections, you are legitimizing the right of a corrupt government to take our tax money and give it to Halliburton. Are you sure you want to keep doing that?

Ignoring THEM isn't what got us here. Do the research. We VOTED. We elected first Gore and then Kerry. THEY IGNORED US AND INSTALLED BUSH. They didn't bother to count the votes we cast.

Please read my post above. Getting more people mad will NOT help. Whether only 80% of their constituents want impeachment, or it is 90%, or even 100%, if Congresscritters don't want impeachment they will continue to ignore us. There is no strength in numbers if all you use it for is to appeal to people who don't care.

The world already knows that Bush has a 19% approval rating and that Congress has a less than 25% approval rating. They want to know why we keep voting in rigged elections like "good quiet Germans" instead of withdrawing our consent from a government guilty of crimes against humanity. Most people from other countries have free and fair elections, so many of them don't understand that our elections are rigged and that our votes don't count.

50% of eligible voters are already on strike and will not vote in rigged elections for the candidates of the oligarchy or even cast protest votes that are meaningless. The other 50% keep right on voting because even though they know from experience that it doesn't change anything, they are afraid to do things differently. If you want things to change, you have to do things differently. Otherwise things stay the same.
 

Bill McGlone (103)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 11:21 am
All I can say to you folks is this: When we run out of the cake we are forced to eat, we will storm the "Bastille"!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 11:54 am
READ IT ALL! And remember my name, I will not back down until we have won.

Impeaching Bush and Cheney is not the most important or only thing we need to focus on. We will not let up, but we have to keep our eyes on the future.

This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Understand this for all it means, the people really are the key. For generations, the MSM has been the most influential force in our Democracy. All across the world, we are challenging that right now, our numbers are growing, and our awareness is spreading. Do not back down, we are gaining momentum, I have witnessed change already, it is happening, we just need to be able to see and recognize it, and we can not allow frustration and despair to beat us down.

Congress has let us down, but! it is not their job to stack the deck in our favor. If we want to be a great nation, it will be up to the people. We have been at the mercy of the corporate media's influence, it is not the government that has failed us, but we the people that have failed ourselves, our government, and our nation. Our parents and grandparents never had the opportunity we have today, an opportunity(obligation?) that I am taking advantage of right now.

I have a voice! I will be heard! My parents didn't, couldn't, and didn't even know it. Change is here, but it isn't a magical poof that will make everything better. We have to stick it out. Raise the voice of the people, make them understand. Our numbers are growing, and we are being heard.

Keep reading! I'm not done.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 12:30 pm
A government of the people. If you are not happy with your Representatives, challenge their position. Run for office, but understand that elections do not make leaders. Demand better and expect it. If your representative will not listen, go over their head, and talk to their people. Challenge their position, threaten their job security, make sure that they understand we expect better. Mark said that impeachment is a right that congress has, not one we have, and he is right. If we are going to have any integrity in our government, we have to elect integrity.

Change is a long term project that requires a long term commitment, it didn't all go wrong overnight, and it isn't going to all go right over night. The tobacco companies would like to continue advertising to minors, not because they want to sell their product to minors, but because they intend to still be in business long after these kids have died of old age. The people need to understand that unless we prepare for, and start building our future now, we will always be at the mercy of those that do.

America needs leaders, not just elected politicians. Like myself, many of you will understand that it is your obligation to stand up in this world and fill that position. Leadership is what will make this nation great, the greatest power a president has is not his veto, signing statements or even executive orders, but his ability to address the nation and the world.

Your vote is important, not by itself, but together, united with all those who share our hope for our children, with all those who share our understanding of what it means to be a great nation, united in a common belief that we can be a government of, by and for the people. We have the power to change the world, to lead the way even without recognition, an official position, or anyones permission to do so. As long as I have a voice, I have hope, and I will pursue my dreams to the end. We will raise the voice of the people, and we will be heard.

Don't stop now!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 12:41 pm
couldn't have said it better myself, James!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 12:54 pm
This is our government! Our government can not be seen as a separate entity, out of our control, against us, something to be feared or fought against. It is ours to shape and mold, to be part of, and take part in, until we realize that, demand it, and make it real, we will be at the mercy of those who do.

Everyone has watched a debate and seen our ideas bashed, our goals shot down with false premises, lies, and the typical fear based spin. We have also sat back in frustration claiming that if this one thing was said, this one piece of supporting logic expressed, the whole attack against our ideas and dreams would fall apart and we would prevail. You have in your hands the right words, the keys to our success and the quality of leadership that our nation needs. Raise your voice, spread this knowledge and let it unfold, change will come when our leaders stand up. Knowing the right words to say obligates you to stand up and be heard. Do not follow in our parents foot steps, and you will know that change has already begun.

Will our footsteps be worthy of being followed?

Read on people, for you are my government of the people, and I expect and demand more.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 1:46 pm
We have far more power than our parents could have ever dreamed of. Google anything, and imagine tracking down that information from books in the library. If knowledge is power, and it is, this is the most powerful generation in history. Read the comments on these simple pages and understand how far our voices can reach. The Wartime Propaganda is failing because placing the Japanese in concentration camps would not prevent us from asking them if the lies are true or not. Do they hate us for our freedom? Not according to my friends in the Middle East. The control of information is no longer out of our reach. Unlike our parents, we can just ask.

Propaganda has been used to control our live since the book was written. Read it, grasp it's power for yourself, for me, for your children, our future, and we will achieve what none have ever believed possible. The propagation of lies requires far more effort and power to spread than the propagation of truth, integrity and logic are on our side, the balance of power in exposure and influence is shifting our way. Realize it, see the change that is already here and embrace it. This is our time, we are in control now, but we must be willing to lead the way and influence the majority.

One election can not determine our success or failure, one president can not determine the fate of our nation, regardless of who becomes our next president, we have already moved forward. The "emotional right" is falling, the pundits have lost touch, or more accurately, been left behind. Coulter, Limbaugh, and the rest of the far right mouth pieces have already been defeated by their own followers in the primaries. The right is moving left, they still don't understand the relationship between peace and security, but it is only because the right words haven't been said enough. Don't get me wrong, I advocate peace, not pacifism. The proximity of the sword determines whether the pen is mightier or not.

Keep reading! We will win.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 2:21 pm

James, you are so close to the truth it is incredible. Didn't somebody once say that heaven is only a few feet away, but an eighth of an inch makes a difference?

This IS our country, but this government is not ours. Instead of trying to take part in a corrupt government that does not represent us, we need to take charge and to become a participatory democracy where everyone has a say in how this country is run. WE need to be able to directly vote on how our tax money is spent, not leave that decision to millionaires and billionaires in Washington. We need to be able to directly vote on whether or not to go to war, not leave that decision to millionaire and billionaire war profiteers. But before we could do that, we need to get rid of the optical scanner and the central tabulators that make it impossible for us to know if our votes were counted. We have to stop voting in faith-based elections. If you're a faith-based person, fine. Pray. But please don't vote. God didn't create voting machines, Diebold did.

"Our" leaders are never going to stand up, except when they're telling campaign lies. We the People have to stand up.

No member of the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Bilderbergers, the Bohemian Club, or the Democratic or Republican party leadership will stand up for us. In Venezuela and Bolivia the people elected a common person, an indigenous person. It doesn't matter who is the titular leader, as long as they lead by obeying the will of the people. Notice that when Hugo Chavez lost his referendum, he accepted the loss? When has our "government" ever bowed to the will of the people?

The drunken, drugged-out, drooling, dirty homeless man or woman on the corner could do as good a job of governing as Bush, Cheney, the Supreme Court, and Congress. They could get us into wars where we don't belong and can't win, they could bankrupt the treasury, they could mismanage as well as any photogenic billionaire. We have to stop being afraid of ourselves and start realizing that most of us could do a BETTER job than the crooks who have stolen power through rigged elections and corrupt party politics.

Any working person could run the country more effectively than the crooks in power now. Anyone living below the poverty level can balance a budget better.

The first thing we need for a nonviolent revolution to occur is honest elections. As long as we continue to vote in rigged elections, we won't get honest ones. If we'll settle for inferior goods, nobody is going to sell us the good stuff. We're educated consumers. We know that. We know that if we don't think a product is healthy, we have to boycott it until it is taken off the market for lack of sales -- we can't wait for government regulators who may never do anything anyway because they're being bribed.

Voting machines, particularly the central tabulators that count more than 80% of all U.S. votes, are NOT HEALTHY FOR DEMOCRACY. They are the GMOs, the pesticides, the antibiotics, the toxins of the electoral process. They are NOT GOOD FOR YOU. Insist on clean elections the same way you insist on non-GMO organic foods.

Once we have clean elections, publicly funded elections, and all the other reforms we need, the WE can run for office and encourage our friends to do so, because THEN we would not be seeking power withing a system that will either corrupt us, spit us out, or ignore us as irrelevant, but we would be taking back the power which is rightfully ours.

 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 2:48 pm
We can not accept defeat in the "War on Terrorism".

We need to understand that we will never defeat the extremists in any other nation while we accept, tolerate or support them in our own. We can not expect to win by only recognizing one brand of extremist as such, or by labeling only one form of violence as terrorism. To win this war we must recognize that all forms of violence invoke terror, suffering and loss. Extremists and the ongoing conflicts in other nations are what has promoted the Extremists to power in ours, and so it is in other nations. If our government is seen as hostile and a threat to other nations, this view will lend power to those with similar tendencies around the world. The Republicans claim that we need strong leadership that is willing to go to war to protect our interests because there are dangerous nations out there that would do us harm. The same ideas is being promoted in those nations as a response to ours and so on. The cycle of violence extends into a self-reliant cycle of fear. Extreme governments that are opposed to each other are the only reason any of them are capable of gaining power.

To defeat the extremists in any nation, we must defeat them in every nation. The distinction that needs to be made is between those who advocate violence as the answer, and those who oppose it. All across the world, the response to hostile governments has been to elect hostile government. We need to understand the root of the problem here and the deception in it. It is not hostile leaders who are electing hostile leaders. The leaders are not capable of solving this problem on their own, so we must go over their heads, and go straight to the people.

I don't just want the people here reading this to understand what I am saying. We do not represent a large enough group for our understanding to make a difference. We must stand up and be heard, the insight we have and the solutions we see must be propagated around the world. No nation can bring peace to the world alone, we are all in this together, all dependent upon each other. It is not our presidents or any of our elected officials that control our future.

Remember, elections do not make leaders, and leaders do not need to be elected or recognized. Every man, women, and child is subject to being governed by ideas, those who form these ideas and set them into motion are the true leaders in this world.

Raise the voice of the people, starting with your own.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 3:40 pm
Mark, I voted on paper, it was easy, yet there is still no guarantee that it was counted, there never will be any guarantee.

I agree that voting machines are not good for our Democracy, I don't trust them either, but before you can eliminate the voting machine, you will first have to convince the majority to do so. How is not voting, not writing to congress, or any other boycott of the system going to help you achieve that? The failures of our Democracy are deeper and older than voting machines, but these failures our being corrected. Encouraging people to not vote is pure ignorance. A complete boycott of the system might work if you could achieve that. But, Mark, how are you going to address, and convince all of the people to follow your lead on this boycott? Sorry Mark, but the idea is very narrow minded. Next thing you need to consider is who you are asking to not vote. Umm hello, please if you insist on encouraging people to not vote, target the emotional right first. Lets get the other side to stop voting first so that we don't just hand them complete undisputed power. Please think these things through.

Don't give up Mark, and please don't encourage other to either. Push for paper, absentee voting is a good option if you can't get paper at the booth. Your vote may not be counted even if you vote on paper, but I absolutely guarantee that it will not be counted if you don't vote.

Take on electronic voting as your cause, lead the way, but do it in a manner that encourages voting on paper, and voting down the use of machine voting. Understand how democracy can be on your side, if you push legislation to ban the machine, all you need to reach is a majority, if you push for people to only vote on paper while the machine is still an option, you need to reach everyone. Reaching the people on any issue is the real obstacle, even if we can directly vote on going to war, if we can overcome that, nothing can stop us.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 6:48 pm
James wrote: "Mark, I voted on paper, it was easy, yet there is still no guarantee that it was counted, there never will be any guarantee."

Uh, James, I'm just curious about something. Rather personal, so if you want to answer in a private message rather than publicly that's okay. My question is WOULD YOU USE AN ATM IF THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE THAT YOU'D GET YOUR MONEY?

James: "I agree that voting machines are not good for our Democracy, I don't trust them either, but before you can eliminate the voting machine, you will first have to convince the majority to do so."

Does a majority mean 50 percent plus one? If so, since 50% already don't vote, I'd only have to convince you.

James: "How is not voting, not writing to congress, or any other boycott of the system going to help you achieve that?"

Achieve what, convincing the majority not to vote? You've apparently been voting and writing to Congress, and you've succeeded in convincing 50% NOT to vote. Was that your intention?

James: "The failures of our Democracy are deeper and older than voting machines, but these failures our being corrected."

REALLY???????!!!!!!!! I'd like to support that. How are the failures of our democracy "being corrected"? Do you mean that people are organizing to ask Congress to correct the failures that Congress itself enacted into law? Good luck with that.

James: "Encouraging people to not vote is pure ignorance."

Personal attacks violate the Care2 Code of Conduct, but if that's the only argument you can muster against the issue, I guess that's the best you can do. That is your opinion, but the reverse may be true in the opinion of others.

James: "A complete boycott of the system might work if you could achieve that. But, Mark, how are you going to address, and convince all of the people to follow your lead on this boycott?"

One at a time, James, one at a time. Do you avoid leaving the house in the morning because you'd have to take several steps and you can only take one step at a time? You want 100% perfection and task completion before you even start work? And it isn't actually my idea or my lead that I want people to follow. Many other people have advocated the same thing, and I've posted many articles by others on Care2. And they don't want people to follow their lead either. All we want is for people to wake up and use their own common sense. Elections determine who gets to decide how this nation's money is spent. It you wouldn't trust your money to a voting machine, don't trust your vote to it, because that not just a quick twenty or forty or even a couple of hundred bucks from an ATM machine, that's your labor for the first few months of every year.

James: "Sorry Mark, but the idea is very narrow minded."

Ignorance, narrow minded...next thing you'll be calling me a neo-con. LOL

James: "Next thing you need to consider is who you are asking to not vote. Umm hello, please if you insist on encouraging people to not vote, target the emotional right first."

Hah! I predicted that one correctly, didn't I? I've been attacked by political operatives online for over twenty-five years, so I know pretty much what people like you are going to say.

James: "Lets get the other side to stop voting first so that we don't just hand them complete undisputed power."

So you LIED when you said that you don't trust the voting machines. You still think that Bush was actually elected and that our votes count? James, when a town has fewer than 400 registered voters, and it tallies 10,000 votes for Bush, IT IS NOT BECAUSE DEMOCRATS DIDN'T VOTE. That's not rocket science.

James: "Please think these things through."

You're telling ME to think things through? That's hilarious. I don't go around spouting fallacious talking points like "If we don't vote, the bad guys will win," or "it is our civic duty to vote in rigged elections." I've been active in election reform for many years and I've spent that time doing the research and thinking about it. What have you been doing, getting out the vote?

James: "Don't give up Mark, and please don't encourage other to either."

Think, James. You can do this. Is refusing to vote in rigged elections and insisting upon honest elections, "giving up"? In Ireland, when their government tried to introduce electronic voting machines, the Irish just refused to vote on them, and the government had to scrap them. It is the people who say, "Well, the government will only let us vote if they can hack the machines so our votes won't count, so we don't have any choice but to let them," who are giving up, James. Even worse, they're giving up the same way that Gore and Kerry did, without caring whether or not our votes are counted.

James: "Push for paper, absentee voting is a good option if you can't get paper at the booth. Your vote may not be counted even if you vote on paper, but I absolutely guarantee that it will not be counted if you don't vote."

Right. So you're asking me to GAMBLE with democracy, even though I've done the RESEARCH and I know for a FACT that our votes don't count, and you suggest that I take a chance that they possibly might count anyway, because maybe the programmers who rig the elections will make a mistake, so I should go ahead and risk my vote just because it isn't really important to you whether my vote does or doesn't count?

James: "Take on electronic voting as your cause..."

Been there, done that, for quite a few years now. And so have thousands of other people in the election reform movement.

James: "...lead the way..."

I'm not a candidate seeking power, or a political operative trying to get people to vote in rigged elections by touting crooked candidates as being slighly less evil than the other crooked candidates. You're the one setting yourself up as the authority and telling me what to do. And if I hadn't heard it all a thousand times before, and done my homework, and thought it through, and listened to more intelligent people than myself, I might be vulnerable to your misguided authoritarianism and name-calling, but I'm not.

James: "...but do it in a manner that encourages voting on paper, and voting down the use of machine voting."

James. Take this slowly, one word at a time, okay. THE PAPER BALLOTS ARE COUNTED BY CENTRAL TABULATORS. You cannot force the guy who programs the central tabulator to rig the election so as to do himself and his bosses out of their jobs. The reason they rig the elections is to grab and hold on to power. You'd need HONEST elections WITHOUT rigged voting machines before you could change anything through elections. At a minimum. You'd actually need more than that, but without that you're wasting your vote.

James: "Understand how democracy can be on your side..."

I do understand how democracy could be on my side, James. But we don't happen to have a democracy.

James: "...if you push legislation to ban the machine..."

James, the machines were INTRODUCED by legislation. Bob Ney, the sponsor of the bill (HAVA) was just moved from federal prison to a halfway house. In a democracy, when a law was passed by a criminal, the criminal's conviction would trigger an investigation of any criminal laws he pushed through Congress with the help of his criminal friends.

James: "....all you need to reach is a majority...."

A majority of the people, or a majority of Congress? We already have a majority of the people. Most Americans want Bush & Cheney impeached and an end to the war crimes. But we can't get a majority of the millionaire and billionaire war profiteers in Congress because they were selected, groomed for office, bankrolled, given media coverage, given their marching orders by the CFR, the TC, and the BB, and then "elected" by the rigged voting machines, and they obey their corporate masters and are not responsive to the American people.

James: "...if you push for people to only vote on paper while the machine is still an option, you need to reach everyone."

No, the more intelligent half the country already understands the problem. Now we just have to reach the voters, the more gullible half.

James: "Reaching the people on any issue is the real obstacle, even if we can directly vote on going to war, if we can overcome that, nothing can stop us."

Two IF's in one sentence? And you're telling me what to do because you believe that I'm acting out of ignorance and you have all the answers?

Check yourself, James. You're the one trying to keep people in ignorance and to put yourself forth as a leader with authority. Repeating the same mistakes over and over is not going to change anything. I never claimed to have all the answers and I don't tell people what to do. I lay out the facts and make suggestions. I want people to think, so that they can be equal citizens in a participatory democracy, not to obey authority out of fear that if they don't, things might get even worse than they already are.

I'm not telling you not to vote, James. I'm telling you that if you cared about real democracy where everyone's vote counted and really mattered, you wouldn't be urging people to gamble their votes in rigged elections with no guarantee. What are they supposed to do then? Go home and pray that their votes might accidentally be counted? Accept the results even if they know for a fact that the election was rigged, because they voted so they have no right to complain?

Isn't that a classic double bind? If you vote, and you realize that the election was stolen, you can't complain because that would make you a sore loser. And if you don't vote, you can't complain, because you didn't vote. so no matter what you do, you can't complain, right? Well, the guys who wrote the Declaration of Independence didn't believe that. What they wrote was a long LIST of complaints and they didn't ask any king or president for permission to write it. They considered it their inalienable right.

And it is also ours.


 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 7:10 pm
Mark, it's all here for everyone to read for themselves. I don't see any great insight in what you have said, I don't see that you have rebuked anything I said, and I don't think others will either. I believe that most people will keep voting rather than accepting and succumbing to defeat. You're just one vote, I'm sorry to see you give that up, but it is your choice, just don't expect a huge following or much help in gaining one. Some will give up like you have and others will join, they always have and always will.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday March 1, 2008, 7:57 pm

James, continuing to vote in rigged elections because poor, helpless little you, what else can you do, IS ACCEPTING AND SUCCUMBING TO DEFEAT.

In a democracy, you have the right to honest elections, but it won't be handed to you on a silver platter by crooked politicians. You have to fight for it, not give up and accept rigged elections.

In a rigged election, you're not even one vote. In that town with fewer than 400 registered voters that tallied 10,000 votes for Bush, only the person who programmed the vote tallying tabulator to produce that result had a vote.

Bad enough that you don't care enough about democracy to insist on honest elections and to boycott rigged ones, but urging others to do the same is unconscionable.

I'm not looking for a following the way you are. I don't tell people what to do the way you do. And now that your man Kucinich has dropped out of the presidential race, which war criminal do you intend to vote for?

Stop calling names and look at yourself in the mirror, James. Do you care about democracy? Then why do you vote in rigged elections? Do you care about peace? Then why do you vote for war criminals? And if you don't care, which you apparently don't, the please stop telling everyone else what to do.

 

Blue Bunting (855)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 11:37 am
Angry Bear: A payoff so obvious that even the cheerleaders can spot it.
 

Melissa Kush (3)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 2:03 pm
Some excellent wisdom here, Mark...when you posted, The first thing we need for a nonviolent revolution to occur is honest elections. As long as we continue to vote in rigged elections, we won't get honest ones. If we'll settle for inferior goods, nobody is going to sell us the good stuff. We're educated consumers. We know that. We know that if we don't think a product is healthy, we have to boycott it until it is taken off the market for lack of sales -- we can't wait for government regulators who may never do anything anyway because they're being bribed.

Now, how can we get this boycott going before election day? I'm all for trying anything peaceful to make a difference. Is it OK with you if I use some of your words of wisdom in a letter to the editor? I'll make a sign for in my yard, adjacent to a highly traveled road out of town, "Boycott Election Day, because of easy to rig voting machines." It'll probably get stolen...just like the 'Vote for Ron Paul', sign. But, short of 'going crazy' which COULD just happen...because, when I read the local city rag that says northeastern states are projecting a deficit in spite of the 'bigger-than-expected' tax collection, I want to scream! Higher taxes, yet low employment, and rotten economy...all for what? An oil business mob family makin' hay while the sun shines on Jr's 8 year circus parade of a war of terror!
Pennsylvania added 25,000 jobs in 2007, fewer than half the amount added during each of the three preceding years. Supposedly PA added 3,000 jobs in January...but if this is by companies where I work, there is a very large turnover, as people quit after several months because of the workload. In my company, dozens of people in management found themselves jobless, last year, without a clue that it was coming and even the new CEO has just been released/resigned. It just doesn't look good, and ours was a very successful business before the mob bought their way in to the White House. The Democratic choices make me want to hurl. They only offer more of the same. The Clinton's are...face it, crooks, and Obama although filled with good intentions, will be rendered useless by the powers that be, just like our 'better men' Presidents were, Jimmy Carter and JFK.

I understand with mixed emotions about the 'to vote' or 'not to vote' issue...if I don't exercise my right, I walk away with a feeling of shirking duty. If I vote, then I'm a tax payer enabling the blatant corruption in the government to continue under the disguise of democracy. Maybe that's why the word contains root words similar to demon and mock?


 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 2:46 pm
First of all Mark, I don't live in that town, district, or state you are referring to, the voter fraud is real, but it is not as far spread as you believe it to be. Yes it can control the final result, but the contrast between rigged and non rigged areas raises questions and the people will demand answers, that is far more effective than staying home, but by no means the only thing we can do.

Mark you claim that you are not looking for a following, yet here you are. You are not writing this is your personal diary, or on your bathroom mirror, but here at care2 where you hope others will read it and follow your lead, one step at a time as you said earlier.

Mark, where do you get the idea that continuing to vote means I am not also insisting on honest elections? Before you answer, I can give you a clue. It's an emotional response that stems from associated opposition. You are insisting on honest election, yet I oppose your tactic, therefore under associated opposition, I must also be opposed to honest elections. It's an emotional response Mark. Get over it, we are actually on the same side.

I'm not asking anyone to accept rigged elections, that is just another emotional response that has effected your logic, being opposed to your strategy does not mean I'm opposed to your goals. Fight against the voter fraud for all you are worth, demand exit polls, demand paper trails so we can have recounts if need be, get involved in tabulating the votes if you can, there is more you can do than just refusing to vote. Some of our other options can make a difference. Not voting is nothing more than a silent protest that you may as well be writing on your diary, because nobody else is ever going to know.

The major problem and lack of insight I see with your boycott... Lets just assume you do manage to get others to stop voting, and then that somehow works, and as a result we can have "honest elections". So the election problem is solved, now you need to start all over again and try to get all of the people that stopped voting to now vote again.

You have never explained how not voting is going to fix the problem, you have never explained how you will ever get all of the people to not vote or even if that is the plan, you have also never explained how voting is working against us, rigged in some places or not in others.

It's not a black and white world Mark, we can want the same thing and have different ideas about how to achieve it.

Vote people, it only takes a few minutes, it exposes you to others in your area who are also interested in our nations politics, and even if the elections are rigged, at least they will have to be. If we stay at home and refuse to vote, they don't even have to cheat to beat us.

BTW Mark, I'm voting for Obama again. Maybe we can debate that at another time.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 3:02 pm
Mark google "honest elections". People are working at it, people are aware of the problem. One person did control the vote in that one town, and they voted 10,000 times for awareness. This clear case of fraud has caused a lot of action that will help to deter the problem and create enough scrutiny to hopefully uncover any fraud that takes place.

My car had a flat tire once, but because it was a car and not a horse, I didn't shoot it. Some things can be fixed and are worth it.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 3:41 pm
Mark think about what you are saying here. Be realistic.

"What would happen if tomorrow they didn't get any? And the next day? And when they held an election, nobody voted?"

What if?

Only the people who didn't vote for the candidate that won will believe that their vote didn't count. The fact is, they don't care if you think the vote was rigged, they don't even care if the vote was rigged, they won. It wasn't just corrupt billionaires, real people voted for Bush and will keep voting, rigged or not, even if it is proven to be rigged. For "nobody" to vote, and for the politicians to not get "any" letters, you would need those people who are getting what they want when they write letters, and are voting for the candidate that wins. You will never get them to follow you. In fact all you can reasonably hope for is that everyone else will stop voting and stop writing, and that means that when the next Bush is elected by a landslide, there will be no fraud for you to point at, it will actually be legitimate. Your goal is to have honest election, not give the Bush-bots of the world a landslide victory.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 3:49 pm
James wrote: "First of all Mark, I don't live in that town, district, or state you are referring to, the voter fraud is real, but it is not as far spread as you believe it to be."

That's funny, because I'm on several election integrity mailing lists with activists all over the country, and they haven't yet found a state that doesn't have election fraud.

James: "Yes it can control the final result, but..."

But what, James? But the final results aren't important? But the only thing you consider important is trying to trick people into voting in rigged elections?

James: "...the contrast between rigged and non rigged areas raises questions and the people will demand answers, that is far more effective than staying home, but by no means the only thing we can do."

Well, those of us who have been demanding answers for the past seven years, haven't gotten any. We keep getting called names by political hacks who don't care about democracy and just want a facade of democracy, the appearance of democracy, without the reality. Even John Conyers can't get answers. Even Congress can't get answers -- Mukasey won't prosecute those who refuse subpoenas and are in contempt of Congress. If you'd ever get out of the house, instead of staying home and telling other people what to do, you'd know that.

James: "Mark you claim that you are not looking for a following, yet here you are. You are not writing this is your personal diary, or on your bathroom mirror, but here at care2 where you hope others will read it and follow your lead, one step at a time as you said earlier."

I have the same right to freedom of speech as you do, James. You could have scrawled your misleading talking points and deceptions on your bathroom wall, and then I wouldn't have to defend democracy by refuting them here.

James: "Mark, where do you get the idea that continuing to vote means I am not also insisting on honest elections?"

I will answer that completely and fully in a moment, but since you answered it yourself, let's go on to see what your next Rovian tactic is.

James: "Before you answer, I can give you a clue. It's an emotional response that stems from associated opposition."

Ah yes, the old ad hominem attack. Typical political operative tactics.

James: "You are insisting on honest election, yet I oppose your tactic, therefore under associated opposition, I must also be opposed to honest elections."

James, my insistence on honest elections is not a "tactic" like everything you political operatives say. Honest elections are the sine qua non for democracy. If you don't have honest elections, you don't have democracy. What you are saying that that you MIGHT BE IN FAVOR OF HONEST ELECTIONS IN SOME UNFORESEEABLE FUTURE, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW. You're saying that my insisting on honest elections now is a "tactic" but that your insistence upon voting in, and telling others to vote in dishonest, rigged elections is an unemotional ethical position. But if you don't care about democracy NOW, you don't care about democracy at all. Because you've had seven years of an unelected president in which to figure out how the elections were stolen, why the elections were stolen, and that a country without honest elections is not a democracy. But that's not long enough for you to make up your mind that you'd prefer democracy to tyranny, even if it means rejecting corruption and refusing to go along to get along with crooked politics?

James: "It's an emotional response Mark. Get over it, we are actually on the same side."

No, we're not on the same side, James. I don't tell people, "Well the election was stolen, Bush is president, move along, get over it, go vote in the next rigged election, and the next one, and the next one, and try not to think about things like freedom and democracy because those are EMOTIONAL things that our forefathers gave their lives for, and you just want people to think about practical things like which war profiteer to vote for in the next rigged election.

Jamre: "I'm not asking anyone to accept rigged elections, that is just another emotional response that has effected your logic, being opposed to your strategy does not mean I'm opposed to your goals."

You're lying again, James. You ARE opposed to honest elections now. You don't want people to refuse to vote in rigged elections and to insist upon honest elections now. You want people to give up and submit to rigged elections now, to vote in rigged elections now, and maybe you'd consider deigning to support honest elections some time in the future, if it didn't mean that you have to stop voting in your precious rigged elections.

James:"Fight against the voter fraud for all you are worth, demand exit polls, demand paper trails so we can have recounts if need be, get involved in tabulating the votes if you can, there is more you can do than just refusing to vote. Some of our other options can make a difference."

James, I personally know several of the lawyers who filed the litigation in several election fraud lawsuits in various states, and I'd be happy to put you in touch with them so that they can tell you themselves that it is not going to help. I can put you in touch with doctors, lawyers, professors, computer scientists, and many others who have been fighting the ELECTION FRAUD (not voter fraud, that's a conservative lie, as you pretended you already knew), who have been analyzing the exit polls (often grabbing them before they were "adjusted"), demanding paper ballots, working at the polls and as elections observers, in some cases even getting arrested for demanding their Constitutional right to observe the vote counts, not that vote counts inside a computer are observable, running parallel elections, filing public records requests and going through tons of documents, providing solid documented evidence of election fraud to district attorneys, courts, secretaries of state, and congress members, for seven years now, and have gotten no response.

What you're saying is that it is fine with you if I fight election fraud, as long as I continue to do it in ways that have proven ineffective, but you are emotionally and fiercely opposed to fighting election fraud in any way that might bring about honest elections, such as boycotting rigged elections.

James: "Not voting is nothing more than a silent protest that you may as well be writing on your diary, because nobody else is ever going to know."

No, James, VOTING in rigged elections is the silence of the fleeced lambs who might as well stay home because they already know their votes won't count, but they're too deep into denial, as you are, to fact the truth.

James: "The major problem and lack of insight I see with your boycott... Lets just assume you do manage to get others to stop voting, and then that somehow works, and as a result we can have "honest elections". So the election problem is solved, now you need to start all over again and try to get all of the people that stopped voting to now vote again."

You really don't get it, do you? People who care enough about democracy to refuse to vote in rigged elections, are willing to fight for democracy by insisting on honest elections, and would be overjoyed to vote in honest elections.

James: "You have never explained how not voting is going to fix the problem,..."

You're not reading what I write, James. Not voting is the only proven way of getting rid of the voting machines. It was proven effective in Ireland and no other method has ever succeeded. And the people of Ireland who got rid of the voting machines by refusing to vote on them, happily came out in hordes to vote again once the machines were gone.

James: "...you have never explained how you will ever get all of the people to not vote or even if that is the plan,..."

I don't expect people who are heavily invested in the current corrupt electoral political scheme to stop voting or to stop encouraging others to vote. 50% already don't vote, 20% approve of our current corrupt and unelected government and the corrupt political party machines that put it in place are are determined to keep it there, so I only have to reach the 30% who SAY they want peace and democracy, but think they can get it by voting in rigged elections. And you may be correct -- it might not be possible for people with that sort of illogical thinking to ever wake up. But I try to be optimistic anyway.

James:"...you have also never explained how voting is working against us, rigged in some places or not in others."

There are a few small areas in few states that still have honest elections, but since they constitute fewer than 20% of all votes cast, they have no effect on the presidential outcome whatsoever. Do you not think that stolen elections have happened, or that the consequenses have been dire for this country and for the world?

James: "It's not a black and white world Mark, we can want the same thing and have different ideas about how to achieve it."

Some things really are black and white, James. Here's an example. Imagine that one of our bombs is about to kill an innocent child in Iraq or Afghanistan as collateral damage. That's pretty black and white. The bomb is going to be dropped and the child is going to be killed. Now suppose that you and I both want to stop that child from being killed. And we are both in positions of authority and we can vote on it. So I vote NOT to drop the bomb, even is there is a suspected terrorist or military target nearby, on the grounds that we illegally invaded those countries based on lies and have no business being there in the first place. But YOU vote to drop the bomb, because no matter how we got there, we're there, and there might be military targets or suspected terrorists nearby, so you advocate dropping the bomb now, and working hard to prevent future bombs from being dropped, but NEVER refusing to vote that those bombs be dropped.

James: "Vote people, it only takes a few minutes, it exposes you to others in your area who are also interested in our nations politics, and even if the elections are rigged, at least they will have to be. If we stay at home and refuse to vote, they don't even have to cheat to beat us."

Stop being so emotional and trying to get people to accept you as a leader. Write that in your diary or on your bathroom wall if you aren't trying to tell people to follow you and do as you tell them.

And now to answer your earlier question:

James: "Mark, where do you get the idea that continuing to vote means I am not also insisting on honest elections?"

James, if you continue to vote in crooked elections, don't come to me wondering why you continue to get crooked politicians, okay?

If you continue to buy Ford Pintos, knowing that they can explode easily, it means that you are not INSISTING on vehicle safety. If you continue to open suspicious email and email attachments and visit unknown websites, and do not install a virus protection program on your computer, it means that you are not INSISTING on computer security. If you continue to send money to a phony charity after the FBI has informed you that it is a scam, it means that you are not INSISTING that your donations be used wisely. If you continue to vote in rigged elections, it means that you are not INSISTING on honest elections.

James: "BTW Mark, I'm voting for Obama again. Maybe we can debate that at another time."

Right here, James:

The Obama Craze: Count Me Out

And if you'd like to debate Hillary, McCain, Nader, McKinney, or any of the other candidates willing to run in rigged elections to help the oligarchy maintain the facade of democracy where it no longer exists, I'd be happy to do that also.

 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 3:59 pm

James if 20% of the country really supports Bush and votes Republican, and nobody else votes, they cannot claim a mandate or a fair election. In many countries when it was known that the election was going to be rigged, the opposition called for a boycott so as not to support it. Bush has banned international observers from our elections, but we still have domestic observers. Twenty percent voting and eighty percent not voting, is not a free and fair election. It is when fifty percent vote that the oligarchy can continue to maintain the pretense of democracy, because the spread between those who vote for the oligarchy and those opposed (as if they don't realize that THEIR candidates ALSO represent the oligarchy) is so narrow that it is easy to rig.

If we had honest elections, the 50% who now refuse to vote in rigged elections where none of the candidates represent their interests, would come out and vote and we'd have a democracy. The only thing between us and democracy is people who are willing to vote in rigged elections instead of INSISTING on honest ones. If you submit to tyranny, you'll never get democracy.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 4:49 pm
After several ignorant attacks like this..." But the only thing you consider important is trying to trick people into voting in rigged elections? "
and taking my comments out of context so you can attack them. Mark I have concluded that you are not worth my time. I stated clearly that I understand you have good intentions, yet you continue trying to portray me as having ill intentions. I'm done with you. It's simple to me that your emotions have got the better of you and you are not capable of a rational conversation. Good day.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 5:46 pm

Far from taking your comments out of context, James, I copied your entire post and responded point by point to everything you had written.

In response, you call me ignorant and accuse me of something I clearly had not done. Is that what you call a rational conversation?

You're the one who took my statement out of context. In context, where my question appears is:

James wrote: "First of all Mark, I don't live in that town, district, or state you are referring to, the voter fraud is real, but it is not as far spread as you believe it to be."

That's funny, because I'm on several election integrity mailing lists with activists all over the country, and they haven't yet found a state that doesn't have election fraud.

James: "Yes it can control the final result, but..."

But what, James? But the final results aren't important? But the only thing you consider important is trying to trick people into voting in rigged elections?

AND you'll notice that it was a QUESTION, not an attack. But yes, I'll cop to ignorance since you disdained to answer my question. I'm ignorant of what it is that you consider to be MORE important than the final results of an election. The only thing I could think of was that perhaps you thought that getting people to vote in rigged elections was more important than the results. If that's not true, why not explain what your goal is?

I can make a guess as to what you may THINK your goal is: getting your candidate, in this case Obama, elected. How you expect to do that by getting more people to vote in rigged elections is beyond me. It was possible to prove that those 10,000 phantom votes for Bush in one precinct, and hundreds of thousands of other phantom votes in other precincts, and millions of valid votes Kerry votes that were "lost" or given to Bush or to another candidate constituted fraud, but that proof became available only LONG AFTER Bush had been sworn into office and could not be removed.

So if you're encouraging people to vote in rigged elections so as to provide proof of election rigging, we already have that proof, it does prove that election fraud did occur, but it is totally useless in preventing future election fraud.

If you GIVE your wallet to somebody you KNOW has a long record of criminal convictions for theft, and they ACCEPT your wallet and STEAL your money, you have only yourself to blame. If you cast your vote in elections that have a long, proven history of being rigged, you have only yourself to blame if your vote is stolen.

There's an old saying, James: You can't cheat an honest man. Honest people simply will not have anything to do with corruption. You can't tempt them, bribe them, con them, or entice them. Fifty percent of the voters in the US are honest and will not vote in rigged elections. You may be correct in that the other 50% are dishonest and will continue to vote no matter who warns them or how they are warned. I don't expect EVERYONE to be honest, but I'm still, perhaps foolishly, hoping for a simple majority. ;)

 

Past Member (0)
Sunday March 2, 2008, 6:04 pm

Mel lissa, I apologize for not responding to you sooner.

I wish I had some advice. Maybe the best thing is just to talk to people, although you are welcome to use anything I've written in a letter to the editor or anywhere else, and you do not need to attribute it to me, as I probably got the concepts from somebody else.

A yard sign probably would just get stolen, and might call unwanted attention to you. But most people already know that our elections are rigged, so I think that's what most will tell you if you ask them. And then you can just ask them why they want to vote in rigged elections. They'll probably get angry and call you names, but it is guaranteed to get them thinking, if they're capable of thinking. ;)

As for exercising your right to vote or shirking your duty to vote, you have a right to vote in honest elections and no duty whatsoever to vote in rigged elections. I hear that a lot from people, "My ancestors shed their blood so that I could have the right to vote." And my response is that I don't think that they died so that your vote could be stolen, lost, thrown away, or counted as a vote for a different candidate. Nobody ever fought and died for the right to vote in RIGGED elections.

Democracy is something that many have fought and died for, and it involves, at a very minimum, free, fair, open, honest, and fully transparent elections. Anything less than that being passed off as democracy, is consumer fraud and we have no obligation to buy it.
 

David S (55)
Friday March 14, 2008, 6:18 am
Electoral democracy is an illusion because the choices one votes for are pre-chosen. American democracy is no different than Iran in this. The only difference is that rather than a clergy, Wallstreet selects who may be permitted to run for office. When choices are only offered between people who serve selfish interests, there are no choices possible at all and the word democracy is rendered into a shameful farce.

What some people had honestly thought they had fought, and some had died for, was the idea of a free nation. Their memory and sacrifice has long been put to shame and has been disgraced by the very people that control this process today. Voting in a fraudulent society is giving false legitimacy to deception. I think this is the true meaning of what Mark has said here.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday October 19, 2008, 6:40 pm
The impeachment process is possible and/or can be used for criminal prosecution even after George W. Bush leaves office—giving the American people a sense of hope. Even though impeachment while Bush is in office does not seem likely due to the complicity of Congress relative to the illegitimate Iraq War, Kucinich’s efforts relative to impeachment and the efforts of hundreds of Americans relative to impeachment are not wasteful collectively. For example, such efforts are beneficial in that (1) legitimate accusations made in the course of Bush’s presidency appropriately and importantly inform the American people and the world of Bush’s abuses of power, corruption, and dishonesty; and (2) legitimate accusations, for example, in Dennis Kucinich’s excellent book, “The 35 Articles of Impeachment and the Case for Prosecuting George W. Bush,” may contribute to some impeachment and/or punitive process against Bush after he leaves office.

Dennis Kucinich is my role model. Kucinich is simply the best. Congressman Kucinich has, in any case, done invaluable, noble, and exemplary work in pushing for impeachment so vigorously and single-mindedly.

Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993
 
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