Start A Petition

Are We Good Germans?

Society & Culture  (tags: Frank Rich, torture, Bush, Abu Ghraib, Iraq war, complacency )

- 4235 days ago -
Provocative op-ed piece by Frank Rich in today's NY Times. Ya know, he's got a point here...maybe SEVERAL points!


We hate spam. We do not sell or share the email addresses you provide.


RC deWinter (418)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 3:25 pm
This piece made me examine a lot of things...and one true thing is: we are NOT doing enough to stop our government's wrongs to us and the rest of the world. But do we have the stomach for a TRUE revolution?

Yvonne White (229)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 4:09 pm
They're doing their best to keep us from stopping the insanity! Keep gas high, so we can't drive to the Capitol; keep Media hogtied by the CONservatives, so we can't hear dissent; keep the status quo in Congress, no matter what the People Want; keep outsourcing jobs, to keep us guessing on our jobs; keep stealing our pensions & threatening Social Security to distract us from the War Machine digging us into a massive black hole of dispair!!! Keep the Rich richer & the Poor poorer.. and dismantel the Middle Class altogether.. Bu$h'$ America is a mangled mess..:(

Mara G (411)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 4:29 pm
I think that we have been "very good Germans". SO good that nothing has changed sense the very first pictures from Abu Ghraib when "every" Humanitarian organization atempted to put a stop to it, including the Supreme Court. Nothing fazed Hitler and nothing fazes our President.
An important part of the article:

The Sunday Times of London, America’s “enhanced interrogation” techniques have a grotesque provenance: “Verschärfte Vernehmung, enhanced or intensified interrogation, was the exact term innovated by the Gestapo to describe what became known as the ‘third degree.’ It left no marks. It included hypothermia, stress positions and long-time sleep deprivation.”

Thanks Cate, read and noted.

Blue Bunting (855)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 4:39 pm
STOP THIS: Masters of war plan for next 100 years

Blue Bunting (855)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 4:40 pm
Just in case you think this wasn't PLANNED by Bu$h and his cronie$:

PNAC and the Future of America and the World Established in the spring of 1997 and funded largely by the energy and arms industries, the Project for the New American Century was founded as the neoconservative.Also see the video


Blue Bunting (855)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 4:40 pm
All part of the NeoCON/Bu$h PNAC Plan ...

Just in case some think all Americans are naïve - unaware of the results their actions - read, for example, Ralph Peter's article, Constant Conflict in the 1997 US Army War College Quarterly.

“There will be no peace. At any given moment for the rest of our lifetimes, there will be multiple conflicts in mutating forms around the globe. Violent conflict will dominate the headlines, but cultural and economic struggles will be steadier and ultimately more decisive.

The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those ends, we will do a fair amount of killing.

We are building an information-based military to do that killing. . . . . ”

The pathological problem with the neoconservatives is that they are myopic - unwilling to see, or hear criticism of, what conflicts with their ambition. They do not care how many people are killed. Morality does not exist in their corporate quest.




Bu$h and PNAC = perpetual war and endless $$$ for Bu$h's war toys to line the pockets of his cronies/defense contractors!


. (0)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 4:42 pm
Noted with thanks Cate.

Mara G (411)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 5:10 pm
Thanks Blue, I've been reading all of the articles and predictions from the world class "Think Tanks" who have spent their lifetimes bringing extremely important information to the public, or should I say "trying to". If no one recognizes the pattern by now, then they haven't been paying attention, or out of the loop of information.

Another part of this article:

In April 2004, Stars and Stripes first reported that our troops were using makeshift vehicle armor fashioned out of sandbags, yet when a soldier complained to Donald Rumsfeld at a town meeting in Kuwait eight months later, he was successfully pilloried by the right. Proper armor procurement lagged for months more to come. Not until early this year, four years after the war’s first casualties, did a Washington Post investigation finally focus the country’s attention on the shoddy treatment of veterans, many of them victims of inadequate armor, at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and other military hospitals.

We first learned of the use of contractors as mercenaries when four Blackwater employees were strung up in Falluja in March 2004, just weeks before the first torture photos emerged from Abu Ghraib. We asked few questions. When reports surfaced early this summer that our contractors in Iraq (180,000, of whom some 48,000 are believed to be security personnel) now outnumber our postsurge troop strength, we yawned. Contractor casualties and contractor-inflicted casualties are kept off the books.

It was always the White House’s plan to coax us into a blissful ignorance about the war. Part of this was achieved with the usual Bush-Cheney secretiveness, from the torture memos to the prohibition of photos of military coffins. But the administration also invited our passive complicity by requiring no shared sacrifice. A country that knows there’s no such thing as a free lunch was all too easily persuaded there could be a free war.

Instead of taxing us for Iraq, the White House bought us off with tax cuts. Instead of mobilizing the needed troops, it kept a draft off the table by quietly purchasing its auxiliary army of contractors to finesse the overstretched military’s holes. With the war’s entire weight falling on a small voluntary force, amounting to less than 1 percent of the population, the rest of us were free to look the other way at whatever went down in Iraq.

Mary H (47)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 5:34 pm
Thank you Cate & Blue -- excellent links!

Stephen Hannon (203)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 5:45 pm
There is nothing left to lose to save our good name. Even with a new president, a Congress that is not a rubber stamp, and a Senate with the backbone to end this war ASAP. But will they they? How many have an ivestment in this war? How many have stocks with the big 3 major oil companies who are getting richer by the minute? Of course they don't want to end this war, because if they do oil prices will plummet, and the big 3 will have a heart attack. I can see the suicides now even before they occur when their oil portfolios take a nose dive sometime in the near future.

Unfortunately there are too many Americans who reall don't want to know the truth. It is easier to beleive bush when he says we do not torture, which of course is not true. We have always tortured, but bush pulled us of the Hague, The World Court, and the Kyto Treaty so he can do whatever he wants.

Nuri Al Maliki's government is riddled with corruption. You don't really believe bush would install an honest government in Iraq do you? Bush needs Iraqs corrupt government as much as he needs his own.

I hope November 08 goes off without any glitches in the voting system. The Repbugnants are already in serious trouble for backing bush on his veto for S-CHIP program. He only wants to give the Dems 5 billion, yet he has the nerve to ask for $190 billion for the Iraq war. Pelosi needs to tell bush, sure we'll give you the money, providing you withdraw your veto and allow our children to receive the health care they need. I wonder how bush would like it if he went to a doctor and the doctor told him, "sorry Gerorge, I can't treat you. Your health insurance is inadequate. You will have to use the emergency room." But of course this will not ever happen. Not in my life time. I'm waiting for another miracle of a BURNING BUSH!!!

Jennie B (14)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 5:54 pm
You are right Ron, we have been bought and sold by our own government. This President is running amok and creating disastrous results-dying middle class, dying wildlife, dying environment, dying ethics, dying sense of right and wrong, dying health care and mental health systems, amongest just a few of his "victims" while no one stops him-we keep thinking someone else will do it: Congress, Supreme Ct., Military-somebody but the somebodies have to be US, the people he has so mistreated and betrayed. If we don't act as one in getting rid of him any chance we get-next election since everyone has backed off Impeachment, then we deserve what we get-a continued downward spiral of this country under the suppression and repression of the Repulicons. Noted/Shared.

Tim Redfern (581)
Tuesday October 16, 2007, 6:55 pm
Where are we going,
and why are we in this handbasket?

I've got to disagree with the assertion that
ALL Americans have been "good Germans". There
are those of us who have been doing all we possibly
can to stop this monstrous administration, but the
job is so big, and we have so little power! As my buddy
Ron said, nothing fazed Hitler, and nothing fazes Bush/Cheney.
Now we have to add Congress to that, too. Remember how
jubilant we all were last November? Election night was one
of the happiest nights of MY life, I know that.
"Now the war will end, Now we'll FINALLY get Bushco reigned
in!"....oh, yeah, right! And we used to think that Tony Blair
was Bush's lapdog! Blair had nothing on this Congress, which
just seems to be Bushco's slightly-less evil stepchild.
I know so many people have been calling for revolution,
and Jennie, you've been so rational and level-headed all
along when you've said, "But what then? What do we do when
the revolution is over? What will take it's place?".
I have another suggestion, one on which I would welcome
any and all comments. This is an option which would
never have come to me had I not been living in Tennessee
for the last 12 years.
Why not secession? How about the states leaving
the Union AGAIN, just as they did in 1861? If enough
states were to secede, the United States Federal Govt.
would wither and die of attrition, and the states which
seceded could then form their own central government,
and only if they chose to do so.
I've recently made some changes to the billboard on
my profile page. One of the new additions is a small
image of an assortment of Confederate flags, and a picture
of Robert E. Lee. Atop those is a comment, "The time to secede
has come again." I put that on my page knowing full-well
that my friends and strangers would see it and think,
"Oh my God, Tim Redfern is a racist! He wants to put the
blacks into slavery again!". Someone is likely to flag
my page for inappropriate content by making a false
assumption. My opinion that the states should secede
is purely political, and has not a damn thing to do
with slavery, okay? It merely reflects a desire to
divorce ourselves of a Federal Government which is
eventually going to kill us ALL if it keeps going
hell-bent for leather, unchecked, as it has been.
Of course, secession is not going to happen, so
all I can say is God save us all.

Thanks, Cate.

Elainna Crowell (174)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 12:03 am
Excellent article, excellent links, Thanks Cate. I find it almost impossible to believe that both the executive and the legislative branches of the US government would so completely screw up their responsibilities.

Mara G (411)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 12:51 am
Hi Tim, I didn't use the word "all"...ha ha! But yes, of course there is "us" and many others and the numbers are growing, BUT we must all admit that for the past 6 years America has been asleep and its only through people like us on care2 that have gotten the word out about the truth. I use assertions like "we have been good Germans" to wake people up, or soon we will be looking like 1944 Germany, and possibly sooner than we think. If you look at history, regime take over and martial law happened very quickly because it doesn't give people time to react. It blindsides the public and catches them off guard. This is certainly not a time for any of us to relax and just wait for the 2008 election. On the contrary, it is time to push "until" the election.

Tim Redfern (581)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 2:07 am
Agreed, Ron, and I didn't mean to cast any aspersions
on you, my friend. I think I saw in the article accompanying
this story where the columnist said "ALL Americans" was not
a reference to you!
As to your post above, I agree 100% with what you've said.
Let's also remember the infamous quote from Adolf Hitler,
who once said,
"What good fortune for governments that people do not think."
That, I feel, very well describes the majority of Americans
these days. Most people are so wrapped up in their own tightly
ordered little lives that they can't be bothered with what their
government is doing to them. Where I'm living now, Greene County
Tennessee (and soon to be leaving, praise be to God), the attitude
of most people is, that if there's beer in the 'fridge and NASCAR's
going to be on TV this weekend, nothing else matters.
So, when Bushco slams the lid down on us all for the last time
(martial law), it's going to come as a bolt out of the blue for them,
and they'll be wondering "How the hell did THIS happen?!", and they'll
have no idea that it's all been in the planning stages for decades.
We're going to see alot of suicides when this happens, alot of heart attacks and strokes, and the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew chapter 24
will come true: "men's hearts failing them for fear."

Tsandi Crew (95)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 7:15 am
No, Cate....we have not become angry enough.

Judy Cross (83)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 12:58 pm
I left the US in 1968 because coming from NYC. I knew the fix was in. Don't beat yourselves up...organize your neighbors. Stop talking to each other in the virtual world and do something real.

You've been dumbed down, poisoned, badly educated and as the books written on the subject say, amused to death.

As Gore Vidal, the Saint's cousin pointed out, there is one party in America, the Money party, and it has two right wings, the Democrats and the Republicans.

Stop living in a virtual community and talk to your neighbors.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 1:52 pm
As I keep saying: DO buy & read & SHARE WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS, this book;
Naomi Klein's
The End of America;
Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot;
A Citizen's Call to Action.

I went to hear Naomi Klein speak on the University of Washington campus. A dynamic and INSPIRING speaker.

On page 153, "The Patriot's Task":
"So it turns out we really are at war -- a long war, a global war, a war for our civilization." [NB: NOT the war that Bushco is describing!]
"It is a war to save our democracy.
Each one of us needs to enlist. We have no one to spare."

Naomi Wolf & friends have started an "American Freedom Campaign" to restore Constitutional rights.
Brilliantly, they have ONE branch for Liberals, and ONE branch for the REAL Conservatives, those who want to preserve the Constitution! Recognizing that the 2 sides won't get together, but DO have a common aim!

You can google this. Also, DO google Naomi Wolf and get and download, from the book, the "Ten Steps Towards Fascism" .{That I have already sent out to my Friends list -- and may send again & again!}

Naomi Wolf cites in her Bibliography to her book,
Frank Rich: "The Greatest Story Ever Sold: the Decline & Fall of Truth from 9/11 to Katrina". New York, The Penguin Press, 2006.

The American Freedom Campaign can be a STARTING POINT FOR ALL OUR RESISTANCE.
One of the things being proposed, is a General Strike starting on Election Day November 6. {I don't know a lot about this yet. This can also be looked up on the Internet.}

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 2:08 pm
'Our moral trajectory over the Bush years could not be better dramatized than it was by a reunion of an elite group of two dozen World War II veterans in Washington this month. They were participants in a top-secret operation to interrogate some 4,000 Nazi prisoners of war. Until now, they have kept silent, but America’s recent record prompted them to talk to The Washington Post.

“We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm, 90, an M.I.T. physicist whose interrogation of Rudolf Hess, Hitler’s deputy, took place over a chessboard. George Frenkel, 87, recalled that he “never laid hands on anyone” in his many interrogations, adding, “I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”

Our humanity has been compromised by those who use Gestapo tactics in our war. The longer we stand idly by while they do so, the more we resemble those “good Germans” who professed ignorance of their own Gestapo. It’s up to us to wake up our somnambulant Congress to challenge administration policy every day. Let the war’s last supporters filibuster all night if they want to. There is nothing left to lose except whatever remains of our country’s good name.'

The torture of the Bush mis-Administration, is NOT, repeat, NOT, designed to "extract information". It is aimed at US; to intimidate US. WE DISSENTERS AND REBELS KNOW IN OUR HEART-OF-HEARTS, SUBCONSCIOUSLY MAYBE, THAT WE COULD BECOME THE TORTURE VICTIMS TOO.



Marina L (137)
Wednesday October 17, 2007, 2:16 pm
Noted.... I only wish I could note this a million times.

Wednesday October 17, 2007, 10:04 pm
Speechless....... Noted !

nurith k (93)
Thursday October 18, 2007, 7:47 am
lets say it that way, bush doesn't go and tortures himself, he orders other americans to torture, i suppose this is what he means.i think he will just change his position in one case: that the american people order other americans to torture the american goverment, but i don't think this will happen, because there are just a few humans ready to torture anybody, and these people must be really sick in the brain, like bushco for instance!!!

Tim Redfern (581)
Thursday October 18, 2007, 5:45 pm
Please don't feed the troll.
Everyone just relax.
This is his/her/it's
third incarnation at C2.
Five bucks says the troll
is gone in 36 hours, max.

Tim Redfern (581)
Thursday October 18, 2007, 5:55 pm
It can constitute a computer crime. For example, in the United States it is a federal crime to anonymously "annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person" via the internet or telecommunication system, punishable by a fine and/or up to two years imprisonment.[1]


Tim Redfern (581)
Thursday October 18, 2007, 5:57 pm
Cyberbullying is willful and involves recurring or repeated harm inflicted through the medium of electronic text. According to R.B. Standler[2]bullying intends to cause emotional distress and has no legitimate purpose to the choice of communications. Cyberbullying can be as simple as continuing to send e-mail to someone who has said they want no further contact with the sender. Cyberbullying may also include threats, sexual remarks, pejorative labels (i.e., hate speech). Cyber-bullies may publish personal contact information for their victims at websites. They may attempt to assume the identity of a victim for the purpose of publishing material in their name that defames or ridicules them.Bold text[[


Tim Redfern (581)
Thursday October 18, 2007, 5:58 pm
Just because you have one doesn't
mean you have to act like one.

Linda H (199)
Friday October 19, 2007, 10:52 pm
Noted Thank again Cate!
Or, log in with your
Facebook account:
Please add your comment: (plain text only please. Allowable HTML: <a>)

Track Comments: Notify me with a personal message when other people comment on this story

Loading Noted By...Please Wait


butterfly credits on the news network

  • credits for vetting a newly submitted story
  • credits for vetting any other story
  • credits for leaving a comment
learn more

Most Active Today in Society & Culture

Content and comments expressed here are the opinions of Care2 users and not necessarily that of or its affiliates.

New to Care2? Start Here.