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Standing Your Ground

Society & Culture  (tags: justice, manipulation, media, violence, Trayvon_Martin )

- 2041 days ago -
"One thing that bothers me about the so called "stand your ground" laws, the only person who really has the right to stand his ground is the guy with the gun. Whether he's right in his perception that you are dangerous or not . . ."


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Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 5:41 am

This makes so much sense! (I love this writer.)


divergent r (309)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:04 am
I would say that there are ways to disarm people through knowledge of martial arts
I walk right into my own hypocrisy,since I believe violence solves nothing,even violence
but,I would take self defense classes making a gun not the last word
before buying a gun

Jennifer Brown (8)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:07 am
Thank you for sharing this story.

Lady Flo (101)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:12 am
Thank you Carole,I am not american,may I ask you how is going for those who wont or not have a guns...and the victims..who cares?

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:14 am
One would think that if the person was standing their ground with a weapon, an unarmed person would run or do anything possible to avoid being attacked by the person with the "upper hand". Looking at a map showing the 26 states that have this law it appears that most if not all are in the hands of Republicons.

Fiona Ogilvie (562)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:14 am
Exactly right, Carole, the guy with the gun is the only person with the right to stand "his/her" ground.

There was such an event in Arizona, with no racial overtones. The only witness alive after the shooting was of course the shooter. He claimed he was terrified and stood his ground. The dutiful deputies of the infamous Sheriff Joe of Mariacopa County, Arizona, concluded their investigation to their complete satisfaction by talking to the only witness.

Murder is now "legal" for people with any degree of paranoia living in the violent atmosphere of overcrowded urban Arizona.....which could include most anyone living there including me. I had to listen to gunfire and sirens all night most nights, Central American gangs against Mexican gangs usually.

Now, I am back in Vermont and very worried about the collapse of civilized behavior in some parts of the United States.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:17 am

IMO, the closing paragraph of this article is the most thought-provoking . . .

"So, as we approach an era where white Americans are likely to find themselves just another minority in a country many whites had assumed was “theirs”, it seems to me we face the same choice we’ve always faced – stand our ground against false enemies while the real enemies keep us divided by playing to our ugliest fears, or once again ask ourselves the age-old question, “Who is my neighbor?” If we’re really honest with ourselves, we might find out that we’ve been standing our ground against the wrong people."

Americans (or, for that matter, all citizens of any country) need to be aware of the possible/probable manipulation by media and/or government/corporate interests. While we are so busy disliking each other, we are distracted from the real threats to our freedoms.

Naoko i (257)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:17 am
Seems every bit right to me.

Arielle S (313)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:26 am
It's all about FEAR. Instead of facing their fears, people buy guns and think that will solve everything. Unfortunately, violence begets violence and does not one thing for the fear.

Sam H (410)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:39 am
I guess standing your ground with your fist is illegal, you need a gun to make it legal!

Ben O (135)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:42 am
Thanks Carole, You're absolutely right; -This makes so much sense!

Pamylle G (461)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 7:28 am
Guns for mentally well-adjusted law enforcement officers & civilians defending their homes only - that's sane. "Stand Your Ground" is truly dangerous.

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 7:55 am
Within article:

“Who is my neighbor?” If we’re really honest with ourselves, we might find out that we’ve been standing our ground against the wrong people."

My comment:

Look behind the curtain, the smoke and mirrors......While a few clamor to keep their guns, their rights to their guns, they look from eyes of mouse not eyes of eagles. They see only what is in front of them, not taking in the complete view the full picture.

"The American Indian is of the soil, whether it be the region of forests, plains, pueblos, or mesas. He fits into the landscape, for the hand that fashioned the continent also fashioned the man for his surroundings. He once grew as naturally as the wild sunflowers, he belongs just as the buffalo belonged...."Luther Standing Bear

Now the landscape is to be destroyed and do whatever one wants with it, without regard to anyone or any other being nearby or afar. We don't own Mother Earth, the Earth owns us, and we are paying dearly for a toxic environment that has been created. When you need to always "fear" you live in a Toxic state of Being.

"The old Lakota was wise. He knew that man's heart away from nature becomes hard; he knew that lack of respect for growing, living things soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."- Luther Standing Bear

"Out of the Indian approach to life there came a great freedom, an intense and absorbing respect for life, enriching faith in a Supreme Power, and principles of truth, honesty, generosity, equity, and brotherhood as a guide to mundane relations." Luther Standing Bear Oglala Sioux

Is easy to shoot when there is no respect taking place at any level.

"Protect your Spirit, it is all you truly have." John Trudell

When you protect your Spirit and begin to Think from the Heart you will know what to do and how to Be.

"Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind. Did you think the Creator would create unnecessary people in a time of such terrible danger? Know that you yourself are essential to this World."
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
19th Generation Keeper of the
Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe

I Am No Longer Accepting The Things I Can Not Change
I Am Changing The Things I Can Not Accept
Idle No More

Your Mind has been Mined!

Your Mind had to be Mined in other for You to go along with all of this mining.
Let The Spirit Live

Be the Change You Want to see.....


* or woman

Mitakuye Oyasin


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:03 am

Very well said, Sheryl!


Gene J (290)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:11 am
"We’ve already heard a whole bunch of crazy crackers beginning to yell that, “Those damn minorities/immigrants/others are stealing OUR country right out from under us. Even though – lets be honest here – we crazy crackers stole it from the American Indians and the Spanish who were already here when we came."

I've noted that fact several times here of late. And that by 2043 whites will no longer be a majority in this country, also that the percentage of white voters voting republican has been in free fall for nearly 20 years declining up to 2% in each election. Further, of the children in this country 5 and under, more than half are not white. What I also note is that the first states to lose their white majorities will be Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. I can't wait. I read one article that stated "if" (still in denial) this happens, this will no longer be America. But I feel differently, I think WHEN this happens, we will truly be America for the first time. Our great melting pot will have succeeded. We will no longer be a nation of one color, but many, and all beautiful. And each of those will have been born and raised in this country and be fully assimilated with American values and dreams and deeply in love with freedom. I think that a good thing, not to be feared but celebrated and anticipated. That those of us who speak violently, who are unrepentant racists, who are unwilling to share this wonderful country with any but those who look like them are unhappy, well, that doesn't bother me. I have hope they even they, or their children, will come to appreciate the idea of America as a bright beacon of freedom shining not just as a white light, but a true rainbow of colors. Then, perhaps, we can influence in a positive way the world, without hypocrisy.

JL A (281)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:14 am
Equality under the law indeed ends when financial ability to buy and own something is required to benefit from a law. Persons with disabilities that cannot shoot a gun cannot be given equal access to this law any way you cut it.
Divide and conquer has been a strategy of power and war throughout history.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:15 am

Kudos to you for those words of peace and wisdom, Gene!!!


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:16 am

Got that right, Judi!


JL A (281)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:18 am
One note for Gene--CA already doesn't have a white majority so it was the first and we are doing fine nonetheless--not something to be feared.

Gene J (290)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:21 am
One more thing. My state does have a stand your ground look alike law but it is essentially restricted to a place you can expect to be completely safe, your home. And even then, you must be afraid of imminent mortal danger - meaning if someone is armed with a broom stick, you are not allowed to shoot that person even if he/she has broken into your home. Our most ugly case stems from a deranged (my estimation) man living alone whose house had been broken into several times who armed himself and when two teens, a boy and a girl, again attempted to break into his home, the first one in was the boy, he ambushed him coming down the stairs into the basement, fired a kill shot after he dragged him out of sight, then lay in wait for the girl, shot her, dragged her off too and then delivered another kill shot. That is NOT stand your ground. There were other options, non lethal options, you can read the story here. Byron Smith. He has been indicted for first degree murder. And should be convicted in my opinion.

Patricia C (825)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:25 am
Wonderful article Carole! Loved your comments Gene!

Gene J (290)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:48 am
Lol, Jl. Well that is good news. Still no non whites in the Senate or Governorship though right? I have a friend in Tustin who was a state employee , now retired, and not a fan of the Arnold. :^). Another thought occurred to me, for our white evangelical friends, this was all foretold in the bible. Joseph and his coat of many colors. :^). Think they'll buy it? Not that it matters, the world envisioned by Robert Heinlein and Isaac Asimov is coming faster than I expected, though we have a long way to go, we are on the path.

Sam H (410)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 8:58 am
I don’t think color or ethnicity has anything to do with decency. Jindal of Louisiana is a living proof of that.

Caitlin M (104)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 10:32 am
I just typed an extensive note that just disappeared into the blue haze of computerville. So, I'll just say, right on!

Henriette Matthijssen (154)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 11:07 am
This says it all: it seems to me we face the same choice we’ve always faced – stand our ground against false enemies while the real enemies keep us divided by playing to our ugliest fears, or once again ask ourselves the age-old question, “Who is my neighbor?” If we’re really honest with ourselves, we might find out that we’ve been standing our ground against the wrong people. Thanks Carole. An article that may interest some of you! How To Deprogram Yourself

Constance F (418)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 11:49 am
what a great read, and great comments. I don't have any thing to add here, but wanted to say thank you for posting ~ and ditto Henriette, Ariellle ~ the crux is fear ~ and fuelling that fear as a means to control the mass. My friend used to tell me the scariest people were frightened people, and people who thought they were right without a shadow of a doubt. I think he is right.

Angelika R (143)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 11:56 am
Great article, he pointed it all out,-this law is useless, there's not a single argument for it. And as Carole already stated, yep, the end says it: stand your ground against Washington ! The real place of danger.

Pat B (356)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 12:03 pm
Good article, Carole, and great comments. Violence begets more violence, we sure don't need that. IMHO.
In the article: Study by two University of Georgia professors: In part: " Taken together, our findings raise serious doubts against the argument that Stand Your Ground laws make America safer. So true, so true. Also, a few days ago, Attorney General Eric Holder criticized stand-your-ground laws, saying they "senselessly expand the concept of self-defense and sow dangerous conflict in our neighborhoods." (After the verdict came in). Thank you, Carole for this, passing on to others.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 12:07 pm

(Not to get mushy here . . . but)

I am so proud of the people, here at Care2, who I've met and who congregate to foment critical, peaceful thinking.

Thanks for your support, my friends.


Roger Skinner (14)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 12:35 pm
"One thing that bothers me about the so called “stand your ground” laws, the only person who really has the right to stand his ground is the guy with the gun."

And, if there are no witnesses, the person with the gun is the only able to tell their story as the other person is dead. Self-defense laws used to be sufficient, but these new “stand your ground” laws have turned self-defense into a license to kill. Why has it become better to to “stand your ground” and kill someone than to retreat?

The right-wingers love to tell us that this country was based on "Christian Principles" and they want to have the "Ten Commandments" posted everywhere. Yet, somehow, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" gets ignored as if was only a suggestion.

JL A (281)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 12:35 pm
CA crossed that in the Legislature and Congress long ago Gene. Willie Brown was leader in the Assembly for many years before term limits (and was serving by the late 1960's)

In recent years, Deukmajian as Governor with being Armenian was seen as a remarkable event (late 1980's before Pete Wilson--he was a former AG and Kamala Harris as current AG is a non-white woman).

Racial/Ethnic Composition of California & U.S. Legislative Bodies
as of December 1998, as compared to the 1990 Census figures
(new California legislature, old Congress)

White Black Amer. Ind. Asian Hisp. Total Assembly % Census %
Male 42 4 0 2 11 59 74.7 50.1
Female 14 0 0 0 6 20 25.3 49.9
Total 56 4 0 2 17 79** 100.0 100.0
Assembly % 70.9 5.1 0.0 2.5 21.5 100.0
Census % 57.2 7.2 0.7 9.4 25.3 99.8
(0.2% "other")

** 1 vacancy; % computed based on 79, not 80.

Compared to previous Assembly:

Loss of 1 hispanic female, gain of 1 white female
Loss of 5 white males, gain of 4 hispanic males

White Black Amer. Ind. Asian Hisp. Total Senate % Census %
Male 26 1 0 0 3 30 75.0 50.1
Female 5 1 0 0 4 10 25.0 49.9
Total 31 2 0 0 7 40 100.0 100.0
Senate % 75.5 5.0 0.0 0.0 17.5 100.0
Census % 57.2 7.2 0.7 9.4 25.3 99.8
(0.2% "other")

Compared to previous Senate:

Loss of 1 black female, gain of 2 white and 3 hispanic females
Loss of 4 white males, gain of 1 black male

California Congressional Delegation (105th figures)
White Black Amer. Ind. Asian Hisp. Total Delegation % Census %
Male 33 1 0 2 3 39 75.0 50.1
Female 8 3 0 0 2 13 25.0 49.9
Total 41 4 0 2 5 52 100.0 100.0
Delegation % 78.8 7.7 0.0 3.8 9.6 100.0
Census % 57.2 7.2 0.7 9.4 25.3 99.8
(0.2% "other")


Deb E (63)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 12:45 pm
I watched the movie 42 last night about Jackie Robinson. A line in the movie struck a chord. It was, "when a white man stands his ground he is brave. When a black man stands his ground he is unruly" It was said by the man who brought Robinson to the Brooklyn Dodgers. He was very much against racism. That was in 1945 and here we are, still talking the same way. People have a right to stand their ground if they are being pursued or attacked. No matter what color. We all need to look deep at what it is that truly is keeping us from realizing that we all want the same thing in this life. Love and acceptance. And color of skin is not what is keeping us from having that. This was a great read. Thanks Carole. If there are typos, sorry. Typing on a little keyboard on the phone cause my modem died.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 12:49 pm

Bless your heart, Deb!


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 1:04 pm

Yvonne White (229)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 4:46 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Just because you have done so within the last day.

MmAway M (519)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 4:47 pm
Just "C" thanks Noted! Sheryl can't star you!

Evelyn Z (300)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 6:35 pm
Great read Carole, Thanks

Shawna S (45)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 10:07 pm
Thanks Carole for the post :")

"Your country" is what you make it. Prejudice is rampant in today's society. I was never brought up to look at the black/white (and whatever color) issues that today's society deems issues. Accept people for who they are not the color of their skin or their background. We worry too much about other people and not enough about our own. We govern our own beliefs and morals.
The "stand your ground" law is not here in Canada. But I sympathize with those facing this law.

Minorities are all of us. Do you look at your neighbor (the Chinese, Mexican, African American, Native etc...) as a minority? Or do you see them as your neighbor?
My family is quite diverse. We are from different countries. But we accept our neighbor as we accept our family.

IMO...never judge a book by it's cover. A great read may be inside.

Sheila D (194)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 11:13 pm
Seems to me that if you want to stand your ground against the real bad guys, you must first move out of your own way. Thank You for his thought-provoking article. Enjoyed it and the comments.

Michael Carney (217)
Sunday July 21, 2013, 11:28 pm
Thanks for the post Carole...I think this law, is just giving some people a license to kill...Uh- Oh! Here comes a guy walking down the Street, I don't like his looks he scares me, and he looks like he's going to rob me, so I'll pull my gun and shoot him, he was going to rob me, I know it...It can be that simple...

Hartson Doak (39)
Monday July 22, 2013, 12:27 am
My WASB sister in law married an AfricanAmerican. My brother married a Filipino. Both my sons are married to Chinese. Do these , I assume, Christian, stand your ground, people, think that their God made a mistake in making all His creation in His image? No matter what our color is on the outside. We are all the same on the inside, where it is supposed to be what matters.

Giana P (398)
Monday July 22, 2013, 2:28 am
We live in fear and therefore create barriers between ourselves and our neighbors. No communication and empathy leads to violence. Fear causes a very quick trigger finger...

Emma S (239)
Monday July 22, 2013, 2:45 am
Eloquent - and true. Thank you, Carole.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 22, 2013, 4:40 am
Another Care2 petition:

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday July 22, 2013, 5:04 am
I enjoyed both the story and the valuable comments. Thanks Carole.

Sheryl G (359)
Monday July 22, 2013, 5:11 am
Nicely written C2 Petition Carole placed on the thread.

for signing:

Mike M (40)
Monday July 22, 2013, 5:27 am
Fear, greed and power are what drives this type of law and those who stand behind it

Nancy C (806)
Monday July 22, 2013, 8:14 am
From Wikipedia:
ALEC currently has more than 2,000 legislative members representing all 50 states, amounting to nearly one-third of all sitting legislators,[11] as well as more than 85 members of Congress and 14 sitting or former governors who are considered "alumni". The vast majority of ALEC's legislative members belong to the Republican Party.[10] ALEC also claims approximately 300 corporate, foundation, and other private-sector members. The chairmanship of ALEC is a rotating position, with a new legislator appointed to the position each year. The current chair of ALEC is John Piscopo, a member of the Connecticut House of Representatives
As we all know, the force and power behind this law and many others come from the ALEC supporters and members. Until we bring ALEC down, we'll be cowering to Citizens United/ALEC influenced legislation. In safety and education alone, we're in for constant battle. Much of the work of ALEC is clandestine and unknown to the little guy til the damage is done. Please register and vote. Our choices at the state, local and federal level all ALL crucial.
I'm spoiled after living in Manhattan for 25 years. My neighbors, friends and coworkers were folks from every race, creed and color. Perhaps that experience "deprogrammed" (mentioned by Henriette) me and although I live in a large suburb, I haven't had quite the same feeling of total acceptance in the air. Is it just me or is anti-semitism and bias getting worse before it hopefully eases??? Hatred needs to be taught, but on the same hand perhaps acceptance needs a push too...
My thoughts may seem like a tangent. But my heart knows that stand your ground (voting laws, minimum wage laws, immigration laws) is in the present atmosphere influenced and related to the fear of a beautiful melting pot (as so well discussed by Gene). Shawna says it well too. I cannot remember growing up and hearing of the prejudice that envelopes us today. We are all minorities. And how great is that!!!
Don't forget to register, NJ we go in August too...


Kit B (276)
Monday July 22, 2013, 9:15 am

I spend my weekend wrapping my arms around my darling grandson and didn't even turn on the computer.

There is one part of this that should be talked about, loudly. White Americans didn't just wake one morning and find that if you are white you better hang on to your gun. The NRA has been feeding these fears of white verses the other for years. ALEC which is deeply involved with the NRA wrote those Castle laws and continues the race baiting, fear producing attitudes.

Trayvon Martin is just one in a long line of young black men murdered by crackers that can hide their own bigotry behind a shield of 'fear for life'.

Take our country back to where and when? How to do we go back to a time that didn't exist?

Well written thoughts by The Conflicted Doomer, - thanks for sharing this.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday July 22, 2013, 9:25 am

"Take our country back to where and when?" You are so right, Miss Kitty.

For years, I have seen many groups of people (most with widely differing opinions and proposed solutions) saying "Take America Back!" The problem lies in the definitions of "when?" and next "why then?"

Missed you; but am glad you spent your time away creating wonderful memories!


Kit B (276)
Monday July 22, 2013, 10:58 am

Thank you. Carole.

Often the comment is about the 1950's and how that was a perfect time in the United States. If people complain about income tax now, they would be gnashing their teeth over the rates then. The top bracket was 91% of earned income. We did build many things, some of those things are waiting to be rebuilt and are falling apart. The country was highly segregated, which was not productive nor honest for anyone.

There was an endemic fear that integration would lead to a catastrophic decline of American moral values, and of course inter racial marriage were illegal. Not a time I consider with fondness.

Ben O (135)
Monday July 22, 2013, 11:11 am
I signed the Care2 petition, Carole. And, a few more:

Nancy C (806)
Monday July 22, 2013, 1:05 pm
I graduated high school in 1973 Kit. When I read your description of the 50's, it just amazes me as to how , in the late 60's into 70's, everyday "little people's" lives seemed more accepting of everyone. Our dominating powers keep us fearful and segregated. They create disturbances and have perpetuated them across the world. Here's hoping our global connections create compassion and courage to fight injustice and greed.
Will see what I've missed in that petition page Ben.

Phyllis P (232)
Tuesday July 23, 2013, 10:41 am
There are plenty of injustices in this world. PLENTY. That's why most of us are here. But if any one wants me to apologize for being white and for the mistakes people of my race make, I refuse. I AM SO SICK OF COLOR, RACE, MINORITY being the only thing we can focus on. Yes there is a lot of prejudice and stereotyping, is it fair? No. I truly believe that white on white crime is just as prevalent as black on black. But I could care less what color you are. If you threaten me, my children or my grandchildren, I will certainly "stand my ground", and f.... you up, if I have the strength. The only minority is feel sorry for is the Native Americans. They have been screwed since day one. Do you hear them complain and tell the government what they are entitled to everyday? Do they mooch and drain a system? I think not. We should be able to protect ourselves, against any threat. If other people read obscure messages into that statement, I can't help that.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday July 23, 2013, 2:00 pm
Just received this totally on-point graphic today and want to share it:
The One Simple Graphic that Sums Up the Whole Problem with the Trayvon Martin Case

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday July 23, 2013, 6:38 pm
Good find Carole.

Bottom line, a child, and at 17 he was a child, was walking. He should still be alive. The adult, the one with the gun, should of remained in his car, none of this would of happened.

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Tuesday July 23, 2013, 8:24 pm
Stand your ground only works if you have the money & politics to back you up.

Trayvon went to get candy and tea, walking in the rain with a hoodie (I own several colored ones) talking on his cell phone. He we NOT trespassing nor bothering anybody. This kid is dead and shouldn't be. Instead of race,, what I witnessed was a lot of politics going on. zimmerman HAS been arrested for beating up a woman. (makes him a thug & a coward) Hitting a cop (makes him stupid & privileged) if that was you or be we would still be in jail. He claims he bought the gun to shoot dogs (puts him on my shit list) sociopaths harm innocent animals. And now a cousin says he molested her. The idiot is a sociopath

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 5:26 am
Indeed Kathy, a sociopath that was given back his gun and is back on the streets. As he only lives 15 miles from me I hope to never run into him nor my children or grandchild.

Nicely stated Ros G.

Phyllis P (232)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 9:49 am
Ros G., you are right. I believe there was more to the Martin/Zimmerman story than people are willing to acknowledge. My opinion, right or wrong, but I am not the only one with that opinion. I refuse to take something and call it a race issue, just because. Again, that is because I feel there is more to the story. But who wants to hear about that right. Thanks for your respectful comment.

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 4:30 pm
Phyllis P.

Whether you intended it that way or not, your statement sounded vicious. Your own prescribed remedy seems to suggest that had Trayvon had a gun he would have been able to stand his ground and shoot Zimmerman--hardly a prescription for promoting peace in any community. Moreover why does anyone have to have a gun to be able to stand his or her ground? You should be able to stand your ground without the need to resort to guns, and if need be, our God-given fists are more appropriate than any man-made implement designed for the sole purpose of causing harm!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 4:57 pm

OK, I'm going to confront this discussion with flagrance.

Sam, yes, I understand your point . . . but NO, Phyllis, I do NOT understand yours.

I have a bi-racial daughter -- who is ADAMANTLY black.

(In a racial world, that's what matters, you are either black or white.)

I don't agree that anyone must choose a side -- but I have enough sense to know that, in this real world, it is a reality. Your denial of the fact that it matters denies the reality that -- to many -- IT DOES.

We do NOT live in a "Wizard of Oz" existence, where Dorothy can click her heels twice and return to Kansas!

We live in a real world where much hate really still exists . . . and the danger of a 17-year-old (who may, actually think he's free) can be MURDERED because a pre-disposed, and judgmental racist saw him as a threat), but in reality, was just being a teen-ager, walking through his complex, and, like a self-involved teen, speaking on his cell phone, but just wanting a lemonade and a bag of Skittles.

Your point,

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 5:01 pm
And one more thing,Phyllis P.

You seem to define how a wronged minority should behave! “Do you hear them complain and tell the government what they are entitled to everyday?” Ranking how badly one minority was wronged compared to another is one thing, but sympathizing with one set of victims while ignoring the hurt felt by another is nothing short of being prejudiced. For in the words of somebody who you’re probably sick and tired of hearing his quotes day in and day out, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 5:04 pm
And Just Carole, I'm Just Glad you do! *wink*

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 5:04 pm

I AM a Native American (the granddaughter of a chief) . . . but I do NOT place my ancestors' wrongs above any other minority's.

Any injustice to any ONE is an injustice to all!


Kathy Chadwell (354)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 9:55 pm
Marissa Alexander has medical records showing her coward of a husband is a woman beater.

She didn't kill anybody and had every right to fear for her life. Double standards. She got 20 years.

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 24, 2013, 11:45 pm
Sorry about those experiences, Ros. I once had a professor who was Indian and Catholic. He told me he decided to immigrate to the US because of all the discrimination he faced as a Catholic in India. Once he got to the US, they discriminated against him because he was Indian. The sad thing is that the discrimination he felt here was directed at him by the administration of a Jesuit school where he felt he belonged. No amount of sunscreen protection would have saved him from that!

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 8:13 am
I agree there are some things we will never know the truth about. Like koch brothers :) My bad

I guess they are denying they funded any part of zimmerman's defense and really are ticked that ANY OF US WOULD THINK THAT. I have been boycotting them for ages now because of who they are and what they stand for. And now I'm supposed to trust them. Yeah right

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 8:25 am
Thanks Kathy. Never heard about Koch's possible role in this case!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 8:38 am

I don't really fault anyone here who wants to dismiss the racial probability of this incident. Granted, there have been several times that I felt the "race card" was used/abused without merit.

HOWEVER, anyone who has been close to (or is) a minority, becomes aware, at a very early age, of "racial profiling."

Ask any Afro-American, and they will confirm that they have frequently been "followed" by suspiciously over-helpful store clerks. (They knew it was because they would be suspected of being a shop-lifter.)

And, trust me, I'm sure Trayvon became very threatened as he was STALKED by Zimmerman (although Mr. Zimmerman was advised to "stand down"). He'd probably experienced several personal reminders of the existence of assumed guilt by those who would likely say "Who me?" and deny any prejudice.

We have not come full circle just because of the early 60's. There are many who still, to this day, despicably reject the equality of those they consider to be "minorities." The laws are STILL unevenly applied. (And a personal thank you to Kathy for pointing out the Marissa Alexander case . . . an example of gender/race bias.)


Kathy Chadwell (354)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 9:11 am
Carole I agree with you 200%
The hatred is there and should NOT be. How do we teach children from a young age to respect all God's animals when mankind can not even respect one another. I see people for their compassion & empathy. Sadly I have read some very ugly things on facebook about this. Which being not just aniaml rights activist but activist,,, I educated myself about the case. And I stand with the poor Martin family. And as you know,,, I don't usually post links about things that have not been proven. But since koch brothers are the ones behind the stand your ground bs law,,, WHY NOT SHARE IT. It is probably true :)

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 10:53 am
If anyone wants to fully understand what Carole is speaking about and how that came to be, there is an excellent video entitled The House I Live In. I really suggest that everyone take some time to view it, you will see how we all are manipulated into acting the way we do, that this has been a "planned" societal outcome. I will leave a link for this, a small fee to view, it is being offered on Netflix so if you are already paying for the service or ask your local library if they carry the film.

As explained in the film, the Koch Brothers are just the current day, Rich White Elites who use the same play book. The film will walk you down a bit of historical road so you can understand why we have the Drug War how things began starting with the Chinese and the Opium, morphed over to the blacks, and now onto poor whites.

Yes, the Koch Brothers help to fund ALEC who in turn writes policy and convinces OUR Government to go with the plan, helped by NRA Lobbyist.

Outcome, we all loose, except those at the very top, they never loose. Yet.

Join in on November 5th

Phyllis P (232)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 11:36 am
Sam H, while you are entitled to your responses and opinions, I respect that. However, you know NOTHING about me and the work I have done on behalf of minorities, of many forms and fashions. Nor have you walked in my shoes or lived my experiences, and vice versa. You are very accurate in your statement, that it does not always have to take a gun to stand your ground. On that I can agree.

And I repeat what I said on my first statement...... If other people read obscure messages into that statement, I can't help that.

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 12:34 pm
I can vouch for that about Phyllis. Sam if you go look at her news stories you will see she is a good person. I really think she has been misinformed about this by all the trash that was going around facebook. I traced one of those fear mongering posts there. It led to right wing extremists.

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 1:02 pm
Mis-information is what the Elites want, to muddy the water and divide us. B. Mutiny, bless her heart is on a lot of threads warning us of that. How the racial issue will be used as a tool for the Elites, how the Women's issues will be used as a tool for the Elites to divide us and keep us at each others throats rather than looking at the source.

Again, please if you can watch The House I Live In. Link is in my earlier comment.

Elle B (81)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 1:09 pm
Preface: For those who do not appreciate this content--manner of presentation and or think it too pales in comparison to the reality it seeks to convey that is exponentially harsher--more disgusting and disdainful than could ever be expressed by any words. . .

Trayvon Martin was stalked, hunted, threatened and now dead at the hands of a sick racist killer...because he was black...period. The killer's stories are lame, bogus figments of his dishonest imagination...if you believe are extremely lacking in awareness and/or stupid, and/or ignorant, and/or didn't or don't know how to do your homework, and/or just prefer to live in dream world saturated in denial. Trayvon was killed because he didn't "kowtow" on cue--to a vigilante stalker [even if he had he could still be dead.] He was walking freely as a YOUNG BLACK MALE with a hood up talking on his cellular...his presence and demeanor triggered something in the killer's sick racist mind...period. Conscious or subconscious doesn't matter...same results. If that killer followed me like that...i would have told my friend on the phone to put my call on hold, dial 911 immediately and alert my family/friends on the double--get someone to my location pronto-asap-NOW. It is my estimation that Trayvon did not imagine his stalker was loaded with an itchy trigger finger. He probably thought it was just the run-of-the-mill "white-cracker fool" casing him...almost every black male in America has to deal with that routinely and/or now and then. [Thousands of case examples can be provided...millions and millions exist] A little "case in point": Young adult "white" men wearing "jeans" ran a wide-reaching mail theft ring in our neighborhood for years before the case was finally solved--some actually wore sweatshirts w/hoods at times. [A little a-side: a neighbor closeby was hit hard. On top of the original theft--large corporations billed her for thousands of dollars they had lost in the fraud! Just a day in the life in Corpo-Profitville, USA.] Maybe we don't know what we're doing ...and should be "standing our ground." ...go get some permits to pack and then follow young adult white males dressed like past local theives--especially if they go near mailboxes. ...should we be stalking "them"? Should we follow with concealed weapons and ask "them" what "they" are doing? Should young white males just expect that they will be approached and may be shot if they are walking home wearing jeans, t-shirts and/or sweathshirts w or w/o hoods and rebuke our stalking confrontations as we STAND OUR GROUND? What pathetically stupid minds came up with the Stand Your Ground nonsense? . . .sick racist ones. . . By the way the term "black on black crime" is just more stupid racism. How about white-on-white, brown-on-brown, red-on-red, or any hue-on-hue, etc-etc-etc... And, it doesn't matter if Trayvon's killer sponsored entire multiple inner city minority neighborhoods that's just more illusional mind-games played in denial of the societal illness of multi-ethnic co-dependent "CAUCASIANISM" ... masking individual/collective sick and guilt-ridden souls since the Civil Rights Act of 1968. If you don't know that... you're a part of a very large problem--you missed too many meetings and ignored or didn't get the messages from Martin Luther King, Jr., nor anyone else well versed on the subject...

(1) “Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.”
(2) “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.
“The rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.” ― John F. Kennedy

“Our nation was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American, the Indian, was an inferior race. Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shore, the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society. From the sixteenth century forward, blood flowed in battles over racial supremacy. We are perhaps the only nation which tried as a matter of national policy to wipe out its indigenous population. Moreover, we elevated that tragic experience into a noble crusade. Indeed, even today we have not permitted ourselves to reject or feel remorse for this shameful episode. Our literature, our films, our drama, our folklore all exalt it. Our children are still taught to respect the violence which reduced a red-skinned people of an earlier culture into a few fragmented groups herded into impoverished reservations.” ― John F. Kennedy

PS. A little heads-up...Predominantly black cities in America have been under planned seige since 1968. If you do have the best intentions and your mind is still stuck on stupid--better GET REAL...REAL QUICK. . .referrals can be provided to appropriate educational materials, classes, instructors and institutions.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 1:23 pm

Brava, Elle!

(Gotta admit you did your homework.)


Elle B (81)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 3:20 pm
Ditto, "C" ...

Doubting Thomases and general illusionals should follow John Howard Griffin's excellent lead and do a "Black Like Me." It's not too late at all. The US still wreaks with racism and unlimited opportunities to experience it still exist across the nation. . .go ahead just prepare for the part and immerse in it. Or, go for the gusto. . .prepare for a 400 year saga...pass the opportunity along to future descendents... Regional tour maps and customized living trusts can be made available. . .

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Thursday July 25, 2013, 5:54 pm
O.K.  I just visited this C2NN article and highly recommend it to all:
Think Trayvon's Record Said Something About His Character? Well, Get A Load Of This.

Kheri Hines (0)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 1:47 pm
Center Stage, has done it again. On Friday night, the host came to the internet airwaves to engage in a critical discussion about the controversial "Stand Your Ground" Law and its relevance to the Trayvon Martin case and the Florida v. Zimmerman verdict. With a panel of three criminal attorneys all from Florida and a sociology professor, she was able to engage the audience in topics that ranged from reform or repeal, the application of the law, flaws in the law, the importance of jury selection, race and the law, and a deep discussion about the Zimmerman verdict. Insightful, informative, and an incredible discussion!!! If you missed it live, you have the chance to be there now."
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