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Holy Warriors in the US Armed Forces

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: Separation of Church and State, US military, US armed forces, Jeremy Hall, religion, freedoms, rights, Michael Weinstein, MRFF, federal law )

- 4077 days ago -
Recently the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), an advocacy group, along with Specialist Jeremy Hall filed suit in federal court in Kansas. This case being held in front of civil authorities


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Gorilly Girl (339)
Monday May 19, 2008, 9:54 pm
Crap I so hate these I have no speakers as of yet...Grrrrrrrrrr

Did note...

Gorilly Girl (339)
Monday May 19, 2008, 10:04 pm
I know I just keep forgetting....LOL I stay so busy...But yes gotta get some...LOL

Elisa M (93)
Monday May 19, 2008, 10:06 pm

TY Stephanie, apologies, there's no transcript for this one :(

Past Member (0)
Monday May 19, 2008, 10:38 pm

Thanks, Elisa. Noted.

Marian E (152)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 1:01 am

Actually, "Separation of Church and State" in the U.S. Military has been non existent for a very long time. My father was stationed in Alaska in the 60's. The C.O. ordered all to attend church every Sunday. Only those on Guard duty were exempted.

It looks to me like this was a very long time coming! Thank you Elisa.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 3:38 am
Noted and sent on! Thank you Elisa!

Diana D (177)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 9:06 am
Noted and forwarded. FYI... there is a transcript under the bio on the page link. Thanks Elisa.

Nuria P (54)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 9:56 am
Like ver, thanks Elisa.

Susan L (118)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 10:19 am
Noted and sent on.

Sharon Froehlich (99)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 2:26 pm
Noted and forwarded. Thanks, Elisa

Uncle Funkle (1)
Tuesday May 20, 2008, 6:16 pm
I have been to USAFA and they have many issues there. This one comes as no surprise. I spent many years there and have witnessed many different forms of discrimination. I also noticed the “click” mentality. If you are not in that group then your complaints have less weight than if you were a student/athlete or someone who was in the “click” I cannot go to far into details but there are issues that needs addressing at that place and not a band-aid by changing deans and commandants.

Faith M (161)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 5:51 am
This just reflects the religious culture that is dominent in our country.
The number 1 religion in the USA is Christianity. But as far as the Military goes I have often wondered how they can spout Gods commandments out of their mouth and violate those same commandments in actions and deeds.-there is a word for that-hypocrates. I often wonder what part of thou shall not kill they did not get? The danger is with fanatics of any religion and in these times many are afraid and their is nothing more dangerous than a scared fanatic.The horrors commited down through the centuries using the God Lie is sickning.All is One-One is All -we are all related and Their is only one God -No matter what name you give it!The distortion is in the Mind of Man only. It is a spiritual illness that one sees when we look at the practices of man in regards to God.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 12:19 pm
Quoting Faith “But as far as the Military goes I have often wondered how they can spout Gods commandments out of their mouth and violate those same commandments in actions and deeds.-there is a word for that-hypocrites. I often wonder what part of thou shall not kill they did not get?”
Whoa hold on. You cannot attack the military and not expect someone to stand up and challenge you. To put it bluntly if you do not like the US military and cannot except that the lives we took are in defense of this nation so you may have the FREEDOM to make comments like that then please leave. It is that simple. The men and women that have, and are currently serving need the support of those at home. I have witnessed firsthand the atrocities of war and have looked death in the face. I have lost friends to the war. I signed a paper stating that I will give my life in defense of this country so unless you have the courage to look at the enemy that wants you dead and decide its him or me and survive then you cannot understand the weight that we bear everyday for YOU. Thou shall not kill, yes, but it does not say Thou shall let someone kill you. Stop bashing us and thank us for sacrificing so much so this country may be free from tyranny.
You’re welcome.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 1:13 pm

Even President George W. Bush, the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, has admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. They never had any weapons of mass destruction and they were never a threat to us. Dick Cheney and his cronies wanted their oil. They weren't trying to kill us and there was no possible reason other than oil for us to invade them. It certainly wasn't in self-defense. It was a war of naked aggression, a crime against humanity, and it does not deserve any support.

For your information, "Uncle Funcle," we were never attacked by Viet Nam either. Or by Panama or Grenada. And as for WWII, Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, helped finance Hitler and continued to finance the Nazis during the entire time we were at war. If everyone in the military is as ignorant and blindly obedient as you are, it may explain why they have so little support.

The paper you and everyone else in the military signed was to defend this country, not to attack other countries without provocation and to kill innocent women and children. The Iraqis have every right to defend their country against foreign invaders. They are the ones who can claim self-defense and defense of their country and its people, not you.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 1:26 pm
Well, well, well,
Being active duty all I can say is if you don’t stand behind us then please, I dare you, stand in front of us. When I hit the ground with orders to take a village or clear an area that is exactly what I am going to do. Call me a follower or a lemming all you please but while you do that remember the sacrifices I have given to do my job, a job I am pretty darn good at. Better yet share your opinion to the next guy I have to drag out with missing body parts and look him in his eyes and share your anti military rhetoric.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 1:26 pm
Better question is what have you done in your lifespan to support the freedoms of this land?

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 2:16 pm

I haven't fought to make torture official U.S. policy. I haven't fought to remove the right of U.S. citizens to habeus corpus, a right that dates back to the Magna Carta of the 1600's and which we enjoyed even under the tyrant King George from whom we fought a revolution for much less. I haven't fought to illegal wiretapping on U.S. citizens. I haven't fought for warrantless searches and seizures in our homes, cars, and workplaces. I haven't fought to have to show proper identification in order to vote or to travel within the United States. While you were over killing innocent people that this country invaded in order to steal their oil--people who never threatened us and were no danger to us--most of our freedoms were removed.

And the excuse for removing our freedoms was that supposedly a bunch of Saudi Arabians with box cutters, under the orders of a close friend of the Bush family, whose organization we had sent forty million dollars to a few months earlier, had managed to render our multi-billion dollar defense system, NORAD, SAC, the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. National Guard, and all our other air defenses totally useless.

You defend me? Don't make me laugh. You may be an expert at killing innocent people who have never harmed you, and then claiming revenge when they fight back at people who killed their wives and children for no reason except that they were ordered to, but if you couldn't defend this country against a small group of amateurs without modern weapons, I'd hate to think what would happen if a real army invaded.

Caught Bin Laden yet, big guy? Or did his daddy and Bush's daddy, being such close friends and all, tell you not to look for him and to just keep on killing innocent civilians?


Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 2:26 pm

And by the way, Uncle-having-such-funcle, since the world's sole superpower is still bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, small, poor countries with relatively insignificant militaries, how do you think we'd fare against a nuclear power like China or North Korea? We're real good at picking on countries smaller than we are. but I doubt if any major world powers are too impressed.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 2:30 pm

Okay, I apologize. I owe you. I've been wondering for years why China keeps loaning us money to support our military, and this dicussion led me to finally figure it out. They're not just waiting until they own us financially--they also want to be sure that we've expended all our military strength elsewhere so that when they wish to, they can take us without having to shed much of their own blood. It all makes sense now. Thank you.


Uncle Funkle (1)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 4:01 pm
"Okay, I apologize. I owe you."
Yes you do. You also own this message board for allowing you a venue to spread your cowardice rhetoric.
“Caught Bin Laden yet, big guy?”
Not yet but thanks for you for doing your part in the hunt. Oh wait you are one of those internet gangsters that do not poses the testicular fortitude to actually get off your soap box and take action.
Mr. Mark, I have my opinions on this war that I keep to myself and I refuse to trash talk young men and women as they are being killed in foreign lands. You must be a product of the Vietnam protestors. The same group that chose to spit and ridicule their returning soldiers instead of offering to help them transition.
Put down the keyboard and mouse, and be a man and do something proactive about your beliefs. You don’t like the military, which is ok. Do something about it. You are in Cali and there are plenty of bases there. Go and start your own war since you say “but if you couldn't defend this country against a small group of amateurs without modern weapons, I'd hate to think what would happen if a real army invaded.”
Get your real army and come visit us.
You sicken me and I refuse to engage any further with you.
I also think you are just a lot of talk, a man with no back bone.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 4:13 pm
Ok one last thing. I understand that the majority of the country does not support the war. I understand and believe me a lot of the men and women fighting right now feel similar. Let us not direct our hostilities towards them. They need to know they have a support system at home. Te military is an instrument. I urge you to not blame the instrument direct the criticism towards the one using it. In the military you follow orders if you don’t people die. If you feel this is an unjust war, look at those who voted for it. Look at the ones who want to stay in it. Look at the ones we elected into office and think about it when we go to the polls in November.

Now can we please get back on the topic of the article.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 5:18 pm

UF, did you know that personal attacks are a violation of the Care2 Code of Conduct? You are supposed to address the issue, not the person posting.

"...your cowardice rhetoric. ."

"...gangsters that do not poses the testicular fortitude..."

"You must be a product of the Vietnam protestors. The same group that chose to spit and ridicule their returning soldiers instead of offering to help them transition."

"be a man"

"You sicken me..."

"I also think you are just a lot of talk, a man with no back bone."

That's six personal attacks in one comment. Might be some kind of record. :)

But in your second comment you actually addressed the issue:

"I understand that the majority of the country does not support the war."

Good. I'm glad you understand that. If you understood what a democracy was, you'd know that in a democracy, if the majority opposed something, it would stop.

"I urge you to not blame the instrument direct the criticism towards the one using it."

The one using it is a dictator -- a tyrant who doesn't listen to the people. He will not be swayed by polls or public pressure. He talks directly to God and gets his orders from on high.

"If you feel this is an unjust war, look at those who voted for it."

I dare you to prove that a single citizen voted for the war. We do not have honest, transparent elections in the U.S. More than 80% of U.S. votes are counted secretly inside proprietary central tabulators, and cannot be verified by any human. Malware that alters the results of an election and then erases itself and all log traces, is undetectable, even to computer forensics experts. I happen to believe that there were some people who voted for the war, but that's just a belief. No scientific proof is possible.

"In the military you follow orders if you don’t people die."

ROFLMAO! Sorry to have to break it to you kid, but in the military when you DO follow orders people die. If you really think that the only U.S. troops who died in Iraq were ones who had disobeyed orders, you've got a lot to learn.

"Look at the ones we elected into office and think about it when we go to the polls in November."

Suppose you had stolen a country and you didn't want people to know it?

You could hold elections to make them think they still had a voice.
But they might notice that the election results never match what polls
say people want. So here's what you do:

1. Make it as hard as possible for people to vote. They'll fight for
their right to vote. That will keep them distracted so they won't
realize that their votes don't count.

2. Make it as difficult as possible to ascertain the results of the
election. People will spend years trying to figure out what really
happened in an election. That gives you years to keep looting the
treasury and waging wars of aggression for personal profit.

3. Stage flashy campaigns with larger than life candidates and phony
issues. People will fight over which pro-war party should win and which
pro-war candidate should win, and that will keep them from noticing that the
people, that majority who want peace, never win.

Electoral politics in the U.S. is like professional wrestling. It has
more fans and makes a lot more money, but it is just as phony.

The topic was the Christian fundamentalist crusade that the U.S. Air Force and other religious fanatics within our government and military, are waging against Islam, and the persecution that Americans who attempt to exercise their Constitutional right to Freedom of Religion, are subjected to in our armed forces. They are, as usual, being asked to kill to defend freedoms that they don't have.

I guess it takes brave and valiant men and women to do that, huh? And for your information, I wasn't a Viet Nam war protester because I was over in Afghanistan. By the time the Viet Nam war ended I was in India and I told a friend of mine, a Buddhist monk, that the war had ended. Parma just smiled sadly at me and said, "I'm from Cambodia. We have been at war for 2,000 years. It isn't over." I remembered his words when I saw pictures of Pol Pot's killing fields. War will continue as long as there are people who are willing to follow orders and unwilling to question authority. We can weep for them, but it is very difficult to save them. They attack the character of anyone who tries. Most of them do know that what they are doing is wrong, which is why there is such a high suicide rate, but they think that nonviolence is cowardice. They have been taught to glorify death, so if they can't kill others, they kill themselves. Trying to use reason and logic to appeal to true believers or to jackbooted fascist thugs has never been a successful strategy.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 6:02 pm
Thanks Mark
I am a more rounded person thanks to your posts. You are a very intelligent gentleman with strong views. You have showed me the error of my ways. I commend you. I apologize for the personal attacks. They were unwarranted.
Hey you and I both have been to around the world, that’s cool. Never been to Afghanistan but I have been to Cambodia and you know someone from Cambodia. We are two well traveled guys that are fairly intelligent. I apologize also for all the innocent lives I have taken and the villages I pillaged that was wrong and I see that now. Let’s be friends.

Anyway back on topic, the separation of church and state can never be truly separate. I believe that no one should be persecuted because of their faith in this country since many came here seeking refuge from persecution.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 6:46 pm

Apology accepted.

As for being friends, that remains to be seen.

You ever hear of a dude named John McCarthy? He has a website here:


Somebody told me about him some years back and I found his website to be very interesting. So when I happened to run into him I really thought we were going to be friends. But then he started emailing me some really dumb stuff. I don't have time for dumb stuff and I asked him not to send me any more. He kept doing it anyway. He seemed to think it was worthwhile. So I decided that he has a gullible streak, which may have been what got him into some situations in the first place. I still like him, but I don't count him among my friends.

Friends, among other things, are often people you can rely on to watch your back. No matter how skilled, experienced, or otherwise competent they may be, you really don't ever want to be in the position of having to rely on anyone with a gullible streak. So let's just wait and see how this plays out, okay? :)

While we're agreed that nobody should be persecuted for their faith, I do believe that separation of church and state is possible. It had darned well better be, as it happens to be Constitutionally mandated. Just because our government happens to function according to "The Peter Principle," where the least competent get promoted to the highest positions, doesn't mean that something isn't possible. If it isn't happening it often just means that some AIC messed up.

Gorilly Girl (339)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 6:48 pm
Uncle and Mark Gorilly was fixin too sit on both of you if you hadnt made up....LOL

BIG Gorilly Hugs to you two...and everyone else for that matter...Sqweeeeeeeeeeeezzzeeeeeeee....

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 21, 2008, 8:01 pm

Gosh darn it, Gorilly! How many times do I have to tell you that people my age have brittle bones? Ahhh, that's okay -- I didn't really need those ribs anyway. It's a small price to pay for having a good gorilly friend. Hugs back at ya, nanners all around, and, uh, if it wouldn't be too much of an imposition, could you try not to make me laugh for a few weeks? :)

CC C (15)
Thursday May 22, 2008, 10:29 am
Religion is supposed to be a private matter...not for Anyone to dictate to you how or what to believe....not for debate by your ranking officers or bosses...or townships.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Thursday May 22, 2008, 1:23 pm
But why is "In God we Trust" on the money printed by gov't if church and state are separate?

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 22, 2008, 1:50 pm

Good question. Something tells me that if the Big Dude who chased the money-changers out of the temple and said, "Render unto Caeser..." etc., comes back and sees the word God printed on money, some darned fools in government will have a whole lot of 'splaining to do. You might as well cover a crucifix with dollar bills if you want to do something totally inappropriate. It wasn't just the Constitution that said that church and state should be separate. Jesus said it first.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Thursday May 22, 2008, 2:32 pm
Hmm I never thought of it in that context. But you are right. Wow someone is in big trouble.

Faith M (161)
Thursday May 22, 2008, 3:16 pm
Uncle Funkie -I was not putting down our soldiers -nor our right to bear arms for self defence or defend onesself when attacked- I was speaking to the Religion in the war. This post was about the religious Christian fanatics in the military.If one feels the need to defend their country then please feel free- but do not spout Gods name when you do and call it truth. I have also looked death in the face and witnessed a few horrors myself.-I beleive in our constitution and I strongly believe in defending this homeland but what what we have here does not fall into that catagory.and Mark it isn't often I agree with you- but I do here

Faith M (161)
Thursday May 22, 2008, 6:41 pm
Uncle funkie -we all support our soldiers and this is my country-my ancesters were here loong before any white man set foot on this continent.
I love this country and I am very glad there are people who are willing to fight and die for it and these freedoms -however where you are fighting does not defend my freedoms here.They are under attack from a far more dangerous enemy than Iraq extremists-they are under attack with this war as a cover from the inside and they are calling it protecting us. Our Constitution which is the law of this land upon which every President is sworn to uphold and defend is being taken away a piece at a time in the name of our protection by a wanna be dictater President and a group of people who want to rule the world and for the most part a greedy not good for much Congress. I want this country to fulfill the dream it was given and set forth by our founding Fathers.Last but not least I honor every drop of blood given in defence of those freedoms.I hope this clears any misunderstanding.

Uncle Funkle (1)
Friday May 23, 2008, 11:48 am
uncle funkIE
thats cute
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