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International Trade of Human Embryos on the Internet - Is This Ethical, Legal?


Society & Culture  (tags: children, child, humans, rights, violence, women, world, sadness, internet, law, human trade, infertility )


- 3958 days ago - embryosalive.com
Choose your frozen baby - shipped to a location near you!!!! Is this the newest form of human trade?



   

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Comments

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:07 am

I urge you all to read and browse the site - now I do hope this is a hoax site. Really.
I am a childless woman - I had taken steps of checking into IV. I did not go on with it - for ethical reasons. I do not condem anyone doing IV - this is something you have to deceide with yourself - but trading the surplus embryos via internet???? Like on-line shopping. Can you imagine what this means? It opens up all doors for trading human embryos. I am not a pro lifer at all cost - I am neither someone that would put abortion at the same ethical level as birth control either - but this is crossing a line by far.
 

Maria S (338)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:09 am
Yes, unbelievable! In what world or civilization are we becoming? It is only about money!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:10 am
I mean would you put a baby in cryo storage - freeze it and defrost it like a TV dinner? Which hair color would you like and this would go nicely with green eyes and a tall stature..
So, on one side they argue it is not a child yet - and on the other they are not able to dispose / bury it either - but sell it?

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:50 am
I think I need to create a discussion group about this or smoething like that ....

Apperently I have been crudly awakened -

Read more

Adoption's New Frontier
'Snowflake' Babies Adopted For Personal, Political Reasons
July 28 2005 CBS News

Bush kisses Snowflake baby
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:52 am
I suspect by the next century an embryo will be sold in pill form in a bottle with said description of hair color, eyes & so on........

Lord.....We are nutsssssssssssssssss!!

A friend whispered
Into her companions ear,
if you plant trees
There will always be
snowflakes........

PLANT TREES FOR LIFE......

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:53 am

and more

The problem with ‘embryo adoption’
Why is the government giving money to ‘Snowflakes?

Snowflakes has received over $1 million from the Bush administration and Congress
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:54 am


ADVERSIVE - CONTRA COMMENTS ARE WELCOMMED -

ALSO PRO SNOWFLAKE ADOPTION ----
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:01 am
Nightlight Christian Adoptions is also handling Snowflake "adoptions" as well as international adoption with the price =

COSTS
The costs for an adoption from Kazakhstan are explained on the current Fee Schedule. The fees will include Program Fees, Orphanage donations, Agency Coordinated Expenses (where the expenses are paid through our office) and Estimated Client Coordinated Expenses including travel, lodging, CIS fees and miscellaneous costs.
We make every effort to give you a realistic budget to avoid surprises. However, variations may result from differences in home study costs, travel, and actual length of stay in Kazakhstan.
FEE SCHEDULE
Program Fee:
$19,000
(Agency Coordinated Expenses
are included in Program Fee)
Estimated Client Coordinated
Expenses:
$18,090
Estimated Total Expenses:
$37,090

YEP 37,090$$$$$

So where does this leave Snowflake?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:07 am

Nightlight Christian Adoptions ---- christian!!!! mind you!!

nowflakes Program fee: $8,000 (paid in four payments of $500, $500, $3500, $3500)

Home study agency fee: $1,000-3,000 (Nightlight’s home study fee is $2,600)

Medical fees for a Frozen Embryo Transfer: $3,000-5,000

Total fees: $12,000-16,000



 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:09 am
They even have a whole set of links where you can obtain credit from.... ie "The Abba Foundation" etc...

So, now you know why Bush - or what the driving force behind the outlawing of abortion and birth control is all about!!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:15 am
....

from another site ---- they seem to be cheaper ....

How much does embryo adoption cost?
An embryo adoption cycle in our clinic costs US $ 3500 only. As an alternative, you can ship the embryos to an IVF clinic of your own choice, in a dry shipper. These embryos will need to be hand-carried..

Here is a sampling of some of the embryos available for adoption in our clinic.

Embryos # 185 9 embryos. 4- cells and 2-cells
Husband 28 yr, 6 feet tall, fair, AB +, Indian, black eyes, black hair
Wife 26 yr, 5’6”, fair, O +, Indian, black eyes, black hair

Embryos # 186 12 embryos, 4-cells and 2-cells
Husband 38 yr, 5’l0 ”, dark, O +, Indian, black eyes, black hair
Wife 27 yr, 5’3”, dark, AB +, Indian, black eyes, black hair

Embryos # 161 8 embryos, 2-cells
Husband 26 yr, 5’11”, A +, Indian, black eyes, black hair
Wife 28 yr, 5’5”, B +, Indian, black eyes, black hair

Embryos # 158
9 embryos, 4-cells
Husband 39 yr, 5’8”, fair, O +, Indian, black eyes, black hair
Wife 28 yr , 5’2”, fair, B +, Indian, black eyes, black hair

Embryos # 125
11 embryos, 2-cells

......

Get the picture???? Trading human cells!!!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:20 am
Just like in vitro fertilization, embryo adoption is not guaranteed to result in a pregnancy or a child. Unfortunately, only about two-third of the embryos survive the thawing process. There is only a 20 to 25 percent chance embryo implantation will successfully result in a pregnancy
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:23 am
Embryo Adoption, Stem Cell Research, Partial Birth Abortion Oh My: Breaking News From DITM
 

RC d (418)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 8:28 am
unbelievable...I cannot comprehend this but then in some ways I'm an "old-fashioned girl"...I myself am an adoptee but I was out and breathing before being passed along...what if the embryo you get isn't what you expected? I mean, how the HELL would you know the actual genetics of an embryo gathered and shipped from goddess-knows where? And what if the embryo is defective and spontaneously aborts, or the resulting baby is born with major defects?
 

Angela Rhodes (127)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 9:28 am
I am OUTRAGED by this!!! I cannot have children but I would NEVER stoop to this level, for Gods sake surely this is not legal!! Another thing I believe is that it is not every womans right to have children it is a privilage which many women forget!!!
 

Brenda H (29)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 10:15 am
I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING ON SNOPE'S ABOUT THIS--I THINK GOD IS NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS--WE JUST KEEP PUSHING HIS BUTTONS--NOT A GOOD THING! THANKS MY FRIEND!
 

ELGIN LEE BAKER (51)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 10:51 am
if it is not your bodies ...............you really should not be overly concerned if ya dont like the practice dont do it ......these things are very simple ...........we have been using this sort of thing for a very long time ............
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 10:53 am
Sorry to say - it is "legal" and even endorsed by President Bush himself and funded by the US Goverment.

Cate - I am glad you found your true parents - aperently they done a terrific job raising you, cause you are a terrific lady.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 11:07 am
Elgin Lee B.

This does not make it ethical right - nor is it fair to women who rather need counceling than to be financially exploited. Don't you see the danger in a commercial exploitation and trading of embryos with certain genetic trades? Reminds me of a very weird scifi horror film. Just imaginge elite embryos being kept back .. stem cell research .. etc.
The procedure has a 25% sucess rate for gods sake. Apperently any embryo that is "donated" is used - no matter how old.

What do you mean you have been doing this for a very long time? Since when plese? How do you support the ethical aspect?
 

Marion Y (322)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 11:43 am
Not a good thing.
 

Phyllis P (232)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 1:13 pm
Please don't laugh, and I don't like muddling thru a bunch of info. I like it right to the point. How are they getting the embryos?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 1:38 pm
They are the left over embryos "donated" by women who done IV (embryo implants).
 

Linda H (199)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 2:13 pm
If the woman do not want them why not giv them away! Charging so much is pure greed! Baby selling is a crime isn't it?? Who knows I lost!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 2:32 pm
The women "give them away" at least that is what is done or said - but the "transfer of ownership" as they call it is NOT protected under real law regulations. There is no law associating embryos being equal to babies. That is only one point of discussion - what are embryos - clusters of 2 to 8 cells - are they babies? Should they be protected as babies - born babies?
If yes, then what happens to "pro choice"? Legalizing and protecting one would need to regulate the other ....

Look further up - they have "catalouges" of embryos available - the cheap ones are "indian" - sorry no racism from my side - but please concern yourself - till now it was up to women to reproduce. Now we can make embryos in the petri dish.
How would you be able to keep track of harvested eggs and semen?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 2:39 pm
Ehhmmm the receipient - the potental mother is paying for services as they call it.
 

Kathy W (299)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 2:47 pm
Isabella, this just blows me away. I don't even know what to say right now, will have to think on it awhile.
 

Deborah Hooper (59)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 3:24 pm
I couldn't get to the site to read the article, but as for our government giving money, it's another reason to fire them all. I am so sick of them wasting money on what they think is worthy while people just in the US go hungry and homeless. They disgust me.

We hire them to do a job, and it's a temp job at that, you'd think they make a better go of it wouldn't you. If I had no more thought for my boss than they do for theirs, I'd be out on my ass.
 

Deborah Hooper (59)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 3:35 pm
Got to the site. This isn't something new. They have been doing this for a long time. Families that can't have children or have difficulty and have to go invetro usually have left over embryo's that they may or may not use eventually. If not used, they are disposed of, discarded. Remember a few years back the battle over whether the embryo's should be disposed of by throwing them in the trash or using them for stem cell research? Well, now, like men donating sperm for money, women are donating eggs for money. These eggs could be fertilized with the husbands sperm, or a donors sperm then implanted into another woman's womb that wants a child but isn't married or for other reasons. This is what happens when people who want children can't have them, and people that shouldn't have children don't give them up for adoption. There aren't enough babies for adoption, and everyone wants a baby.
 

Deborah Hooper (59)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 3:50 pm
I have to ask, is all life precious or not? Personally I think it's wrong to be implanted with multiple embryos and give multiple births, be it 3, 4, 5, 6, or more, it's crazy. But the embryo's will die if not used. So, is all life precious or not? Also, do we have the right to tell a woman she can't have a child if this is the only way to do so?

After working in a Domestic Violence shelter, I have to say that many people are not qualified to be parents. There should at least be parenting classes and tests to see if you are sufficiently giving to be a parent. But, that's just my opinion.

I'm an extreme liberal and also a mother and grandmother. I believe abortion is murder. I had a life growing in me. Abortion was not an option, ever. But I believe that it is each individual's choice. While I believe it is murder, and I wouldn't help my dearest friend get an abortion (this did happen, we are still best friends), I wouldn't stop her either. If my argument for not getting the abortion didn't work, I at least tried my best.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 4:10 pm
I've read all the comments agree with all.

Who died & left idiots in charge of baby planting?

What about all these millions & millions of children who have no parents at all, in orphanages!!!!!!! What is wrong with children who have no parents?????

Are we nuts or what!!?? The world has 6.3 billion people......Do we really need more? And for what??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone ever died from not having children!!!!!!!!!

PLANT TREES FOR LIFE...............
 

Bronwyn H (228)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 5:15 pm
Noted and thanks Isabella. This is outrageous on all sides. Can you imagine the psychological issues that the child could have later in life.

Where are the American Government's morals?
 

Ivette C (8)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 6:40 pm
I am outraged. There's a strange feeling in my stomach as I read the info in the website. I have asked myself about those embryos left in the lab. This is life, frozen, but the process of life was started as soon as they fertilized those eggs. IF they discard them, they kill these children. What is the point of creating so much embryos in each cycle??? This should not be allowed... These are children, in an early stage of development...but they are alive... As you said, it does seem like trade... Where are we heading as a specie? This is scary..
 

Blacktiger P (247)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 7:42 pm
OMG! With that much money to spare why don't they make life better for orphans and poor kids around the world, via WORLD VISION, PLAN,CHRISTIAN CHILDREN'S FUND, AND MANY MORE! Yes these plans have admistration fees, so what, in the end starving for love, food, shelter,clothes, education, the next generation all over the world need help.
 

Merry L (74)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 8:26 pm
Great info and comments. Thanks for posting Isabella. I was aware of the practice, but not aware of the cost. I have a very bad feeling about this!
 

Larry S (645)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 9:16 pm
Horrible, ugly, nasty and sickening greed. I wouldn't doubt someone doing this for a moment.
 

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 9:31 pm
Try explaining this one to the kids when they grow up.

huh honey,,, well your father was,, huh huh,, your mother was,, huh huh

Truth is bought you frozen & packaged:(

Reread this woman's credits she is giving herself.
Since I'm not having much luck sending messages on here, I'm going to go check this out.
 

. (0)
Thursday August 21, 2008, 10:18 pm
This kind of stuff should never be for I agree with Black Tiger the money needs to be put to use for the children her now for this they are doing is wrong they are playing God. Heaven for forbid this act. Thanks Issabella for bringing this to light for us.
 

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Friday August 22, 2008, 2:34 am
Funny how this woman is so famous and well known,,, I can't find anything about her,, except her page that says so:)
It might be legal,, but it's still a sin. For pity sakes, it's not like there aren't plenty of children out there that need to be adopted.

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=1457483&nid=25

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/thomas100806.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4038249/

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/01/23/sex.workers/index.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/5000-child-sex-slaves-in-uk-437800.html
 

Past Member (0)
Friday August 22, 2008, 2:45 am

As you all noticed the issue goes much deeper than one thinks at first glance:

First - Is a feritlized egg an embryo at cell divison 2 - 4?

Would you be pregnant at this stage you would not know it and in fact most pregancies are terminated naturally at this time. Legally at this stage the cells are not recognised as individual self sustaining live. At age 3 months when the brain develops this changes and we recognize the embryo as fetus.

Second:

The implanted mother is actually a surgoate mother under current law. The prior to birth adoption of a POSSIBLE VIAL human cell cluster is confered to as "TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP". It is up to the company what proceedures they follow.

Third:

Onwnership, Theft and Sale of human cells - ie sperma and eggs seperatly or merged and divided ---- who will and is ABLE to keep tabs on the actual numbers? Just as women are paid to surrogate (remeber the outsorcing in India), women are paid to donate their eggs - at this time you could sell your LEFT OVER EMBRYOS on E-BAY!!!

Forth

The Snowflake embryos are a BY-Product of IV - in other words - the sperma and eggs are merged in a petri dish - and then at cell division stage 4 - 8 implanted in the mother. Usually the genetic material is either from both parents or at least from one. More than on cell cluster is implanted to assure an impregantion.
Most of the time - if the woman had a lot of eggs to be harvested - BACK-UP embryos are kept on ice - in case inpregnation fails.
If all goes well - these embryos would need to be discarded - just like sperma or unfertilized eggs, so as not to be abused, traded and experimented upon.

Fith

The so called embryos or cell cluster are actually in a stage of animated suspension - or a technical death. If they would defrost "normally" they would not be able to revive. They are in terms as we understand today - dead. There is no regognition of any human form or live, no heart beat ..etc.

Sixth

The cell clusters have only a limited life span - with clusters older than 2 years on ice haven virtually very little chance to re-vive.

Seventh

Church argues about discarded embryos - actually they are cell clusters - but even though - what is IV? Is the creation of life in a labaratory an acceptable (by the church) method?

Eigth

Adoption

There are more than enough CHILDREN who need homes - but people want to adopt babies (like they prefer puppies or kittens) - there are enough babies as well in this world who die, or suffer because we can afford to pay 16.000$ for a one time shot on being impregated with foreign genetic material - in other words have the baby of an other couple!!!
 

ELGIN LEE BAKER (51)
Friday August 22, 2008, 3:46 am
first they are just clusters of cells .................they are not BABIES ..............they are possible babies .........they only become a baby when a WOMAN WISHES TO CARRY THE CELLS TO TERM ........end point...........

this practice {as i alluded to earlier.........."we have been using this sort of thing for a very long time" ............} (maybe i should of wrote quite awhile )has been going since the mid 80ies ....the reason you are able to know about it now is due to the internet prior to this it was all handled by those in the know ..........there were lots of plane flights to and fro to obtain the possibility one desires ....i would say this shipping of the cells is a GREENER WAY OF OBTAINING ONE'S POSSIBILITY .....one can and do still travel by plane ,train and automobile to get their desired POSSIBILITY
....there were and probably still are specialist banks in the united states and in the world which i would classify as racist banks which only deal with one type of collection ...........i have to support their practice due to my view of the future ............

LET ME EXPLAIN ...........say i am a member of a couple {WE WERE BOTH BORN WITH A GENETIC TRAIT WHICH SOME WOULD CALL A FLAW .........WE CALL A GIFT } I.E ALBINISM OR DEAFNESS .........we can then seek a DESIRED POSSIBILITY via the net now or in person now which could grant a a child which meets our desires ..........LIFE IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE A CRAP SHOOT !!!!!!!!!!! so whether we get that desired effect we seek is anyones guess ..........one would wish to believe no matter what child is born the child would be loved .............BUT WE KNOW PEOPLE DONT ALWAYS DO THAT ..........this practice could also be used to insure in some's minds the saving of minority ethnic groups the world over ........i.e full blood CHEROKEES are few and far between .........OR ,LETS SAY AS A GAY COUPLE I WISH TO HAVE A CHILD AND WE FINALLY ISOLATE THE GENE WHICH MAKES ONE GAY ..........we do know if this happened many would choose to abort .......since this is something that concerns myself .........i would them opt to have a gay child ........i would also then look for high intelligence ,a delta 36 gene{this gene is show to keep one from getting the plague and hiv} as well as the natural ability to fight off hpv{with 80 percent of the populous having it i would want to protect my possible child }

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK WHERE THIS 25 PERCENT SUCCESS RATE COMES FROM...........even if this is true i am not going to direct people how they should send their monies .........if someone wants to spend 19,000 dollars on a possibility thats on them ..........i am quite aware that these sites that are linked here to "pro-lifers" or as i like to call them zealots ..........BUT AS SOMEONE HOW IS PRO CHOICE ..........if i do not support this non threating process of procreation i then fail to be PRO CHOICE .........IT IS NOT ANYONES BUSINESS WHAT YOU DO OR DONT DO WITH YOUR BODY WHEN IT COMES TO HAVING OR NOT HAVING CHILDREN ............THATS PRO CHOICE .............again if YOU dont like it dont use it ..........

the site here which linked is based in OHIO so that means they are under the laws of the united states of america and ohio as well as any state or nation they do business with ...........but for the most part u.s,a and ohio laws ...............I WOULD NEED TO BE SHOWN ABUSES BY THE PRACTICE TO ACT OUT AGAINST THEM ...............THE POSSIBILITY OF ABUSE and illegal /unethical behavior is in every single system which is ...................but i am not going to rail against something i do not see human rights violations at this time ......THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT SEES POSSIBILITIES IN NOT RECORDING OUR LICENSE PLATES AND PASSPORTS WHEN LEAVE OR RETURN FROM ABROAD .............HELL THEY ARE RECORDING THE PLATES COMING AND GOING TO DC AND NEW YORK OR WILL BE SHORTLY ........

my logic for this subject is the same .........no data to show a threat /abuse no need to rail /rally for or against .....FYI IF YOU ARE CONFUSED ......I FEEL IT IS AN INVASION OF PRIVACY TO RECORD OUR LICENSE PLATES AND PASSPORTS ......AND I THINK IT IS INVASION OF PRIVACY TO TRY AND RAIL AGAINST THESE PEOPLES CHOICE IN TRY TO HAVE A CHILD .............thats ROE VS. WADE

as for adoption of children .............it is not an option for some .......they are considered to old ........they may not meet some others criteria set by state or national laws ..........there are so many ......each nation has there own ......some very important to protect children some are just bureaucracy...............this is an option beyond that system .......which i should say many of you rail against on a daily basis ..........

as for telling a child were they came from you dont have to .............but for those that do you tell them dont sugar coat things ...............hey i chose you ..............i had so many babies i could of chose and i chose you ......NOW THIS IS THE CLINCHER ...............BECAUSE YOU ARE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL I SAW IN ALL OF THE WORLD..................who your dad is ............well honey he is in the livingroom..............or well you dont have one ......................its easy ...............





 

Past Member (0)
Friday August 22, 2008, 9:55 am
Ethics is a each to its own type of thing as is sin.

I have 5 children all born naturally and am on a list to be a foster mother. And I see nothing wrong with this, if a person chooses to do this then in their mind it is ethically right. Who are we to tell someone else what is and isn't ethical?

The first test tubed baby just celebrated her 30th Birthday in July. She is fine, educated, has a good career and is married with her first child. I do not think she would say this was unethical, since it is how she became to be on the earth and is very happy and accpeting of how she came into this world...

So again who's ethics and who is wrong?

Are any of you aware of the umbilical cord issue? Parents, some who have been coned into, allowing the 'government' the rights to their child's umbilical cord and do what they wish with it as far as testing and experimenting on them. Parents are to pay a very high monthly fee for storage and they the Scientists are granted full access to the DNA inside that umbilical. Whats the difference?

To each is own boys, to each is own... I like mine raw.......
 

Esther T (23)
Friday August 22, 2008, 6:05 pm
Oh, for the first look its horrible. But, it may be a necessary evil.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 2:36 am
Elgin Lee B

Thank you for your detailed input - I love discussion - first off I am NON-US just for the sake of my background and childless (medical reason) previously on both sides - now the time is in natural terms speaking "up". I spent many months and years crying and wanting - something you as a man might not understand - but I found then, that pregnancy was THE most sexual expirence.
I dreamt about it, thought about it day and night and changed streets when I saw a mother pushing a pram.
Then we found out that there was never ever going ot be a chance for hubby NR1 to father a child - a routine check up spotted the problem.... For him a world stopped, as well as for myself. He needed counceling, never got it, got in trouble, became even more abusive ... Divorce
In comes hubby2 - again - nothing - workup, tests, different country - no chance. IVF - possibility ..? Just as I went for my second Ultrasound to determine the development of my eggs - I deceided - STOP ---- STOP!
Whenever I persued something in my life that was not supposed to be, it went sour. I have a brother, both mentally and physically disabled (not a birth defect) and I thought of all the possibilities..
Adoption - oh yea - easy right - wrong!!! Very wrong - handicaped child yes, normal child no - too young, financially "insecure". But a child with special needs that we could have had - I love my brother like my life, but I knew that I needed more resources to care for a special child, than for a "normal".
Friends adopted from an other country. They got their daughter, she studies music and math, out of an orphanage under apauling conditions...
I know today that for me there is / was a reason not to have children. I am mother to many, not only to one, which I guard jealously from all.

I think this what is suposed to be: to parent one way or the other, the unwanted and needy. And if it is not for children, then animals or needy humans or plants .... or even yourself.

That is me.


BUT
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 3:04 am


BUT

the 25% are for cell clusters longer than 2 years in cryo storage. Thye do expire and the numbers some companies use as available embryos as they call it - is misleading and plays on the pain of these parents and especially the women.

Money
I don't really care either what one does with their money, I would whish it to be put to good use, rather than to use it only on a matter "can do" - "will do". We are talking about a lot of money!! So, ultimately it is a privelege of the affluent to reproduce - no sorry - to carry out a child. Because reproduction is done by either:
a - an other affluent person ---- or
b - by a very needy person selling their body (reminds me of the poor selling their teeth or now selling their blood, surrogate mothers for rent, etc)
For me this opens up the whole discussion on who is more priveleged to carry on the human race. Are we to base this rigt solely on $$$?

Law and legallity
Watching licensplates, micro chipping etc ..... do not represent a provision in adoption laws. I do not care if till now no case of abuse is "known". - As you point out this has been going on for longer than the public knows - or not - .Plus we have to see this on a global level - medical tourism is a modern day fact. One question that would interst me is "to whom do those cells belong"? To mother and father (donors) or the mother only ---- what about one of the or both donor parents wanting the child, because for example their own IVF baby - kid died and the surplus cells were used???

Cross this bridge when we get to it?

Answers to your child -
Nice - good words of comfort - yet - lots of time not enough. For a child, for a human it doesn't matter if someone else can handle it. What concerns a child is how they are doing, feeling and who they are. They want to be "normal" of norm - not special and "not of norm". They want to fit in.
Being a survivor of child abuse and having a handicapped brother made me only much too aware of it how much NORMAL a child wants to be.

Not explain or not tell - that is a lie and cowardness, hidden under the "best interest" blanket. We need to know, for medical reasons for example. We are learning more and more every day, so tomorrow who knows what we want / need to know.

The Snowflake adoptions can not be stopped anymore - the knowledge and the practise is already out there. If one country won't do it - another will. Abuse will and is happening - just like the sale of donor organs, children, women, slaves etc. It is not the right of these cell clusters to be guarded - NO - but the parties involved in this "transaction of ownership" - the donors, the birth mother and father, the women and men unknowingly supplying material to further this new commodity.

We are too many on this planet already - and we will suffer the consequences, becasue we do, as we can. Because we have misplaced the ability to bring sacrifice, to say "no" to oneself, to step back and rethink. Our sence of community has been replaced by egotism. THE "I" is the new God
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 3:06 am

..... to be catered to. "For the greater good" - is something from the past. And so, we march towards our own evolution into ..........?
 

Janet Wintle (87)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 4:33 am
This is against the creator, all who have children, should have them if God sends them. Not decided on by humans, this is upsetting the balance of creation. There are too many on the planet already, and the balance has to be put right. If you live by Gods law, you will receive a child, when and if you deserve one. And when you do, it is a blessing put upon you . Thank you Lord for your wisdom, Amen Janet
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 4:42 am
Thank you Janet for your input - I do agree with you that we are already too many and that it goes against balance of creation - as creation being natural law however.
God does not want a woman to suffer internal injuries from abuse so she is childless or a man to have t biologihe mumps at age 6 and become sterile.

This is not about being deserving and religious - it is biological - hence atheism is not a birth control.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 8:08 am
I made a choice early in life not to have any children (because I did not want to run the risk of exposing a child of mine to the same horrors I went through) and my only fear was that I might accidentally get pregnant.

If I would have wanted children and could not have any, I would have chosen adoption. It is far better to adopt a child and give it the best live and future than to have some stranger's embryo implanted and pay through the nose for it. God honored my decision not to have children. But I have 3 foster sons and one foster daughter (all grown up now) whom I brought to Malaysia to study. Now they are back in their own countries and doing wonderfully well. Except for the girl, the others email me at least once a week. I could not be happier as I feel they are MY children - the ones God wanted me to have. He made me mother to many children and soon I will be grandmother to one and maybe more later on when the other 2 boys and the girl get married.

I find this embryo trade very offensive.
 

. (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 9:12 am
As embryos are not legally human beings, I see no reason why they cannot be bought and sold. After all, in our society we allow them to be destroyed all the time. How is destruction any more moral than sale? Just because people are uncomfortable with the idea doesn't make it wrong.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 10:34 am
KUDDOS to you Marena - you are a person - in my believe - that makes this world a better one ---

Lindsey O'Connor --- it is not about the protection of a cell cluster of 2 - 8 cells - but rather the donors and the potential child eventually evolving from it - AND Society..

HAS NOBODY EVERY READ HUXLEY - Brave New World?
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 10:53 am
I created a Network Share in reference to Huxley - I can not say it any better - for those of you who dare to "read and think" - I find it scary, but then call me a romantic .... I still like pillow talk.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 12:04 pm
Special delivery: World's first "test tube baby" turns 30

Louise Brown, the first child conceived by assisted reproductive technology or in vitro fertilization (IVF), as it is commonly known, enters her 30s today. Her 1978 birth, just outside of Manchester, England, caused a stir throughout the world, with many groups claiming that her manner of conception was akin to scientists playing God. Today, she is merely the first of more than 3.5 million children around the globe (more than 250,000 in the U.S.) conceived in a test tube. That accounts for 1.5 percent of all babies born every year. According to celebrity magazine US Weekly, that number includes Angelina Jolie and Bratt Pitt's twins Knox and Vivienne born in Nice, France, on July 12.

IVF now makes it possible for the more than seven million American women who cannot conceive naturally to have children. But, the technology is not without risks. To increase the odds of a successful pregnancy, several fertilized eggs must be placed in a woman's uterus at a time. More than 30 percent of successful IVF pregnancies result in mothers giving birth to twins, triplets or greater numbers of babies, which increases the chances of low birth-weight and complications during delivery. Scientists are working on better ways to determine which embryos have the best chance of developing into healthy babies so as to cut down on the number of fertilized eggs they load into a hopeful mother's uterus.

Brown's mom tried unsuccessfully for nearly a decade to get pregnant, but failed because of a fallopian tube problem. She and her husband eventually turned to University of Cambridge fertilization experts Robert Edwards and Patrick Steptoe, and on July 25, 1978, Louise Brown was delivered by C-section. Brown is now an administrator at a shipping company in Bristol and the proud mother of an 18-month-old boy named Cameron, whom she conceived naturally.

To mark the 30th anniversary of her birth, the British Fertility Society took a survey of fertility experts to determine if standards should be in place to evaluate whether prospective mothers are fit for IVF. More than 75 percent of those surveyed believe that women who smoke or are obese should be asked to change their lifestyles before undergoing the procedure.

(Credit: iStockphoto/Kiyoshi Takahase)
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=special-delivery-worlds-first-test-2008-07-25
__________________________________________________________________
Again the parents and children do not seem to be as effected as you want them to be.
 

ELGIN LEE BAKER (51)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 12:22 pm
WHY YES I HAVE READ HUXLEY'S "BRAVE NEW WORLD"

i do not see how this practice here would be linked to the practice in the novel ?????????????

NOW MANY OF YOU HAVE THROWN "god" into this ,.............well the sites here as i have stated earlier are linked to pro-life organizations ............their idea of god .......has them believing that once and egg and a sperm meet ............fuse and the cells begin to divide .....its a person ..........to me its cells ..............possibilities ......

I AM A HIGH FLYING ATHEIST ..WHO EQUATES THESE IDEAS OF "god" TO IGNORANCE AND FEAR
{and generally people who got nothing to say of their own }......BUT I WILL STAND UP EVERY TIME TO PROTECT THESE PEOPLES RIGHT TO ACT IN A CIVIL WAY TO ADHERE TO THEIR IDEAS OF FAITH ..............

the donors ...........please show me a clear example of abuse thus so far ..........

i do not understand this if you could expand on this" the potential child eventually evolving from it - AND Society"

i would like to say i am a strong believer in zero population growth ..........if i was some sort of zealot in control of the world i would ban procreation in all forms for humans for 25 years ........this would of course excluding shell cloning (if that is possible)..............but i am not a zealot and i do not have the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies ...........i do not have the right to demand people make informed and intelligent choices ..............otherwise i would make sure people hold valid university degrees to use the internet or pass a competency test ...........
 

ELGIN LEE BAKER (51)
Saturday August 23, 2008, 12:56 pm
HEY DID ANYONE ELSE JUST SEE THE NUMBER OF COMMENTS DROP ON THIS THREAD.............
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 12:22 am
If one buys an embryo and has a successful pregnancy and birth - the resultant child will NEVER be ones biological offspring - no matter how much bonding goes on during gestation. It will be no different than adopting an orphan or the result of an unwanted pregnancy etc etc etc. If one can make a difference in the life of an allready born child - that is where one should go.

With IVF at least one (if not both) donor/s is/are the biological parent/s (that's what it started out to be anyway) but this current way, neither of them are. Then the trouble started with women offering (for a fee) to be surrogate mothers - with some disaterous results - they refused to hand over the baby after birth.

While people are chasing the "giving birth at all costs" dream, there are millions of children languishing in orphanages around the world with noone to care for them, love them, give them a future etc etc etc....... I feel it is selfish and self-serving .... BUT GOOD BUSINESS WITH HUGE PROFITS....
and I don't need a special university degree or competence test to spot that
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 2:05 am
Elgin - did you refer to me?
 

Lee D (5)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 2:06 am
International Trade of Human Embryos on the Internet - Is This Ethical, Legal? Before answering the question, we must fist define the words "ethical" and "legal", and how they are applied to the specifics.Ethical is defined as "the treatng of morals; in accordance with right princples .... " The word "morals" pertains to character and behavior from the point of view of right or wrong. That brings to fore the question of whether we are speaking of relgious or legal morals. If we are speaking of religious morals then pursuant to the First ?amendment of the Constitution of the United States, Congress is legally "prohibited from,passing any laws respecting an establishment of religion." Religious morals are "an establishment of religion".

Religious morals are confined to the Church, the Mosque, the Temple.Every faith is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution the "free exercise" of that faith. Therefore th answer to the queston lies in the the assessment of whether the trade of embryos ove the Internet is bound by religious restrictions. I think not, but, Article I, Secton 8 of the Constitution of the Unied States provides that "Congress shall have the power ..... to reglate commerce with foreign nations and among the several States .... ," and therefore has the power to regulate, or even prohibit the
"trade of human embryos" on the Internet.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 2:10 am
As are as I see it - people who are consider themselves as "liberals" are actually the ones who make it possible for, our society to degrade progressingly. They just do not take a stand. Wishi-washi opinions --- Sure, some won't like hearing a "No"..but anyhow this is not the point - we can not stop this procedure anymore.
I myself are too old (mercifully) to live through all the implications - I don't like this Brave New World (Elgin you might want to re-read in depth). Maybe then my old fashioned European Old World Thinking is my handicap here
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 2:15 am


AND ONE MORE THING - (this relly irks me) THIS IS NOT ONLY ABOUT THE USA. (for once)

PLEASE KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN GLOBALLY
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 10:26 am
Well there is only ONE person, from what I see who is talking American laws.

And I personally am not a liberal. I am an equalist, so being fair and equal to all humans. I think this is a safe, ethical way for those who WISH to do this, to do it, so they can experience the gift of holding a child in their body, birthing and experiencing 3AM feedings and crappy diapers.

I wouldn't give up my experiences for the world and would love for all humans who wish to have a child naturally to have one or as many as they feel is right for them. And this is a way for them to be able to do it.

What irks me is how easily it is for people to push their OWN belief system and ethics upon people, telling them what is right and what is wrong. That irks me. I as an adult, being of sound mind, able to make my own decisions and all....
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 10:41 am
I think you misunderstood - I am not judging anyone - the ones who do or will or did - are welcome to it - like I said the train left the station, there is no stopping.
I would never consider it - for myself - so be it.
I am glad you expirence the joy of motherhood.

In fact Botyfltiger I did not even talk about you or to you with this comment ----

The IRKING is to be applied to people of the US only responding or leaving comments - I would like to have an Internatinal opinion about this. This is about the world and humanity afterall - not about a individual in Ohio etc.. This affects humanity - at least I see it like that.

Nuclar energy can be used for beneficial use, so can radiation - both are used - for war and destruction. Every thing and even this, a blessing in disguise, has in my opinion a double face.
 

Angela Rhodes (127)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 10:52 am
ELGIN STOP TROLLING THE DISCUSSION, WE'VE GOT THE MESSAGE YOU ARE AN ATHEIST, SO WHAT???
 

Angela Rhodes (127)
Sunday August 24, 2008, 11:02 am
We live in selfish society where people see something and want it NOW no matter what the cost, this is wrong!!! If we stoop to buying babies it is unethical and a result of another persons greed and selfishness!!!
 

ELGIN LEE BAKER (51)
Monday August 25, 2008, 2:43 pm
PLEASE ANGELA...............AVOID MAKING DEFAMING AND FALSE SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS TOWARD ME................

BUT ON A POSITIVE NOTE TO YOU ...........HOW VERY SHIRLEY VALENTINE OF YA TO LEAVE THE UK FOR GREECE ...............
 

ELGIN LEE BAKER (51)
Monday August 25, 2008, 3:25 pm
FIRST let me say i am not the first person that brings ideas of faith or lack there of into this thread .........I THOUGHT SINCE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT WHY SHOULDNT I THROW MY BELIEF SYSTEM IN .........if ya all dont want me flaunting my belief system ..........i am fine with that as long as others will be called on it when god is brought into the conversation .............

NOW ISABELLA ........I ONLY WAS DIRECTING A PORTION OF MY COMMENT TOWARD YOU AND I AM SO SORRY FOR ANY CONFUSION .......THOSE BITS THAT WERE DIRECTED TOWARD YOU AND I WISHED YOU TO EXPAND ON FURTHER WERE AS FOLLOWS ...........
"the donors ...........please show me a clear example of abuse thus so far ..........

i do not understand this if you could expand on this" the potential child eventually evolving from it - AND Society""

THOSE TWO BITS THERE .............

then again i do say "i do not see how this practice here would be linked to the practice in the novel ????????????? "

which has not been explained to me how this practice and the one in the book are linked besides that they both are involve non traditional means to produce children ............

I AM A PROGRESSIVE OR IF ONE LIKES A LIBERAL ................I TAKE QUITE A FEW STANDS ..........and i would say the conservative mind set is probably at the forefront of humanities problems ...........but that is my opinion .................i live here in germany and i base my opinion on this on article 16 of the universal declaration of human rights ....Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
.......and well as Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

so my view i would say is beyond the scope of the united states of america ................but when faced with data that is based in the united states of america i can and will place the laws of that nation onto the discussion due to fulling knowing how to work within that legal system ..........GIVE ME TWO YEARS AND I WILL BE ABLE TO WORK WITH IN THE EU AND WITH A FOCUS ON BELALUX ............


 

Past Member (0)
Monday August 25, 2008, 5:01 pm
You cannot currently send a star to ELGIN LEE because you have done so within the last week.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 26, 2008, 7:11 am
Elgin -

First off - as the owner of this thread - PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ANY AND I MEAN ANY PERSONAL DATA INFO OR SUCH TAKEN FROM MEMBERS PROFILES AND USE THEM FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT OR INTIMITATION. THERE SHOULD EVEN BE A FEW THINGS UNTOUCHABLE TO YOU.
As you are living in Germany try to learn the culture as well - not only the language - ....

Now as to abuse of the Donor ----
Possible situations (I have elaborated on these further up, but anyhow) -
Actually on second thought why don't you read the link I had already provided:
Embryo Adoption, Stem Cell Research, Partial Birth Abortion Oh My: Breaking News From DITM
you will find it before your first post....
There is also plenty there about other countries - NON USA
and how they are handling this issue at the moment. Read also through the comments.

As to the freedom of choice and your right to persue your own happiness - I am all for it.

As to all the rest of your questions - why don't you answer some of my points of discussion first ----- and Brave New World does it not advertise the persuit of happiness on earth? Read my Blog Elgin, before you pick on members.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Tuesday August 26, 2008, 7:40 am
Abuse???? What would you call what the couple in UK did? They left their IVF twin girls behind at the hospital because they wanted boys. I'm not sure if one or the other or both of them were the donor/s (the story didn't say) - but I would classify that as abuse. Today's liberal "ANYTHING GOES" system is dangerous to say the least. And that is My opinion whith which NOONE ELSE has to agree or subscribe to.

And about bringing God into the conversation - it is MY RIGHT to do so as long as I do NOT make derogatory remarks about anyone else's belief system.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 26, 2008, 10:57 am
Marena - "...liberal "ANYTHING GOES" system is dangerous to say the least.." is exactly what I am saying as well.
Anything goes - if you can pay for it - have it. It reduces beautiful, special things or beings to commodities.
Doesn't it surprise you that nobody even got bothered about the term: "Transfer of Ownership" -
so I guess the result is "owned" as well to be done with as pleased???

As morals and ethics go - they have NOTHING to do with religion - but they can also can have to do everything with religion or faith. Me I am my own believe person - maybe spiritualist.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Tuesday August 26, 2008, 8:59 pm
Yes, the fact that everyone seems to ignore that term "Transfer of Ownership" did indeed surprise me. Do people "OWN" their offspring? If they don't, then they can't "OWN" somebody else's embryo just because the purchased it like a head of lettuce from the supermarket.

What a confusing world this is.
 

Sa R (51)
Sunday September 7, 2008, 1:37 pm
Am thinking of all the babies and children, all over the world, waiting to be adopted, waiting to have a home, parents, family and a chance for a "normal" life. And instead people choose such means? How terribly terribly sad.
Next, I guess, they'll be purchased through EBay or maybe by bidding!!!
 

Monica Berenbroick (0)
Sunday November 23, 2008, 12:08 am
I am a women that used an embryo adoption agency and could not have been happier, the biological mom and dad selected us to have their remaining 5 embryos, and we could not be happier. We were totally on board for adoption, but the legal work, home studies, cost, and wait time, made us very sad. But embryo adoption is just one step closer to you then regular adoption. It is a beautiful and amazing gift that we received. It did cost $, but it was 1/10th the cost of adoption which is about $20,000 for a foreign orphaned child and about $30,000 to $40,000 for a US child, egg donor, or IVF. We do not mind paying for the embryo's, because it is paying the women that is organizing everything for us, it takes her a lot of time, emails, calls and faxes to coordinate. Just like paying a adoption center. I don't understand why everyone is upset. This does not effect you, unless you infertile, you have no idea the pain inferitily causes. So I am more then happy to pay, adopt and transfer these embryos that would have just sat frozen somewhere and then discarded after 7 years. We get to have child because of someone caring enough and loving enough to give us their embryos.
 
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