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Howard Zinn on Palestine: "[T]He Advance of "Civilization" Involved What We Would Today Call "Ethnic Cleansing."


World  (tags: palestine, israel, usa, u.s., middle-east, troops, war, military, conflict, HumanRights, humanrights, 'HUMANRIGHTS!', Refugees&Relief, Refugees&Relief, genocide, ethnic cleansing, invasion, occupation, oppression, zionism, colonialism, apartheid )

Simon
- 3392 days ago - endtheoccupationblog.blogspot.com
Read here to find out how you can work against the modern day ethnic cleansing that is made possible by the military, political & economic support the United States continues to give to Israel....



   

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Comments

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday February 1, 2010, 7:38 pm

Thank you, Simon.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Monday February 1, 2010, 7:50 pm
You're very welcome, Just Carole! : )
 

Elsa ED (231)
Monday February 1, 2010, 8:59 pm
We lost a very good man.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Monday February 1, 2010, 9:00 pm
Yeah : (
 

Simon Wood (207)
Monday February 1, 2010, 9:02 pm
But Howard Zinn's legacy continues: in his books and other writings, in his recorded speeches, and in the knowledge and spirit of compassion and rebellion against oppression, that he passed on to all of us who learned from him! : )
 

Yvonne White (229)
Monday February 1, 2010, 9:57 pm
Zinn was great: "Agitate!"
 

TERRANCE N (65)
Monday February 1, 2010, 10:08 pm
Wow, This is a wonderful tribute Simon. Who better to dedicate our fight against Israeli apartheid than Howard Zinn. I must get his book, "A peoples history of the United States" and watch his movie "The people speak". Thanks Simon.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Monday February 1, 2010, 10:24 pm
: ) - smile to Yvonne and the dog with you ; )

Hi Terrance : ) I found the Howard Zinn article by visiting the webpage you recommended to me ; ) -

http://www.endtheoccupation.org

Ah, yes, I have read "A People's History of the United States", and I learnt alot of history that I didn't learn in any capitalist mainstream history books or capitalist mainstream history documentaries. E.g. if I remember correctly, Seattle was taken over in a people's uprising in the 1800s!

Oh, and Christopher Colombus was a fascist-style leader who got his European soldiers to carry out massacres and tortures of Indigenous people to get gold!

By the way, I just learnt from Howard Zinn (in his article that the above article links to), that Albert Einstein, while a Jew who believed in God, was against the creation of the colonial apartheid nation state of Israel that now exists! : )
 

Tim Redfern (581)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 4:02 am
An eerie thing has happened to me regarding
the late Professor Dr. Zinn:
I recently joined "The Progressive Book Club",
and the 1st book I purchased from them was
"A People's History of The United States",
which is an outstanding read, and I'm less than 200 pages
into it.
Anyway, I put it in a desk drawer while I finished reading
a book by Jack Kerouac. I pulled "People's History" out of the
desk drawer when I was ready to read it, and the cover tore
as I did,. Professor Dr. Zinn died perhaps 3 hours later that evening, as I
inderstand it.
You can't make this stuff up, folks.
Jill & I both got cold chills when we found out later that evening that the
great man had passed.
He will truly be missed.

btw, Simon, Einstein was offered the Presidency of Israel
and turned it down for the reasons you mentioned.

Thanks.
noted w/sadness.
 

Gorgeous H (142)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 6:14 am
A great loss :(
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 6:25 am
Thank you Simon.

Adelante compa~nero, comentare mas despues...
 

myna lee j (1)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 6:00 pm
why can't more people think like him?
 

Elisa M (93)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 6:51 pm

The Great Howard Zinn ~ R.I.P.

Thank you for posting this Simon :)
 

Simon Wood (207)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 8:24 pm
Pastor Tim, please be more careful when you take books out of drawers, or you might hurt more authors : P Be extra careful with Noam Chomsky's books, yeah? He is old, but I still want to read lots more from him! : )
 

Simon Wood (207)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 8:27 pm
Thankyou for the information about Einstein, Pastor Tim : )

And good on you for reading "A People's History of the United States"! : )
 

Simon Wood (207)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 8:50 pm
Hi AniTa, Luisa, mynalee and Elisa : )

Thankyou for noting and writing these positive comments here! : )
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 9:12 pm
mynalee j. (0)
Tuesday February 2, 2010, 6:00 pm
why can't more people think like him?

We can try, but of course, that's why he was so extraordinary.

Good on you, Simon. Thank you.
 

Marty H (119)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 12:24 am
Thanks Simon! He was a wise man!
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 1:28 am
When a great historian,who dared to tell the truth about Israel, passes away then all those who are looking for the truth feel sad and deeply hurt. This man was a great historian ,wise man and a brave human being. WE ALL lost a great man. GOD bless his soul.
 

Tim Redfern (581)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 3:53 am
Simon,
I would hate to think that my accident with
"People's Hiistory" had anything to do with
Professor Dr. Zinn's demise.
Let's just say I'm being extra-careful with my other volumes,
especially those by Stephen King.
Unfortunately, it's about 41 years too late for Mr. Kerouac.
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 4:05 am


 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 4:09 am
Simon, I posted Howard Zinn's bibliography and a comment but apparantly I didn't . [smile]

I will come back later to finish the work I deleted before posting. Yeeezzzzzzz ...after I have a shot of caffeine...

In the meantime, adelante compa~nero...
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 5:13 am


Howard Zinn, Historian who Challenged Status Quo
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:27 am
Yeah, Timmy: Wood is correct this time. You shouldn't keep books in a drawer, even the ones written by Chomski. Try using bookshelves: I do it for a very long time and didn't torn a single book.

Speaking on the topic: Coming of both civilization and barbarism often were and are accompanied by ethnic cleansing. Communists expelling Germans after WWII, Albanians expelling Serbs, Hamas planning to genocide Israelis - you can see that ethnic cleansing is not committed exclusively by the carriers of Civilization.

And finally, where do you find Zinn speaking about Arab-Israeli conflict? I could find plenty of references about Iraq and Viet Nam, but not Palestine. Any hints?

 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:46 am


Roman wrote:
"...Hamas planning to genocide Israelis ..."
With all due respect Roman, I think it's the other way around. In other words, since 1940 the Israeli State has displayed with it's actions and policies and arduous process towards the dissemination of Palestinians.

Here is a little reality check for you Roman.
Number of Israelis and Palestinians killed since 1900
Most Recent Data: November 16-30, 2009 Israelis Killed Palestinians Killed
This Period:-- 0---- 0
To Date:- 1078 Israelis-----6559 Palestinians
Please Note: The above numbers do not include Palestinian suicide bombers (or other attackers) nor do they include Palestinians targeted for assassination, though bystanders killed during these assassinations are counted. However, IDF soldiers killed during incursions into Palestinian lands are counted.

Please don't accuse me of being Anti-Semitic for this is not the case, besides it's a worn out argument and frankly boring. Actions speak louder then words, and Israel's actions towards Palestinians have been less then stellar to put is mildly, since the creation of the Palestinian State in 1948.

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 9:29 am
Luisa, your numbers incomplete: you don't show the number of Jews killed by Arabs before creation of Israel. Massacre of the Hebron Jews in 1929, for example, completely unprovoked. Or, are you counting JEws killed before Israel creation as Palestinians?

The latest number of 6,559 should be separated to include the number of combatants, civilian Arab victims of Arab friendly fire, civilians willingly serving as human shields, to start with. Do the same with the number of murdered Israelis, and then we could compare apples to apples.

When you next time hear Israeli Arab MK coming on Israel's taxpayer money to come to America and blame Israel for pretty much everything happening in the Arab world, please re-evaluate your comment about "dissemination of Palestinians".

BTW, don't forget that Israelis (Jews and Arabs alike) are no less Palestinians than Arabs living outside of Israel in Palestine, including Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan.
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 9:39 am
Roman, obviously you did not click on the links I provided for more complete information.

You mean US dollars supporting Israel don't you.

Show me how much Israeli Arab MK taxpayer money comes to America.

Then compare these figures with US Aid to Israel then let's see where we stand.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 12:22 pm
Luisa, I did look at the numbers provided by the Palestinian advocacy organization Btselem and saw obviously incorrect methodology. You didn't address this issue yet.

I don't know how much Israeli Arab MK spends on their trips. They travel a lot, to various countries, including the ones officially at war with Israel, like Syria and Lebanon. When Iraqi MK visited Israel, he was almost executed back home. Same happens to brave Lebanese and Egyptian musicians, journalists, etc who dare to challenge hard-liners at home.

If you want to talk US Aid to Israel - we can. For 2.7B a year US could force Israel to withdraw from competing in arms sales to China or India worth 10-20B, which happened several times already. US Aid to Israel is spent on the equipment manufactured in The States, so that aid gives jobs to Americans, not to Israelis.

I see much more value coming in return to 2.7B given to Israel, that to 20-30B given to Arab and Muslim countries: Pakistan - 14B, Egypt - 3B, etc. What does the States get, except for "Death to America" on any outdoor activity?

BTW, if you see my posts turned to Past Member, that means that care2 deleted my account, as they often do with people who don't share Communist or Anti-Israeli views. Sorry for the possible inconvenience.

 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 2:24 pm
Roman G wrote: "Yeah, Timmy: Wood is correct this time. You shouldn't keep books in a drawer, even the ones written by Chomski. Try using bookshelves: I do it for a very long time and didn't torn a single book."

Don't call me "Wood". That is disrespectful. It is is standard respectful talk to call me "Simon", "Simon Wood" or "Mr Wood".

I didn't say that Pastor Tim "shouldn't keep books in a drawer". I was making a joke about being careful with book covers.

"Should" and "shouldn't" are subjective - they values, not facts - they cannot be proven. They are like a way to say "I like this" and "I don't like that", but falsely elevated to the status of "absolute" judgements upon people, as if the speaker "is a god, and everyone else who disagrees is incorrect".

Roman G wrote: "Speaking on the topic: Coming of both civilization and barbarism often were and are accompanied by ethnic cleansing. Communists expelling Germans after WWII, Albanians expelling Serbs, Hamas planning to genocide Israelis - you can see that ethnic cleansing is not committed exclusively by the carriers of Civilization."

Roman G's use of the word "Civilization" is subjective and prejudiced - and appears to imply "goodness". The objective meaning of the word "civilization" is "settled society, particularly in cities". With that meaning, "civilization" includes those who Roman G calls "Communists", Albanians and Hamas, and only excludes nomadic people ("barbarians"), such as those who lived on some of the borders of the Roman Empire, and who the Romans wanted to attack, slaughter, terrorise and colonise.

As for Roman G's words: "Communists expelling Germans after WWII". That is weird. First of all, the USSR was not "Communist". Commmunism (e.g. according to Marx) means "a system of democratic communes in cooperation with each other, with no overarching state". Therefore, the USSR was very different from "communist", but is more correctly termed a "stalinist bureaucratic totalitarian dictatorship" (as Trotskyist Marxists say), or an "oligarchical collectivist system" (as George Orwell wrote).

The ruling party in the USSR called the USSR "socialist" (never "communist"). The label "socialist" was a lie too (because socialism means: "society controlling the means of production, distribution and exchange" - i.e. a profoundly democratic system, in which everyone in society has an equal say in managing the economy, with a maximum of direct democracy).

The ruling party itself called itself a "communist party", meaning that it aimed to create commumism. However, while it did ensure some human rights for everyone (such as health care and education), the ruling party's actions also involved a hoarding of significant wealth and power and a reduction of democracy: moving away from, or avoiding, socialism and communism.

Anyway, the Germans who were moved out of Eastern Europe (Poland, etc.) were nazis who had invaded and settled in Eastern Europe (against the 4th Geneva Convention) in the 1930s and 1940s. Those nazis were the ones who did ethnic cleansing, killing "subhuman Slavs" (Eastern Europeans) and stealing the homes and farms, etc., of Eastern Europeans. The Eastern European regimes were simply restoring justice, ending Hitler's "Lebensraum" policy and giving those stolen homes and farms, etc., back to the Eastern Europeans who'd lost them to the genocidal nazi invasion a few years before.

As for Hamas (the Palestininian Resistance), well, they don't have any plans to "genocide" Israelis. They are merely Indigenous Palestinians who want to get their land back, and end the Israeli apartheid colonial regime.

Roman G wrote: "And finally, where do you find Zinn speaking about Arab-Israeli conflict? I could find plenty of references about Iraq and Viet Nam, but not Palestine. Any hints?"

Hints? Howard Zinn's writing about Israel and Palestine is on the page! -

< http://endtheoccupationblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/howard-zinn-on-palestine-advance-of.html >

...and the full version of what Howard Zinn wrote is available by clicking on the link at the top of that passage of writing. : P It takes us here:

< http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/HowardZinn-Thepoisonsofnationalism >
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 3:39 pm
Roman G wrote::"BTW, if you see my posts turned to Past Member, that means that care2 deleted my account, as they often do with people who don't share Communist or Anti-Israeli views. Sorry for the possible inconvenience."

Roman, I hardly believe C2 will delete your posts or ban you on the basis of what I've read thus far.

But when I read you're slur against Palestinians earlier on, I couldn't help but respond.

From my perspective, I am not anti-Semitic I simply do not like the way Israel conducts itself in the Middle East and their treatment of the Palestinian people for longer then many on this forum have been alive.

Not only do I not like it, I intend to speak out against Israel until my last breadth.

You are entitled to espouse and defend your beliefs as I am to defend mine.

Simple.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 5:10 pm
Hi again Pastor Tim : ) I was joking about the book ; )
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 5:14 pm
Thankyou for that link, Luisa: "Howard Zinn, Historian who Challenged Status Quo" : ) - by the way, how did you do the html code for that?
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 5:48 pm


I will PM you in a few about the code --- I hadn't used html in a long time, after a bit, it's all coming back. Hip hip hurray...
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 5:54 pm
Roman G wrote: "Luisa, your numbers incomplete: you don't show the number of Jews killed by Arabs before creation of Israel."

The stats of the conflict between Israel and the Indigenous people of the Middle East are: about 7,000 Israelis killed by the Indigenous people since 1948, and more than 70,000 Indigenous Middle Eastern people killed by Israel. That is about a 10x death rate. I.e. it is not a war, it is a one-sided massacre.

Roman G wrote: "Massacre of the Hebron Jews in 1929, for example, completely unprovoked. Or, are you counting JEws killed before Israel creation as Palestinians?"

Huh? What about the zionist jewish terrorist organisations, such as Irgun and the Stern Gang? They killed alot of people themselves.

Roman G wrote: "The latest number of 6,559 should be separated to include the number of combatants, civilian Arab victims of Arab friendly fire, civilians willingly serving as human shields, to start with. Do the same with the number of murdered Israelis, and then we could compare apples to apples."

70,000 to 7,000. It's about a 10 to 1 ratio.

However, in recent years, Israel killed 1,400 people (most of the civilians, including 300 or 400 children) in the Israeli massacre in Palestine's Gaza Strip, and only 13 Israelis were killed, of whom only 3 were civilians, and some of the 10 soldiers were killed by friendly fire.

I.e. that is a 100 to 1 ratio. Supporters of Israel are supporting MASSACRES, BRUTAL SIEGES and BRUTAL OCCUPATIONS!!!

Roman G wrote: 'When you next time hear Israeli Arab MK coming on Israel's taxpayer money to come to America and blame Israel for pretty much everything happening in the Arab world, please re-evaluate your comment about "dissemination of Palestinians".'

Huh? I have never heard of such politicians.

Most non-jews in Israel/Palestine are not "Arabs". The Arab-Muslim empire was not a mass-migration, it was only a movement of a few people, who converted Indigenous people to Islam, and joined regions together into large nations or empires. Most of the people in the Middle East outside of Arabia are not "Arab". They are Indigenous people, who were there for thousands of years, including in Palestine - the ancestors of today's Indigenous Palestinians were in Israel/Palestine at least as long as jewish people were there.

And in fact, the Jewish people's own religious books claim that the Palestinian people were there first, and that jewish people invaded and committed genocide "at the command of God". (A ridiculous excuse for genocide, but that is what they claimed!) However, archaeologists and other scientists have found that the jews and non-jews of Palestine are all Canaanites, some of whom converted to judaism, and some of whom chose other religions - and they lived side-by-side from the ancient times when judaism was founded.

The INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS who are in Israel's parliament are a MINORITY (and say little against Israel), despite the fact that most people in Israel/Palestine are INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS. This is because Israel does not allow most INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS to vote.

INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS who are citizens of Israel pay taxes just as colonial Israeli citizens do. So why even mention that Israel's tax system supports INDIGENOUS PALESTINIAN politicians? Furthermore, INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS are exploited more by Israel's capitalist system than colonial Israeli citizens - so they are contributing MORE than their fair share!!! This fact debunks Roman G's ridiculous insinuation!!!

Roman G wrote: "BTW, don't forget that Israelis (Jews and Arabs alike) are no less Palestinians than Arabs living outside of Israel in Palestine, including Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan."

As I said above, most non-jews in Israel/Palestine are not "Arabs". They are Indigenous Palestinians who chose not to follow the jewish religion.

As for Israeli jews, most are colonists from Europe and North America, etc.. Most of them are not Indigenous to Israel/Palestine. Those colonists only came within the last few decades, and used violence to terrorise the Indigenous Palestinian people into leaving, and those colonists stole the Indigenous Palestinian people's farmland, towns, villages, homes (or demolished them to build there), etc..

There is a huge difference between Indigenous Palestinians (who Israeli colonists terrorised into fleeing as refugees since around 1947) and jews whose families lived in other parts of the world for hundreds of years.

The Indigenous Palestinians were forced out of their homes, schools, workplaces, farms, villages and towns in Israel/Palestine, by the terrorist violence of Israeli colonists within the past few decades, in living memory, and are living as refugees, while Israel is refusing to allow them to return.

The jews outside of Israel were not kicked out of Israel/Palestine in living memory (if they were kicked out at all, it was only their ANCESTORS who were kicked out HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO). And the way that those jews have moved back to Israel/Palestine has been as conquerers and terorrists who used violence to force the Indigenous people to flee, because those jews who came were not willing to buy land and homes - they stole land and homes from the Indigenous people instead.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:29 pm
Roman G wrote: "Luisa, I did look at the numbers provided by the Palestinian advocacy organization Btselem and saw obviously incorrect methodology. You didn't address this issue yet."

Huh? I don't know what you are talking about.

Anyway, as I said above: The stats of the conflict between Israel and the Indigenous people of the Middle East are: about 7,000 Israelis killed by the Indigenous people since 1948, and more than 70,000 Indigenous Middle Eastern people killed by Israel. That is about a 10x death rate. I.e. it is not a war, it is a one-sided massacre.

However, in recent years, Israel killed 1,400 people (most of the civilians, including 300 or 400 children) in the Israeli massacre in Palestine's Gaza Strip, and only 13 Israelis were killed, of whom only 3 were civilians, and some of the 10 soldiers were killed by friendly fire.

I.e. that is a 100 to 1 ratio. Supporters of Israel are supporting MASSACRES, BRUTAL SIEGES and BRUTAL OCCUPATIONS!!!

Roman G wrote: "I don't know how much Israeli Arab MK spends on their trips. They travel a lot, to various countries, including the ones officially at war with Israel, like Syria and Lebanon. When Iraqi MK visited Israel, he was almost executed back home. Same happens to brave Lebanese and Egyptian musicians, journalists, etc who dare to challenge hard-liners at home."

The regimes in Lebanon, and especially in Egypt and Iraq, are U.S.-supported regimes that are friendly to Israel - but those regimes oppress their own people.

Roman G wrote: "If you want to talk US Aid to Israel - we can. For 2.7B a year US could force Israel to withdraw from competing in arms sales to China or India worth 10-20B, which happened several times already."

You have not shown any evidence for that. First of all, annual U.S. military aid to Israel is U.S.$3-4 billion - NOT U.S.$2.75 billion. Secondly, if Israel chose to do that, it would be because Israel benefits more from U.S. support in other ways (e.g. U.S. support against U.N. votes condemning Israel - votes that would stop Israel's oppression of the Indigenous people of Palestine), compared with than it would gain by getting those contracts.

And please be aware, a $10 billion contract won't result in $10 billion PROFIT. :P Only a fraction of the $10 billion is profit! : P The rest of the $10 billion would be COSTS.

Roman G wrote: "US Aid to Israel is spent on the equipment manufactured in The States, so that aid gives jobs to Americans, not to Israelis."

That aid benefits both Israel's oppressive regime, and U.S. military corporations. If Israel doesn't want that aid, it can reject that military aid, and so it will have much less military equipment, and have a much weaker military.

Roman G wrote: "I see much more value coming in return to 2.7B given to Israel, that to 20-30B given to Arab and Muslim countries: Pakistan - 14B, Egypt - 3B, etc. What does the States get, except for "Death to America" on any outdoor activity?"

As I said, it is U.S.$3-4 BILLION MILITARY AID PER YEAR to Israel. Not only "U.S.$2.7 billion".

All of that military aid benefits U.S. military corporations. Those U.S. military corporations don't show any care for the U.S. people. They are apparently willing to accept the hatred and danger that U.S. military aid to oppressive regimes causes to the U.S. people. That military aid also ties those oppressive regimes to buying further arms from the U.S. military corporations, rather than from Russia, China, France, the U.K., etc..

That U.S. military aid also benefits U.S. corporations in general, by supporting regimes that oppress their own people, which enables the establishment of U.S. military bases (which means more arms sales), and enables exploitative trade deals with the USA, and enables corporations to exploit the workers and resources of the countries under those oppressive regimes.

It also serves global strategic purposes for the larger goals of U.S. domination of the world (building U.S. military bases and strengthening U.S. allies to threaten U.S. rivals, such as Russia, China, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.). And that domination benefits U.S. corporations, too (by eliminating economic competition, etc.).

Roman G wrote: "BTW, if you see my posts turned to Past Member, that means that care2 deleted my account, as they often do with people who don't share Communist or Anti-Israeli views. Sorry for the possible inconvenience."

What a complete and utter lie!!! In fact, Care2 managers have shown a clear bias in favour of capitalism, imperialism, the USA and Israel (and supporters of those politics), and against the people and ideas of socialism, communism, anarchism, and the human rights of those who suffer under capitalism, imperialism, the USA and Israel.

If "Roman G" gets banned, it would only be if Roman G makes flagrant and blatant personal attacks that Care2 management cannot ignore, e.g. the personal attack that "Roman G" wrote against Pastor Tim under my 'Washington Post "Knocks" the Bolivarian Revolution'
article:

http://www.care2.com/news/member/860103097/1376034
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:31 pm
Thankyou Luisa, compa : )
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:34 pm
So, you got the code?

Easy as pie.

I see why Roman is concerned now. The trick is to not lose emotional control or let some one else control you your emotions.

Elementary my Dr. Watson.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:39 pm
Good on you Locan, Marty, Abdessalam, Pastor Tim and Luisa for posting pro-human-rights comments here! : )
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:43 pm
I recommend this article to everyone : )
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:47 pm
Hi Luisa : ) I got the code from your message, and I just tried it above, and as you can see, it works!

Muchas gracias mi compa maravillosa! : )
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:50 pm
Yes. I noticed. We'll have to graduate to posting small images no?

For that I'm going to have to *break the code* because I've been trying and no cigar.

But hey, that's a lot of fun too.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 6:59 pm
Hi Luisa : ) Wow, that is ambitious! : O
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 7:18 pm


Hey, check this out. As a newbe I'm not getting too many hits. Tell me what you think? And please comment by all means.
GEORGE “W” BUSH: THE LEGACY OF AN AMERICAN “CALIGULA”
Ask any American, or, in fact prettymuch anyone around the world what President Obama's biggest failing is and they will always say the same thing. Bush is out of prison, proof Obama is a coward or part of the same gang.

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 3, 2010, 9:41 pm
Simon, you list numbers of Arab victims exceeding the numbers coming from Arab-advocacy organization by ten times and still expect that someone will believe them. I won't argue with you on that one, LOL. With all due respect.

Irgun and other Jewish militias were created as a self-defense measures and in response to attrocities, committed by the Arabs against Jews - the Indigenous Palestinians. There were Arab militias too, much more active and vicious.

May be you don't realize, Simon, but the military complex in the States employs American citizen, who get nice salaries. Your opinion matches those on extreme right in Israel, who suggest stop using US Aid as being detrimental to Israel economy. Those costs that you mentioned would go toward salaries of workers in Israel, and not in the States. Do you really want to lose another manufacturing sector, Simon? Or, as Australian, you simply don't care?

Official and verifiable amount of US Aid given to Israel is 2.7B/year. Please don't bring me staff from Arab-PR sources, I already read 1001 nights and BTW liked it a lot.

I challenge you, or Care2 moderators, to show a post written by Birdie P that contained a single insult. Still, the Birdie's account was terminated and not just suspended. Much more serious violators, using racial slur and insults, were suspended, but Birdie didn't do any of that. If Biridie was terminated for no reason, I don't care if I will be terminated too. At least, I will be in a good company.

I know Tim for a long time, and disputed him a lot. Tim knows how to answer me without your help, if he wants to. I never saw YOU showing any sensitivity to insults directed to people with different political views than yours. I understand that you are pro-Communism and therefore not surprised of your attitude, but try to think if that would be nice to be objective.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Thursday February 4, 2010, 5:23 am
Roman G wrote: "Simon, you list numbers of Arab victims exceeding the numbers coming from Arab-advocacy organization by ten times and still expect that someone will believe them. I won't argue with you on that one, LOL. With all due respect."

You have shown yourself to have made a mistake. I get the last laugh. The numbers that Luisa gave were ONLY Palestinian civilians who Israel killed, NOT the numbers of ALL Indigenous Middle Easterners killed by Israel. Clearly you didn't pay attention.

Anyway, my numbers come from a library book, from a series that is well-respected and stocked in many libraries, as well as sold in many bookshops, including university bookshops: the "FOR BEGINNERS"/"INTRODUCTION TO" series. The stats were from "The Arab-Israeli Conflict For Beginners", which I read in 2003. I recommend you read it, because your knowledge shows that you haven't got past that beginner stage of knowledge about the conflict yet.

Roman G wrote: "Irgun and other Jewish militias were created as a self-defense measures and in response to attrocities, committed by the Arabs against Jews - the Indigenous Palestinians. There were Arab militias too, much more active and vicious."

You have no evidence for your claim that the "jewish zionist terrorist groups bombed the King David Hotel and massacred hundreds of people in a Palestinian village, etc., and that was for 'defence', not for their stated ZIONIST goal of using violence to create a jewish homeland by violently expelling Indigenous people." Besides which, EVEN if you did produce evidence for that (which I bet you won't), people from Europe and North America can't claim "self-defence" when they invade the Middle East. Invaders can't claim "self-defence". The very act of invasion is an act of aggression.

And NO, jews from Europe and North America are NOT Indigenous to Palestine - if they are Indigenous to anywhere, then they are Indigenous to EUROPE and NORTH AMERICA. Whereas, a few thousand jews, and millions of muslims and christians were Indigenous to Palestine/Israel and the neighbouring parts of the Middle East, and were victims of Israel's aggressive imperialist expansion.

Roman G wrote: "May be you don't realize, Simon, but the military complex in the States employs American citizen, who get nice salaries."

"Nice [salaries]" is a subjective term. Roman G hasn't proven, and can't prove, that those salaries are "nice". All workers are exploited by corporations, including those who work for military corporations. And those who work for military corporations can be realistically expected to suffer terrible workplace accidents. With those facts in mind, those are exploitative salaries, and, because labour unions in the USA are weak, so workers have few rights in the USA, then those salaries probably don't compensate workers adequately for the risks that they take.

The main beneficiaries of any business are the OWNERS of corporations - the SHAREHOLDERS, especially the MAJOR SHAREHOLDERS (the megarich people who own most of the shares).

Roman G wrote: "Your opinion matches those on extreme right in Israel, who suggest stop using US Aid as being detrimental to Israel economy."

I have never heard that before. : P But since I support the politics of equality, democracy and human rights for all people, Roman's argument of "bad due to coincidental similarity of one fact" does not prove anything.

Roman G wrote: "Those costs that you mentioned would go toward salaries of workers in Israel, and not in the States."

Only some of those costs would go towards workers in Israel. There are many costs, and where they go to depends on the details of the product. Do they go to mining corporations in Indonesia? To steel corporations in Italy? To rubber corporations in Brazil? To timber corporations in Africa?

Anyway, however much of the proceeds of products go to Israeli workers, the fact is that corporations exploit workers, and U.S. military aid and other support for Israel enables Israel to siege, occupy, oppress, murder and cause terrible suffering to millions of Indigenous Palestinian people. Therefore, all people who care about human rights, equality, peace and democracy want the USA to stop supporting Israel.

Roman G wrote: "Do you really want to lose another manufacturing sector, Simon? Or, as Australian, you simply don't care?"

How ridiculous! I am AGAINST Israeli apartheid, Israeli colonialism, Israeli military corporations, and U.S. military corporations!!! YES, they cause terrible suffering, and YES I want them to fall. Why even ask? I am not a megarich shareholder or an imperialist warmonger - of COURSE I want them to fall!!!

Roman G wrote: "Official and verifiable amount of US Aid given to Israel is 2.7B/year. Please don't bring me staff from Arab-PR sources, I already read 1001 nights and BTW liked it a lot."

The fact is that the USA gives U.S.$3-4 billion military aid each year to Israel, and the evidence shows that. The oppressor's information sources are not credible in supporting any arguments made by oppressors. However, the oppressed people's sources of information can be accurate. In my case, it is from a JEW: Noam Chomsky.

Roman G wrote: "I challenge you, or Care2 moderators, to show a post written by Birdie P that contained a single insult. Still, the Birdie's account was terminated and not just suspended."

I remember Birdie P violating the Care2 Code of Conduct. I don't care enough to bother searching for those violations (in fact, I might not even be able to find them, because I probably don't have them in my Care2 network messages).

Roman G wrote: "Much more serious violators, using racial slur and insults, were suspended, but Birdie didn't do any of that."

I am pretty sure that Birdie P DID do some of that.

Roman G wrote: "If Biridie was terminated for no reason, I don't care if I will be terminated too. At least, I will be in a good company."

Except that Birdie P violated the Care2 Code of Conduct. Roman G might call that "no reason", but that is the reason: the Care2 Code of Conduct is a reasonably healthy set of rules for conducting debates on the internet.

Roman G wrote: "I know Tim for a long time, and disputed him a lot. Tim knows how to answer me without your help, if he wants to."

Pastor Tim appreciates my help, and even someone doesn't appreciate my help, when a person makes personal attacks against them, then I reserve the right to expose that abusive behaviour.

Roman G wrote: "I never saw YOU showing any sensitivity to insults directed to people with different political views than yours."

Roman G is apparently very new here, and has no Care2 friends, so of course Roman G would not have noticed much at all in Care2, particularly things about one particular person. Whatever Roman G thought they saw or didn't see, the only person who knows all about ME is ME. : P And I know that I am compassionate towards all people.

However, this is once again, another of Roman G's personal attacks. Roman G, STICK TO THE TOPIC. DON'T MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Roman G wrote: "I understand that you are pro-Communism and therefore not surprised of your attitude, but try to think if that would be nice to be objective."

I am objective. I use the scientific approach to life (e.g. Marxism) - an objective appraoch. I don't make claims of "good", "bad", "should", "shouldn't", etc., and I have an attitude of defending oppressed people against oppression, with a motivation of compassion. Plus I get my information from non-capitalist sources, sources that are not controlled by the rich and powerful, not controlled by oppressors, because they are clearly serving the agenda of inequality, and so are not credible.

Roman G, please understand, I am not here to hate jews. I care for all people. However, I campaign against all oppression, that any people do, including the oppression that Australia does (Australia is the country where I was born and live).

And many of the people in Israel at this time are supporting and participating in oppression against other people. And that oppression is why I am campaigning against Israel. The fact that most of the people in Israel are jews is irrelevant. (This is the same as how the fact that most of the people in Australia are of European ancestry and have christian religion or culture is irrelevant to whether or not I campaign against the oppression that Australia is doing to people in the world.)

I am not campaigning against jews - I am campaigning against ISRAEL. And please remember, many of my favourite people were or are jews: Marx was a jew, Einstein was a jew, Trotsky was a jew (though I only like some of what Trotsky did), Emma Goldman was a jew, Howard Zinn was a jew, Abbie Hoffman was a jew, Noam Chomsky is a jew, etc., etc..

So please don't think that I am trying to insult jews or any other people. What I am doing is saying the truth, based on the evidence that I have seen, and with a motivation of compassion - and thus campaigning for the oppressed people of the world.

Also, I recognise that the imperialist, aggressive, oppressive, apartheid Israeli policy not only harms the Indigenous Palestinian people, but that policy also endangers Israelis themselves. And I recognise that equality and peace will benefit all people in Palestine/Israel and their neighbours. So I campaign for the 2-state solution, to benefit everyone.
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Thursday February 4, 2010, 5:50 am
Simon wrote:
"Also, I recognise that the imperialist, aggressive, oppressive, apartheid Israeli policy not only harms the Indigenous Palestinian people, but that policy also endangers Israelis themselves. And I recognise that equality and peace will benefit all people in Palestine/Israel and their neighbours. So I campaign for the 2-state solution, to benefit everyone."

Here, here. My sentiments exactly Simon.

Herein is the problem, the 2-state solution at least to date, is something either side does not want. So, where do they go from here?
 

Simon Wood (207)
Thursday February 4, 2010, 10:55 pm
Hi again, Luisa : )
You wrote:
"Herein is the problem, the 2-state solution at least to date, is something either side does not want. So, where do they go from here?"

Actually, according to Noam Chomsky and other non-zionist experts on the Middle East: the governments of Israel and the USA don't want the 2-state solution - they want peace with total Israeli domination. Whereas, Hamas and the rest of the world all support the 2-state solution.

Where do they go from here? Well, most of the people in Israel are not listening to reason, and are being unreasonable in not supporting peace with justice, not ending the brutal Israeli siege, occupation and oppression of the people of Palestine, and not allowing the people of Palestine to have their fair share of land with national sovereignty (the 2-state solution).

Therefore, we must use action to force the people of Israel to agree to the 2-state solution. This could involve educating the people of the USA to end U.S. military aid and other U.S. support for Israel - so that Israel's lack of military stength forces it to negotiate more fairly.... (I try to educate the people of the USA about Palestine and Israelfor this reason.)

Most of all, we can end the Israeli colonial apartheid regime by using a similar strategy to the one we used to end the apartheid regime in South Africa: building the BDS movement (Boycott, Divestment & Sanctions movement), in alliaqnce with the Palestinian anti-apartehid movement, until Israel agrees tobe reasonable, like the apartehid regime in South Africa did.
 

Tim Redfern (581)
Friday February 5, 2010, 12:37 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Simon because you have done so within the last week.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know you were joking about the book, Simon.
One of the things God has blessed me with
is a sense of humor.
I was jking about Stephen King as well.
If he wasn't killed by the van that mowed him down
10 years ago, a torn book cover isn't going to hurt him! :-)

Roman G. is correct.
I can respomd to him if I choose to,
which I don't, other than to say this:
"I didn't torn a single book", he wrote.
Roman, I compliment you on your fine command of the
English language. It is most laudable.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Friday February 5, 2010, 7:03 pm
Oh, please be kind to each other : )
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Friday February 5, 2010, 8:03 pm
Simon wrote:

"Actually, according to Noam Chomsky and other non-zionist experts on the Middle East: the governments of Israel and the USA don't want the 2-state solution - they want peace with total Israeli domination. Whereas, Hamas and the rest of the world all support the 2-state solution.

No argument there. US and Israel don't want the 2-state solution, this is obvious to the average bear.

However, the mantra in the US is that Hamas doesn't want the two state solution, and President Ahmadinejad has stated the want to bury the US. This, according to US propaganda fueled by Bibi Netanyahu and his cadre of war mongers. It is an open secret that Israel is poised to bomb Iran in the very near future because according to Israel, Ahmadinejad wants to destroy Israel so it's time to stop them.

Of course we all know Israel is a rogue State who refuses to allow nuclear inspections while they cry wolf about Iran. It's absolute madness.

And the dance goes on.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Friday February 5, 2010, 9:51 pm
Hi Luisa : )
You wrote: "However, the mantra in the US is that Hamas doesn't want the two state solution, and President Ahmadinejad has stated the want to bury the US."

I know the capitalist imperialist media propaganda pretends that Hamas doesn't want the two state solution. And so, I say: let's educate the people of the USA about Palestine and Israel - to counter the miseducation that they have gotten from the propaganda of the capitalist imperialist media.

Ahmedinajad is the elected president of Iran, not Palestine. And I have never heard that he "wants to bury the USA". Sure, some demonstrators in Iran say "death to the USA", but I have never heard of Ahmedinajad saying that - even on the capitalist TV stations in Australia, with all their anti-Iran propaganda.

I have heard the capitalist, imperialist media say that Ahmedinajad wants to "bury Israel". However, even this is a lie, without evidence, based on false and dishonest translations of Ahmedinajad's speeches. Yes, he,and many people in the Middle East want to end the Israeli colonial apartheid regime, and allow the Indigenous people of Palestine to return to their homes and lands that were stolen by Israel, and allow the Indigenous people of Palestine to get rid of the colony and renew Palestine, as a nation-state with voting rights for all adults there. BUt that is not the same as "burying Israel" (which implies burying all of the people of Israel), and it doesn't even require any violence, if the Israeli people agree to be reasonable and end their colony.

Anyway, like I said, let's educate the people of the USA about Palestine and Israel - to counter the miseducation that they have gotten from the propaganda of the capitalist imperialist media. ; )

Luisa wrote: "This, according to US propaganda fueled by Bibi Netanyahu and his cadre of war mongers. It is an open secret that Israel is poised to bomb Iran in the very near future because according to Israel, Ahmadinejad wants to destroy Israel so it's time to stop them."

I don't care if Iran destroys Israel. Israel is a colony on Palestinian land. I totally support decolonisation (including the decolonisation of Australia). Israel is not the people who live there. They can be part of a decolonised Palestinian state, alongside the Palestinian majority, when the Israeli colony disappears.

However, I don't believe that Iran would try that. Look at what they are up against if they try:

Another U.S. War? Obama Threatens China and Iran

The government of Iran is not crazy. The idea that they are crazy is more capitalist imperialist media propaganda. I recommend that you watch the documentary "Reel Bad Araba", to understand the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim propaganda campaign that has brainwashed the people of the USA and other countries that receive Hollywood films, U.S. TV shows, U.S. media, etc..

Iran is surrounded by the U.S. military machine on all sides, as you can see in the article above. Also, Iran is militarily weaker than the USA, and Iran is militarily weaker than Israel (which is the 5th most powerful military in the world, and has the most powerful military of any Middle Eastern country). If there is a war of Israel and/or the USA against Iran, it will be started by Israel and/or the USA, not by Iran.

Luisa wrote: "Of course we all know Israel is a rogue State who refuses to allow nuclear inspections while they cry wolf about Iran. It's absolute madness."

Israeli aggression is mad, and the hypocrisy in support of Israeli aggression is mad.

However, Iran is (1) trying to stay independent - which is not "mad" - it is sane. And Iran is (2) expressing the will of the majority of Muslims and the majority of people in the Middle East, when Iran campaigns to end the Israeli colonial apartheid regime. That is not "mad", either. It is the democracy that most Arab and Muslim people do not enjoy, because they are oppressed by brutal U.S.-supported regimes.
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Saturday February 6, 2010, 4:01 am
Correction:
Luisa wrote:
However, the mantra in the US is that Hamas doesn't want the two state solution, and President Ahmadinejad has stated the want to bury the US.

"Ahmadinejad has stated he wants to bury Israel" (paraphrase). My bad...freudian slip maybe?
 

Simon Wood (207)
Saturday February 6, 2010, 4:38 am
Hi again, Luisa : )

Whatever the exact lies in the capitalist media are, let's educate people about the reality, to counter those lies! : )
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Saturday February 6, 2010, 4:39 am
Absolutely Simon.

I'm with you all the way.
 

Simon Wood (207)
Saturday February 6, 2010, 4:47 am
: )
 
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