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Code Name "Geronimo" for Osama Bin Laden Is Wrong


Society & Culture  (tags: American Indians, Geronimo, Osama bin Laden, raid, terrorist, enemy, code name )

Sheryl
- 2972 days ago - indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com
Apparently, having an African American President in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States.



   

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Comments

Ben O (128)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 7:53 am
Yes indeed!
Native American Legends; "Geronimo - The Last Apache Holdout":
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-geronimo.html
 

Sue Matheson (79)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 7:58 am
thanks for the post.
 

Lydia S (155)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 8:49 am
Thanks again.
 

Vikram Chhabra (394)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:14 am
I agree with this article.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:33 am
One would hope that it was a tribute to a great warrior who fought to defend his homeland...but given the government's treatment of Native Americans, it doesn't seem likely.
 

Rita D (87)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:37 am
Noted! Thank you dear dandelion for this post. I totally agree with you, it really IS a DISGRACE!!!
 

Joan for Peace (413)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:53 am
thanks dandelion, so glad you messaged me so i wouldnt miss this
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:54 am
Olivia, I hear where you are coming from, but again that is assume, you know the saying when we make an assumption we make an ass of u and me......assume. Why the Officials in Washington who know of and could easily reach American Indian Leaders can't ask what is proper. They do not have to give out the secrets, but as a general overall asking, before they even have a plan. Hey, is it ok or is it insulting to use the names of American Indian Leaders in this or that way. It might be nice to be considered for a change.

I put the story on the Care2 news to bring AWARENESS. You know it use to be a time when certain phrases were used to denote other races of people, those are not acceptable anymore. Our President has had many racial stereotypes thrown out depicting him as a monkey of which the African Americans point out to is not at all proper. Those who used the stereotype try to say, "oh I didn't mean it that way." Well, the undercurrent of thought is still there for a good many people and that can't allowed to continue no matter how subtle it may be. The First Nations people of this land always seem to be given the LAST consideration when it comes to these matters. We have a member of one minority group that still isnt' giving the same sensitivity to another group it wishes for itself.

How can we as a Nation moved forward if we can't understand some basic concepts and how it impacts all of our lives, both the Indian and non Indian people. I'm trying to get people to "think" here, there is more to it than feeling badly for the past and the Indians, we need to view what is taking place currently in our society and how it impacts on todays situations.

Who but the American Indian has grown up with the movies always depicting them as the bad guys, the ones who were the savages. A whole generation of people had no role models in the movies that showed them as anything but brutal at worse or stupid at best. The American Indian children suffer under the weight of 200 years of legacy that has nearly wiped out their population, they suffer the greatest of poverty today, and we also want to take away a few of their role models and equate that Indians name with the most wanted of all Terrorist to the USA.

It isn't right, it just isn't right.
 

Penelope P (222)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:55 am
The thought of the president and his cronies watching this snuff movie does not turn me on anyway
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 10:21 am
Whenever someone uses the name, Geronimo, whether to jump out an airplane or to attack an enemy; then Geronimo is at least mildly remembered, and therefore uttered. To the extent that the dead live on only in the memories of those that live, then Geronimo should be honored to have his name used. I doubt anyone will ever exclaim any of our names to jump off a cliff or kill a terrorist. We will all be long forgotten, but people will still use the name of Geronimo to signify bold action. But there are those who object; one wonders if Geronimo would then be anything more than a historical footnote if the nay-sayers had their way.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 10:24 am
Sighs. I must be tired. CORRECTION: FIRST SENTENCE should have read: "...then Geronimo is at least mildly remembered, and therefore HONORED."
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 10:35 am
Thank you, Dandelion. I would however like to say that we kids used to yell, "Gerononimo!" when performing some really grand feet (as Brian says "bold action"), such as when we jumped from one limb to another in a tree or jumped from our swing high in the air. I'm sure in our innocence we weren't thinking about insults. We were full of greatness!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 10:46 am
It has nothing to do with being a "nay-sayer" as you call me and the other people who agree with this, including most the First Nations people. Why do you assume we would even care if the larger culture at hand would remember Geronimo? The American Indians remember him, his people remember him, and they do it in a respectful and Honorable way, not in a fashion that the Dominent Culture feels is the correct way to be remembered. Again, arrogrance on others part of what constitutes what is sacred, important, or wanted by others who do not think and understand how the American Indian thinks and understands.

But to bring it to another more understandable level. I'll explain it this way.

Osama Bin Laden is on the FBI MOST WANTED posters.

His name, Osama Bin Laden, has been LINKED to being the #1 Terrorist or Enemy for the United States.

The name of Osama Bin Laden has been topic of conversation by Presidents as far back as President Clinton viewed as the "bad guy", the Evil Doer, the Terrorist, or some other NEGATIVE.

Now.....the EXACT words used.

"Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action.

Geronimo is put in place of Osama Bin Laden.

Meaning the Enemy (Geronimo {again} now equals Evil Doer Osama Bin Laden)

So Brian, if YOU want to be remembered and to go down in history, maybe you can write them to have the HISTORICAL documents changed and have them put YOUR name in there, or your Grandfathers.

Brian M. EKIA......enemy killed in action.

Brian M. the ENEMY to the United States killed in action. Oh but it really wasn't Brian it was Osama Bin Laden but we equate Brian with this Terrorist Enemy.

Would you want YOUR name always to be equated with as THE ENEMY to this Country?

How about if they used Martin Luther King EKIA.......ENEMY killed in action? Think that would of sat well with the African Americans? Be honest here. Man, there would be riots in the street.

Or pick anyone......of your Nationality that you hold in high esteem. Want their name to be followed by EKIA.

Why is it you assume that Geronimo would want to be continued to be remembered if it is only to be bad mouthed by the arrogance of the people in Power?

Thank you Brian, this is EXACTLY the type of "thinking" or non thinking that I'm trying to bring forward to this thread.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:09 am
Remembering someone while doing a great feat, as children is one thing, Nancy. Its a great feat. Geronimo was a strong Leader to his people, he and a small group of fellow Apaches brilliantly eluded capture by 5,000 United States Army soldiers, 500 Indian scouts, and 3000 Mexican soldiers.

The desert terrain was steep and formidable. The temperatures were extreme: intense cold and blistering heat. Geronimo and his band had very little food or water. What those Apaches accomplished is very likely one of the most amazing physical feats of stamina in the history of the human race. Which is stated in the article.

But what he was trying to do was to keep his people alive, to allow them to live where they were born and not be thrown on some other lands they were not familiar with, or to be put in prision. NOT because they had done wrong but simply because they were IN THE WAY of what the Powerful wanted back then.

The same thing is being done today by the Powerful to anyone of you IF THEY WANT IT. Your savings, your home, your job, it matters not. The Powerful manipulate the conditions and millions suffer under it and have lost. The American Indians were the first victims on this land........more came in the form of slavery and abuse.

The Irish were given jobs they wouldn't even give the black slaves for as it was stated at that time, "slaves had to be bought and paid for so had value", the Irish didn't have value that way, so they worked them to death. The Japanese were taken from their homes, put into camps in the middle of the desert, they lost their businesses. It goes along in history, if you are IN THE WAY, for whatever reason, it is stolen from you one way or another.

You want to REMEMBER Geronimo, then remember what he stood for. Really what he stood for. That he stood up for his rights for his family for his people against all odds. As you should stand up for your Rights today......which your rights have been lessened with all the "terrorist" hype. See the connection? Subtle, isn't it, but it's there.

Do not twist the thinking of equating this constant use of his name as somehow Honoring him. Jumping out of an aircraft if it gives the jumper a sense of bravado is one thing, but equating Geronimos name with a known face for Terrorist is another thing.

There is no excuse here, it was wrong to choose Geronimo's name, it is thinking that needs to stop. I'm just trying to point out this, so this society can move forward and away from "old" thinking passed down by your parents and grandparents.

The Dominent Culture needs to become more sensitive to a people who have already suffered much and lost much. If we don't come to this understanding, then the rights of anyone of us can be abused. We must stand up for each other or there may not be anyone standing up for you when the time comes.
 

Parsifal S (96)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:26 am

It is a slap in the face of every peace loving taxpaying citizen!
How could the current US terror regime call this CIA murder-ops "Geronimo..."?
Bad memories awakening!

Osama Bin Laden, (this monster) was a CIA agent, his name was Tim Osman and was provided in the service of war and secret service during the time of USSR occupation of Afghanistan.

OBL died in December 2001:
Osama Bin Laden is dead

Geronimo's last appearance... A terrible affront. Never forget!
What a shame to the US government. Blame on you, fie!

 

Krasimira B (175)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:48 am
I was shocked this morning when I read the news. Agree with Parsifal. The shame!
 

Krasimira B (175)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:50 am
You cannot currently send a star to Dandelion because you have done so within the last week.
 

MmAway M (519)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 12:46 pm
Dande, This article is shocking, while reading all of the comments I Personally WAS not aware that this operation was called "Geronimo" it is like a slap in the face to all of our Native Americans. I watched a PBS movie on the "Wild West" with the Native American's being CUT down...

They should of names this operation something else...When I hear people yelling Geronimo, they do it with glee.

Thank you for all of this information at the news site, as well as all of the comments!
 

MmAway M (519)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 1:02 pm
Parsifal - Thank you for the links you put up, I could only get a photo of Geronimo on the first one, nothing came through. The second link took me to the video on Just C's news and watched that. Thank you!
 

Susanne R (236)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 1:29 pm
"Geronimo" was used as a code name for Osama bin Laden, not the operation itself, so I can understand why Native Americans find this insulting. I would, too. Osama bin Laden brought death and destruction to America, and America fought back in defense of its land, people and way of life. Not all of the people who settled in America centuries ago had good intentions. Some of them brought death and destruction to the Native Americans, and the Native Americans fought back in defense of their land, people and way of life. In my opinion, an apology is in order.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 1:34 pm
Thank you Susanne R........someone who "got it".
 

Ann Welton (230)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 1:42 pm
Noted. I don't believe using Geronimo as a codename for OBL was honoring Geronimo in any way, shape or form. And should NOT be considered an honor. The US government has a LONG history of discriminating against the Native American/American Indian people, that continues to this day. For those of you, who consider it an honor, maybe you should ask yourself this: How happy would you be if OBL's codename had been of someone you admired or were inspired by? For example: Washington, Lincoln, King, Mandela, Ghandi, Jesus, etc....
 

Tammy f (118)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 2:30 pm
Thank You Dandelion for this story. I truly had no idea about this and am shocked and am saddened even more than before. This entire killing is hard to stomach.
 

Caitlin M (104)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 2:37 pm
I agree with Penelope's remark, even though she wasn't speaking about the issue at hand. This mission was most odius and nothing more than a "mob hit" by our government. It is a shameful act. It is no wonder that Geronimos ancestors and native peoples in general don't want his name associated with an unarmed man who was murdered by the US government. No matter how evil OBL might have been, "American values" says innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We just seemed to forget that this time.

I think it's good to bring this up, Dandelion. It seems to me one important point to make is that whoever has been discriminated against should be the people who decide what the right thing to do is. If a lot of native people say (as they do) that Geronimo's name should not be used this way, then anyone should respect their wishes.. For instance, I prefer using the term "black" for our African-American friends simply because it is a shorter, less cumbersome term. Some blacks use the term 'blacks' as well and I use the term along with them, but if I'm in the presence of someone who prefers African-American, then I use that term in deference to that person's sensibilities. It is simple respectful behavior.

Sometimes we just have to believe what people tell us is appropriate for them and not think we have to argue a point, even if it doesn't make sense to us. It may not make sense to us because we haven't walked a mile in their moccasins.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 2:48 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Caitlin because you have done so within the last week.
 

Toni C (508)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 3:07 pm
Thanks for the article, but I don't think I want to make a comment... there's been enough said. What's done is done and no one can go back and change a thing, whether it was right or wrong. The book is closed.
 

Henriette Matthijssen (154)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 3:07 pm
Geronimo was a Hero for his people & died as such! To have used Geronimo name to compare him to Osama bin Laden was a total disgrace & an evil attempt to put down the proud Native Americans Nation that fought to keep what was theirs. It was disrespect & totally out of line & insanely insensitive of President Obama to do as such, just another attempt to show just how low he is willing to go in attempting to disgrace a proud Native American Nation. Long live Geronimo as the true Hero he was & always will be to all those who knows the history! Thanks for your voice Dandelion for all the Native American Nation!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 3:16 pm
At least an apology could be given Toni and a realization that this wasn't the best selection of name to use. Is how everything seems to be with the American Indian, well the deeds are done, lets forget about it. No we do not forget, the people the harm was done to don't forget, this is one more example why we shouldn't forget. Is why we remember the Holocaust so it doesn't happen again, so people do remember these unpleasant but vital histories. And as to whether it was right or wrong......let me assure you, it was wrong.
 

Norm C (74)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 3:26 pm
Geronimo (his real name was Goyaalé, frequently spelled in English, Goyathlay) was defending his people against an onslaught of Europeans (Spanish/Mexicans having killed his wife and children in 1858) bent on stealing their land. He sought to defend his people and their land from invaders and from unscrupulous officials. The terrorists were those who forced the tribes of the SE to relocate to Oklahoma Territory and then stole even that from them. The terrorists were those who used smallpox infected blankets to commit genocide against Native Americans. The terrorists wiped out villages at Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, Washita River, etc. in the West as well as countless episodes in the East and Midwest. The genocidal massacres and slavery throughout the Carribean and Americas committed by the Spanish were too numerous to list.

No question that Geronimo was a fierce opponent and warrior. He and his bank of warriors killed a lot of people. A lot of Americans killed a lot of Apaches. He was chased to ground in 1886 and agreed to terms with Cpt. Lawton and Lt. Gatewood, but General Miles and the government of the day abrogated that agreement, just as the govt. had in 1873 with Red Cloud in the Dakotas. No, Geronimo was not the terrorist in the SW.
 

Gloria Fernandez (20)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 3:28 pm
thanks for this Dandelion, noted and shared it.
 

Naoko i (257)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 4:18 pm
Thanks for this article, Dandelion. It is the first thing came to my mind when I knew that "OBL was dubbed Geronimo in the operation." It is utterly wrong !
 

SuS NoMail Plez P (244)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 5:37 pm
Dearest Dandelion~ I thank you for posting this article and appreciate every word you have spoken. I appologize for such dishonor. I'd love to send you stars, but unable for awhile yet.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 5:46 pm
I am running another story simultaneous to this one it is titled

Geronimo: A Century After His Death, Tied to Bin Laden, the CIA and Skull and Bones

http://www.care2.com/news/member/901507364/2796799

If anyone would care to view that, most interesting and few know of this.
 

Dave Colorado (11)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 5:53 pm
Dandelion,

I wish the bogus "Geronimo" insinuation were not so dwarfed by the other, larger, hateful insinuations that have long been rolled into the blaming of 'hijackers' for damages which could not possibly have been caused by airliners (not even 100 of them!), enemy-creation, gender-neutral Fatherland-creation, wars-starting, crimes against humanity, etc, so I could care even more about the theme of this thread.

As for how much the treason-hugging regime of executioner-in-chief (or is it butcher-in-chief?) Obama (D) cares about it, I definitely share your concern!

But since, IMHO, only liars, haters, fools, traitors, and perpetrators still go along with the physically-impossible, disproven, discredited hijacker-blaming big lies of 9/11, none of us should be too surprised...
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 5:59 pm
Maybe you don't care about the use of Geronimo's name on this but many American Indians do and their children who do. Your tunnel vision Dave is narrowing all the time. You make claim you see the picture from the eyes of the eagle yet you still only see the wee mouse that is below.
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 6:10 pm
Cheers Dandelion

To me, it seems despicable to smear the memory of a Geronimo Apache Warrior Leader by associating Geronimo’s name to one of America’s most wanted enemies. Using Geronimo’s name in this way smells, tastes and is racial/ethnic discrimination. There seems to be way too much of it about and people come up with all kinds of excuses to justify using racist terms whether it be overt or covert, loudly offensive or subtle it is what it is.... racism.

Yes Dandelion, and if there is one thing that really gets my goat is, those terms.... "oh I didn't mean it that way." or "I don't mean you, your alright!" Etc.... That pees me off!

Geez, there are so many other terms they could have used for him, like get that MF or SOB!
Will there be an apology.....????? To me there should be. But I reckon there will be excuses for using those terms or a denial. Just like most racists.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 6:13 pm
You cannot currently send a star to wooddragon because you have done so within the last week.
 

Animae C (509)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 6:14 pm
COLD HEARTED IGNORANCE!!!

U.S. government APOLOGIZE....
not only for associating this GREAT MANS good name with evil!!
APOLOGIZE for hundreds of years of terror & genocide.....
Barak Obama you should aspire to Kevin Rudd!!
He said SORRY to our indigenous people for the unspeakable atrocities in 08!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWfiFp24rA&feature=player_embedded

Yes we have more work to do for our indigenous here in Australia
but we're way ahead of the U.S.!

@Wednesday May 4, 2011, 3:07 pm
""What's done is done and no one can go back and change a thing,
whether it was right or wrong. The book is closed.""
THE BOOK IS NOT CLOSED, IT'S NOT IN THE PAST,
THE HORRORS CONTINUE IN THE PRESENT!!!
Are you only insulting the Indian people,
or do these statements include those who suffered the Holocaust,
all soldiers worldwide who suffered in battle,
the Australian Aboriginal,
ETC. ETC. ETC.
No one can go back & change any of these events too,
but according to your philosophy let's close the book & forget them too, eh!!!
Wisdom should have arisen by this stage in your life
how sad you continue to walk on the path ignorance.
 

Charlie L (47)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 6:42 pm
Dandelion, I for one totally understand why this inexcusable misuse of the name Geronomo is offensive to you. I feel that your outrage is totally justified. I just know that if I were a Native American I would be deeply offended. And, I agree with you, at the very least a sincere apology should be made.
 

Ness F (211)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 6:44 pm
Well said Sioux, Dandelion, Wooddragon, Susanne R and other like minded poeple whom noted above whom have common sense, respect,compassion, appreciation and understanding.
It is an absolute insult to use this great man's name ... many other approp. names as Wooddragon noted would have suited this situation greatly rather than using a great warrior's name in vain!
 

Past Member W (257)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 7:27 pm
Well told to our good friend Dave C......Thanks Dandelion
 

Rosemary Rannes (642)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 7:55 pm
Dandelion i was stunned when i heard this comparison ... no need to mention again! Shame on them!
 

Carmen S (69)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 8:17 pm
Predjudice is a terrible thing and I am afraid it will always exist. Being latin I know it still exists.

Indians
Blacks
Latin
Jews
and now Muslims. Years back you also had the Irish and then the Italians. They were lucky but I am afraid the others will not get off.so easily.
 

Kathy C (354)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:19 pm
With the given history,,, why does it surprise anybody? They have never had any respect for Geronimo.
Just my opinion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones

Geronimo
Main article: Geronimo#Alleged theft of skull

Skull and Bones members supposedly stole the bones of Geronimo from Fort Sill, Oklahoma during World War I. In 1986, former San Carlos Apache Chairman Ned Anderson received an anonymous letter with a photograph and a copy of a log book claiming that Skull & Bones held the skull. He met with Skull & Bones officials about the rumor; the group's attorney, Endicott P. Davidson, denied that the group held the skull, and said that the 1918 ledger saying otherwise was a hoax.[43] The group offered Anderson a glass case with what he believed was not the skull of Geronimo, but rather a skull of a ten-year-old boy, but Anderson refused it.[44] In 2006, Marc Wortman discovered a 1918 letter[45] from Skull & Bones member Winter Mead to F. Trubee Davison that claimed the skull was "exhumed" from Fort Sill by the club and was "safe" in the club's headquarters.[46]

In 2009, Ramsey Clark filed a lawsuit on behalf of people claiming to be Geronimo's descendants, against, among others, Barack Obama, Robert Gates, and Skull and Bones, asking for the return of Geronimo's bones.[43] An article in The New York Times states that Clark "acknowledged he had no hard proof that the story was true."[47] Alexandra Robbins, author of a book on Skull and Bones, says this is one of the more plausible items said to be in the organization's Tomb.[48] But Cameron University history professor David H. Miller notes that Geronimo's grave was unmarked at the time.[46] Investigations conducted by journalists such as Cecil Adams and Kitty Kelley have concluded this story is wrong.[49][50] A Fort Sill spokesman told Adams, "There is no evidence to indicate the bones are anywhere but in the grave site."[49] Jeff Houser, chairman of the Fort Sill Apache tribe of Oklahoma, also calls the story a hoax.[44]
 

Deb E (63)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 9:42 pm
This article reinforced my thoughts that people are oblivious as to how they come across to anyone but themselves and their tiny circle of friends. This world needs empathy. There is nothing at all appropriate about utilizing the name of a great warrior, defender of his people against an invading army of foreigners, in the same context as that of a terrorist who was not defending people but, rather, trying to wipe out an entire race of people. What this country's military did to the Native people of this land when they decided to take it from them was no better than what OBL was trying to do to "infidels". I am disgusted with the callousness of this government on all levels. An apology for just plain not thinking is very much in order. Perhaps, though, the people who came up with the name never learned the "real" history of the takeover of this land and haven't a clue how stupid it was to have given OBL the honor of being called by the name of Geronimo.
 

Steve H (45)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 10:05 pm

I wouldn't doubt at all that they used Geronimo's name because they knew it was wrong to do it and knew it would offend but let's remember...the people that set up and carried this out are the tools used by the government to carry out whatever they want and our military and law enforcement has and is being used against Native Americans. They blindly carry out any orders against anyone. I mean come on, even a couple YEARS after 9/11 the vast majority of US military personnel actually still believed Iraq had something to do with 9/11..........When it's that easy to brainwash so many then why would they not be callous racist empire building cogs in the machine?
 

LucyKaleido ScopeEyes (82)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:08 pm
Thank you for this post, Dandelion.

My first GUT reaction, when I heard on TV that the Navy Seals who carried out this mission used the code name 'Geronimo' for Osama bin Laden, was one of shock & outrage ! I was appalled that the US govt, Pres. Obama, the DoD, et al. - had chosen to associate this great Native American hero with the US national enemy N° 1, the mastermind of terrorist attacks worldwide, that had claimed so many innocent victims !

What could Geronimo possibly have in common with ObL, the author of so many crimes against humanity? Geronimo was loyal, brave, dedicated, daring -- traits shared by those who carried out the mission, while 'daring' or even 'reckless' could describe the mission itself, but certainly NOT the target of the mission !


Dandelion, you must be appalled by the sloppy, shoddy, inattentive readers who cannot distinguish between naming the operation 'Geronimo' vs naming the 'most wanted terrorist' 'Geronimo'.

Whatever you may think of the operation, it would have or could have been an honor to the fierce & dedicated
Apache warrior to give the OPERATION the code name 'Geronimo' - but using the name of the great Native American hero to designate terrorist ObL is most assuredly an insult & a misrepresentation of history, our American history, & the long struggle of Native Americans to survive the genocide being carried out against them.

I may not be Native American, but I am able to perceive & recognize an insult when I hear one. This cannot possibly be considered or rather confused with honoring Geronimo ! (You don't/didn't have to be African-American to recognize, on one hand, the racism, human rights violations, unjustifiable violence,abuse & segregation that African-Americans suffered for so long, & on the other, to support Martin Luther King, the civil rights movement, the voter registration drive, the Freedom Riders, etc.)

Empathy is universal -- Empathy knows no geographical, ethnic or racial boundaries... On the contrary!! Why are we heartbroken for the Japanese victims of the tsunami & the radioactive contamination? Why are we horrified by the genocide of the Armenians at the hands of the Turks? Why are we revolted & distressed by the wholesale physical destruction of Iraq, the destruction of the very fabric of Iraqi society & so many Iraqi lives because of our invasion and criminal (& certainly intentional) mishandling of the occupation?

We try to see the world through the other person's (or people's) eyes, put ourselves in their shoes & see how it feels to be in those shoes, experience what he is experiencing or experienced. Just last night -on an excellent French TV talk show- they had on, as a special guest, the American economist, writer, public speaker, political advisor & activist Jeremy Rifkin (sadly I'd never heard of him before!) to discuss his new book. The book -- 'new' here because it has only just come out in French-- is a history/overview of the development of empathy, & argues that increased empathy, in our age of electronic telecommunications, will bring people together to co-operatively solve global problems like fossil fuel extraction, global warming & nuclear proliferation. 'The Empathic Civilization - The Race to Global Consciousness in a World in Crisis,' was Huffington Post's Monthly Book Club Pick, Feb. 2010.

To launch the discussion on Rifkin's theory, the French show host showed a short clip of then-Senator Obama speaking on the subject of empathy & books.
I am dismayed by Obama's failure to live up to his words & by his contributing -- in the case of Geronimo being abused & misued as a namesake for Osama bin Laden-- to the 'empathy deficit' he once decried!
 

Susanne OFFLINE (23)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:17 pm
Dear Sheryl, i couldn´t agree more with you on all you´ve said. How disgraceful to even choose Geronimo for their Mission."Ignorance IS BLISS"-awful, shame on them!!!
 

LucyKaleido ScopeEyes (82)
Wednesday May 4, 2011, 11:25 pm
Kitty G's comment had not yet shown up when I started writing mine, so I didn't see that she has spoken about the need for empathy. Is this a case of telepathy? After all, we were composing our comments at the same time !! Well, I'm glad she did emphasize the importance of 'empathy -- it's a concept & a practice that is truly necessary to be fair & just, not opinionated or prejudiced, & to seek real understanding of others.

I wanted to thank Kathy, too, for explaining the Skull & Bones story & Ramsey Clark's lawsuit, none of which I knew about.

Offensive ! That's what the use of Geronimo's name for ObL is -- offensive!
Shame on all those who agreed to this choice -- they really should've known better.
 

wiz w (10)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 12:49 am
Geronimo was a great leader and stood up for his and his people rights .bless him and all and may peace be with everyone
 

Kathy C (354)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 12:55 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2URLpJDbK-U&feature=related
I helped pass this around in 2008 for our Native America brother & sister activists who were protesting a pig factory farm near their land. If you have the time please watch, there are several others there if you want to take the time to watch them. See all the cops? It just confirms what I've always believed. Our government is still very afraid of the Native Americans. They said Geronimo had great powers & was protected by the great spirits. Some say he had the power of shape shifting which helped him elude the cavalry. He was a great warrior who I believe was protected by the spirits. He was more in tune with Mother Nature than any of us will ever be.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 4:53 am
Geronimo was a very brave leader. They even put him in Alcatraz. It was our government that was wrong.
 

Tania King (112)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 5:48 am
You know,when all this stuff pop out,i thought exactly was you say in the article.It's really misrespecful to the american natives.Who comes to be Geronimo in this story?Bin Laden?Therefore,does Geronimo represents a symbol of a dangerous individual urgently up to get rid of?Indeed,it isn't surprising:american army got kicked off from a number of places for their uncapability to comprehend other people's uses,feelings,strategies(Vietnam...most recent:did you watched Back Hawk Down?)
 

DobieMax WoBib (15)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 5:56 am
Noted
 

Arild Warud (174)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 7:19 am
If the white man uses the name Geronimo in vain this way they need to be educated.Geronimo was no terrorist,it's time that the US people acknowledge what they did to destroy the Native American culture and how much sacrifice has been paid by them.SHAME ON WHOMEVER NAMED THIS OPERATION IN THE NAME OF GERONIMO!!!Thanks for the post Dandelion.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 8:04 am
Kitty thank you for the comment it was very well stated and very clear. Tania your insight was perfect.

PeasantDiva your words were, "Dandelion, you must be appalled by the sloppy, shoddy, inattentive readers who cannot distinguish between naming the operation 'Geronimo' vs naming the 'most wanted terrorist' 'Geronimo'."

I am. One has to be thicked skinned to survive on here when it comes to bringing an awareness in certain areas. The same people that can muster empathy for other causes still fall short when it comes to the history of their own Country and the First Nations people. I noted that it was some of the US citizens that lacked the grasping of what was trying to be conveyed in this article and not any of the people in other Countries. Those who live outside of the United States, to their credit, seem to have a better understanding of our history than our own citizens.

It has been refreshing to have this understanding with various people from other Countries for the weight of continued lack of empathy, by not all, but still many, as shown on this thread wears upon one. I have native friends who no longer come on Care2 anymore simply because they were tired of the racist thinking, the lack of thinking, lack of empathy, and after generations of having it happen on the outside world didn't need to be subjected to it on Care2.

People that would think twice before saying something concerning a black or African American do not seem to give the extra thought about the American Indian. They want to enjoy the pretty photos of them dancing in the regalia, or say, gee that is terrible what happens on the Reservation, but to truly understand the concept fully of what went on and still takes place today, that doesn't seem to be desired. Yet how can this Nation moved forward unless it does. The person or persons' in our Highest places who all agreed to the choice of the name Geronimo to equate to Osama Bin Laden is a perfect example of that lack of "thinking" when it concerns the American Indian.

It is a shame that so many of my American Indian friends have left Care2, however I'm still in contact with, for they had a lot to offer on here. To bring awareness, to offer teachings, to spread some knowledge, but not at such a high cost to them. I offer many various news articles and information on Care2, I'm a well rounded individual and try to be there in all areas of injustice. However, when I offer articles on bringing awareness concerning the First Nations people, I always have to toughen up, be prepared, be ready for it, for someone or a few someone's will always hit the thread with the lack of empathy both you and Kitty mention.

I even had one person state to me awhile back on another story I put on, "Why don't you move on, after all some of you survived." I have to wonder would she had said that to a Jewish friend who had lost family in the Holocaust? That if they put a story on now and again about the concentration camps or something concerning that would she had told them to move on after all some of YOU survived. This from a woman who knew my heritage and claims such compassion in other areas.

So I stay with Care2, put up my Shield to deflect, so I can bring forth these stories to get the American people to think. I do not do this to be unkind, to be an idiot, or to make you feel bad, or to punish you in some way, but just trying to get people to "think" beyond a place they have found comfort in. That things they say, that they do not feel are offensive......is offensive.

If I was to let you walk around with a piece of toilet paper stuck to your shoe or the back of your pants would that be nice? Wouldn't you rather my telling you, hey, there is toilet paper that is attached to you. You may not have seen that toilet paper so it wan't bothering you, but you certainly would not want to be walking around with it attached whether you are aware or not of it. I'm trying to show you the toilet paper of your words that is all. So many don't even realize these thoughts that become words are not at all becoming to them and when they speak them to certain people, Indian and non, they show an ignorance they may be not aware of, and in additon are insulting or hurting another human being.

 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 8:07 am
You cannot currently send a star to Arild because you have done so within the last week.
Thank you, my wonderful friend and brother from Portugal, you speak wise words.
 

Angela Dubie (306)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 9:12 am
The Patriot act, labeled George washington as a terrorists!
What other evidence do we need to know that our government has been overthrown by those who we claim to have gained independance from every Indepance day!
Terrorists are all who stand in the way of progress toward the new world odar!
Terrorists are all those who stand up for themselves, instead of paying lobiest and lawyers to represent them!
Terrorists are are those who defend their homelands, cultures, and ways of life, from the hostle global takeover!
We have a dyslexic government, that says up, when they mean down, and they call others what they're are!
They actually think that treason is patriotism, and deception in truth, yet we continue to vote them into office, thinking that a different face, will cure a corrupt system!
My husband is chief wana dubie, and we have been terrorized in the name of justice, for being armed with a bag of seeds!
It's time to plant the planet, with seeds of Geronimo's and jesus's and Ghandi's, for we have had our quota of Hitlers and tyrants!
Are we Chief, or are we Squaws?
 

Karen Walker (71)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 9:45 am
I understand your displeasure at the use of the name of Geronimo for a terriorist. This was not, I believe, an intentional slur on the Native American people, but was simply not a carefully thought out choice. I apologise for the choice, Sheryl.
 

ewoud k (68)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 10:35 am
What's in a name? It's just a code (any name, if you think well about it).

But using this name, Geronimo, as a code for this operation, was -to say it politly- shortsighted, and can be considered as an error.

IF -but that's hard to believe- they "just took a name" without thinking, it is shamefull as it proves that they -the politicians, the intelligence people- have no memory, and don't think, if -what's more likely- they took this name on purpose, it's even worse, as it puts a warrior for freedom for his people at the same level as a terrorist.

Lack of intelligence.

 

Norman Caswell (36)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 11:22 am
It was the 10th Mountain Division (stationed in Colorado) and the 45th Infantry Division (largely made up of Colorado, New Mexico, and Oklahomans) who popularized Geronimo's name when going into battle in World War II. It was a Tribute to a great warrior, recognized by ALL. Known as RESPECT!
 

Constance F (418)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 12:08 pm
Thank you very much for posting. That's all I want to say. I certainly have nothing insigntful to add, I think most of you all said it quite well.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 12:28 pm
Hello.......AGAIN........LET ME BE CLEAR.

Caz......going into battle and using Geronimo as a thought of bravery, which he was is one thing.

Using Germonimo as a Code name and equating it with Osama Bin Laden is another thing. You know equals. Geronimo equals Osama Bin Laden.

People please please please PLEASE.........TRY TRY TRY.......to understand this concept. It really isn't that hard if you would take the time to think it through.
 

Penelope Ryan (178)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 12:54 pm
You would think that they could have picked another code name name. What I want to believe is that Geronimo was picked because it signifies bravery,tenacity and dedication to his nation and people. It has long been a war cry when rushing into something, and this may have been the intent. Geronimo was a man who was wronged by the Mexicans and then by the US. He was brave and this was a time when bravery was needed. Denied even the right to die in his homeland. This man's name has become as common a name as you can get, a cry for going forward and facing whatever. I admire him so much I have a picture of him in my home fo 30 years or man. Go Geronimo, go Seals and their Seal Dog that went as well.
 

Deborah B (71)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 1:22 pm
Thanks for the post, Dandelion. I can say with conviction that the FIRST THING that came into my mind when I heard that the operation was coded as "Geronimo" was exactly what this article is all about. Outrageous.
 

Rosemary Rannes (642)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 1:36 pm
Dandelion i have added some information that i hope will add to the clarity you have provided with historical notations and Native American quotations.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/213931729/2798192
 

Dave Colorado (11)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 1:47 pm
Dandelion,

Your tunnel-visision + prejudice is outstanding!

How you could possibly turn "could care even more" into "don't care", and then couple that with a personal attack, says volumes about YOU, "dear"...!!!

Kindly brush up on your reading, thinking, and/or people skills, and use them, before putting your keyboard into gear next time.
 

. (0)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 2:53 pm
I find Nobama actions very sicking PUKE!!! I believe that he knew all the long where he was , He wanted to act the main man part but to say something like this!!! He needs to taken out and stake out like the indians use to do. This is a insult. The Man was living next street by where we were traing our people now what does that tell about the US and there get about finding people. They knew he was there. They need to do some back checking. Patting him self on the back. All Obama is doing is working on people to try to get him back in there come election tim and I pray to the Creator that people are not that stupid to listen to his more lie's. to bad the CIA don't pop him. For what he said about one of our most famour leader Indians that is respected. Bull hockey on him. You Dave have no right to say that to Dandelion, you must be a Obama ass kisser, been here 2010 only 11 friends I can see why. You need to brush up on your key board before you gear up about some body. How do you like us now? Don't good!!! For you attacted her first Now I'm taking up for her and I'm quite sure they will be more. Or go away. I'm really in the mood for this and I can go there and I will I haven't checked your page fully yet but I will you bet ya. For friends stick together here. Indians do and other ones too. I have Cherokee in me so you just stepped on my toes too. Enough for now you do have a problem and are looking for a fight, But I'm not going to do it. I'll let some other handle you ok? Thanks Dandelion.
 

Robert S (111)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 2:58 pm
Native Americans say they are hurt that Geronimo was used as a code name in the operation that killed Osama bin Laden
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42915465#42915465
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 3:00 pm
"so I could care even more about the theme of this thread"

To me that translated to I don't care about the thread and what is being discussed

If I translated incorrect, you have my apologies.....Dave. Is all you had to say, is I misinterpeted what you said.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 3:04 pm
Thank you Robert for the link. I hope those who still do not believe it hurt American Indians watch the faces on these decendants of Geronimo.
 

. (0)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 3:13 pm
Why didn't they use Finally Obama can rest, Osama Bin Laden has been killed.No they don't want to do that and insult all of his people, And thats exacually who they are. Who care's the man is dead already let it go. But to use Geronimo for the kill. The US tried to take all of the Indians out remember? So did Columbus and most of the stniking Presidents that were ever in the white house.
 

Gillian M (218)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 4:42 pm
I have no respect for the position of the American president. Two terms of a brainless moron and now an impotent Muslim (sorry, nothing will persuade me that he isn't) who cannot deal with long standing politicians. At least Bush had his family to support him.

This government wants to keep the idea of a brainless savage alive so that their guilt since the start of the wars against the Native Amricans began can be hidden. Massive amounts of compensation is owed and essential support has not been given.

What is sad is that Geronimo was a great leader and warrior and this is a terrible insult to his memory and that of his people. Bin Laden was a coward who did not believe in the rights of humans.
 

Nimue Michelle Pendragon Gaze (339)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 6:04 pm
An unfortunate choice. An apology is in order.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 8:31 pm
It does sound insulting although that may not have been the intention. Apologising would show no harm was intended. Thanks for posting.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 8:43 pm
On reflection (and after reading more on the subject) I think it probably was intended as an insult, so someone needs to make it right.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Thursday May 5, 2011, 9:24 pm
The white man took the fight to the Indian - not the other way round. We invaded their territory and treated them as less than human - so their leaders such as Geronimo, Chief Seattle, Sitting Bull et al had every right to fight for their homeland. IN THE CASE OF OSAMA BIN LADEN - HE WAS THE EPITOME OF TERRORISM AND HAD NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE - AND THE ONLY CAUSE HE FOUGHT FOR WAS HIMSELF. THEREFORE IT IS A DISGRACE TO UTTER GERONIMO'S NAME IN THE SAME BREATH AS OBL.
 

Diane L (110)
Friday May 6, 2011, 1:03 am
I apologize if I'm missing something stated in the article,and didn't read the entire thing, but personally, I think the "code name" Geronimo is more of an honor than not! Geronimo was a famous warrior of great courage and one who evaded knuckling under to overwhelming odds against two powerful governments for a very long time. What is more fitting than to use that as a code name for a highly risky and not publicized military manueaver? I would consider it an honor for such a thing to be named after me, actually, but I'm a nobody, so unlikely!
 

Naoko i (257)
Friday May 6, 2011, 3:25 am
As I understand, it was NOT the operation that was dubbed (coded) as Geronimo, but OBL as the "wanted," which makes it disgraceful and insulting. Or I'd say disgusting. Well, I'm not an English (language)native, or a US citizen, so excuse me if I'm wrong...
 

Naoko i (257)
Friday May 6, 2011, 3:27 am
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/03/why-geronimo-for-some-bin-laden-code-name-holds-anti-native-american-implications/
 

JustaHuman Here (53)
Friday May 6, 2011, 4:08 am
I wonder what comes next.
 

Diane L (110)
Friday May 6, 2011, 4:49 am
If you're interprettion is correct, Naoko, then yes, it's not right to have dubbed this operation with the name, Geronimo, but that's not how I perceived it when I heard of it on the news. As Nancy P. said a couple of days ago, when I was a kid, we all played games where we'd yell, "GERONIMO" when we jumped from one tree branch to another, or dove into the lake, or whatever. It was an announcement that WE were strong and brave. Kind of like when The Lone Ranger yelled, "HI YO SILVER, AWAY!", or the "Tarzan" yell. Heck, at the time, we didn't know WHO Geronimo was. We just associated the name with a bigger-than-life person who did dangerous feats and survived.

In the case of this name being given to seeking out and killing Bin Laden, maybe it was used because it has a good "ring" to it. Should they have said, "Peter Pan" has been accomplished? I guess they could have, as long as those "in the loop" knew what it meant.

I don't know, but seems there are always those who want to read something negative or disrespectful into everything. I'm usually very much the "skeptic" and tend to "read between the lines" a lot, but there just wasn't anything disrespectful or negative to this that jumped out at me.
 

Naoko i (257)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:24 am
Diane L, the first part of your comment is quite understandable. It might be true that Geronimo is a hero, even to those who are not Native Americans. But still I can't agree with your second part. I think these two - admiring Geronimo and name (code) OBL as Geronimo - are quite different things. If the entire operation was named Geronimo, it could have been that the Seals were expected to be brave as the great warrior. But if the "Geronimo" was to be killed in the operation, what is the connection? Where is the respect?

In anyway, as the Indians themselves say they were offended, the US government was insensitive and must offer sincere apology.
 

Kathy Javens (104)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:30 am
Noted. This is a clear and utter disgrace to the name of Geronimo. Will they never learn from the mistakes made by the those of the past? And when will they give the Native Americans (the TRUE americans) the respect they have deserved for so very long. And as for the killing of OBL, yes he was a very bad man, but I agree with Caitlin. He should have been brought in alive and made to stand before a jury of his peers. I am sure he would have gotten the punishment he deserved.
 

Danielle Herie (2)
Friday May 6, 2011, 6:18 am
THANK YOU
 

malke schmiedeberg (2)
Friday May 6, 2011, 6:50 am
Noted! Utterly wrong!!
 

Angela Dubie (306)
Friday May 6, 2011, 7:00 am
Kathy, yes, he should have gotten a fair trial, but dead men tell to tales!
Death is the only quick and speedy trial, that our government offers these days!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday May 6, 2011, 7:42 am
Thank you Naoko for the comment on Friday May 6, 2011, 5:24 am. I have found that those who live outside of the United States seem to pick up on this much more quicker and with greater clarity than those who live in the Untied States with the American Indians in their backyards. We wonder why so much still exists in the unfair treatment of the First Nations people.

As you so clearly stated:

In anyway, as the Indians themselves say they were offended, the US government was insensitive and must offer sincere apology.

Exactly, why can't the non Indians realize this, that if the Indians state they are offended why should excuses be made for the ones who did the offending. Where is the understanding to the Indians?

In case the readers didn't take the time to LOOK....which I don't think some did, this article was published by, guess what......an American Indian publication. It is from INDIAN COUNTRY. Shouldn't they know how they feel?

Instead of defending this ill thought out choice of a code name, it might be nicer to see a few minds open up to state, gee at first I didn't think about it that way, but upon reflection I now do, which to her credit Michele G. did. Thank you Michele.


 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday May 6, 2011, 4:14 pm
 
From Democracy Now!:
 
Native American Activist Winona LaDuke on Use of "Geronimo" as Code for Osama bin Laden: "The Continuation of the Wars against Indigenous People"
 
~ ALSO ~
 
Petition to: President Obama U.S. Senate & House Of Representatives
 
"The American Indian community demands an apology from President Obama to include U.S. Senate and House Of Representatives for allowing the code name "Geronimo" represent international terrorist Osama bin Laden.
 
The association of Geronimo's name to Osama bin Laden is yet another degrading slap in the face to American Indians from another president and our federal government who waged an "unnecessary holocaust war" against American Indians in the forming of the America we have today. True American history shows Indians were never an enemy of this country. American Indians had every right to stand up for their true home land, way of life, freedom, civil liberties and right to self govern.
 
Geronimo is an American Indian hero, an American Indian civil rights leader icon in U.S. history. President Obama would not dare allow the name Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson or any other prominent African American name be associated to Osama bin Laden. This one point alone being made goes to the heart of demanding an apology from President Obama as our country's Commander in Chief.
 
President Obama's gross oversite in allowing Geronimo's name to be used representing a mass murder terrorist Osama bin Laden, calling for the destruction of America is another dark day in American history branded on the American Indian community and totally unjustified. An apology from President Obama will not change history, but a public apology from President Obama has to be part of that history for future American generations and people around the world to fully understand the plight of American Indians, their service and patriotism to our country.
 
History note: The federal government is setup and based on the foundation of American Indian Nation governments, so stated by U.S. Senate resolutions honoring Native American Indian Heritage Month of November. Federalism, separation of government powers, freedom of speech to include the Indian word caucus were home grown, and in use by American Indians and their gift to all people of the world willing to stand up for their human rights.
 
Mike Graham, Founder United Native America Citizen of Oklahoma Cherokee Nation and U.S. www.UnitedNativeAmerica.com"
 

Angela Dubie (306)
Friday May 6, 2011, 4:14 pm
Ok then, lets change the name to opperation Jesus, just to see how many get offended!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday May 6, 2011, 4:46 pm
Thank you Carole for adding the links to this thread. I appreciate all those who gave the positive understanding and support to this article. Bless you Karen for taking the extra step and apologize that just shows what a noble person you are. I hope that the Leaders in this Country can step up to that same plate and show what they are made of. Whether intential or not, it still carries the same sting and it contiunes to be a reflection that when it comes to our Government understanding the pain that the American Indian suffered and still does, hasn't been reached yet.

As one Elder Navajo woman said who is trying to fight for her rights to her place upon the land that her people lived for generations, again being forced to relocate and the damage done to the people and the land, "Will Washington ever Wake up?"

That is a very good question.
 

Naoko i (257)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:12 pm
Thanks *C*, I signed the petition (#909)
 

Barbara W (342)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:20 pm
Washington insiders have been anywhere but where the truth lies. The truth sticks in their throats. They are not on the same wave length where decency lives. It's up to US and has always been up to US. As the expression says, "You can't get blood from a stone"! And the hearts of the gr$$dy are like that of stone. But "We" can and are, believe me, making a difference. With folks like you guys on Care2, we can't lose.
 

MmAway M (519)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:47 pm
OMG...Angela...Your comment almost made me say out loud "HAH" -- Dave, you have missed this article totally, sadly! In my humble opinion this news should of NEVER EVER HAD that name...Call it "007" if you want - but don't ever name some Special Mission after a Great Native American, this is horrific to me and Yes I do believe that a apology is in ORDER! You are the President, and hope "You didn't name this mission, who ever did, needs to Say Sorry to all of our Native Americans"...Cranky! Thank you again Sheryl!
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:47 pm
Angela.. or maybe operation JFK.... Just F£$%ing Kill !!!
 

MmAway M (519)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:51 pm
BTW...Just "C" signed the petition you put up and thank you...!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday May 6, 2011, 5:59 pm
Being that you are a citizen of the UK my dear, I understand, but no can do with the JFK. He is known that way to most Americans and was one of our more endearing Presidents who stood up for equal rights in a big way. He also helped to shed the stigma of being Irish in this Country which was only a step up in the way they were discriminated against from the American Indian. In fact many of Irish heritage married the American Indians as they both understood oppression. JFK represents President John F. Kennedy.
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Friday May 6, 2011, 6:48 pm
OMG Dandelion, I never meant it as a disrespect to John F Kennedy in no way shape or form, especially due to all he achieved whist he was a president. It was rather to twist people’s level of understanding. If there are people out there who do not understand where you are coming from, then maybe by using his name, they now know how you feel. Which is total outrage!
 

LucyKaleido ScopeEyes (82)
Friday May 6, 2011, 6:57 pm
For once & for all:

It was NOT the OPERATION that was named GERONIMO ! NOT the OPERATION!

It was Osama Bin Laden who was CODE-NAMED Geronimo !

When Osama Bin Laden was referred to during the operation in communications between the Navy Seals & their headquarters they said 'GERONIMO' instead of saying Osama bin Laden.

'Geronimo' was used as a NAMESAKE for the TERRORIST Osama bin Laden, the perpetrator of crimes against humanity.

CAN'T WE GET THIS STRAIGHT ?

Geronimo's NAME was USED to REPRESENT the MASS MURDER TERRORIST Osama bin Laden - The OPERATION was NOT called Geronimo !


Btw, I came back to link to today's Democracy Now! show : ' Native American Activist Winona LaDuke on Use of "Geronimo" as Code for Osama bin Laden: "The Continuation of the Wars Against Indigenous People" ' -- Just Carole has already done so ! Bravo, Carole.

Naoko has got it right: "If the entire operation was named Geronimo, it could have been that the Seals were expected to be as brave as the great warrior. But if the "Geronimo" was to be killed in the operation," there is no respect. Yes, using 'Geronimo' as the name for OBL means that they were out to kill 'Geronimo' - 'Geronimo' was their target for assassination - they killed 'Geronimo'!! the US military is still fighting the Indian Wars ! --and outing the great Native American leaders !

That is exactly what Winono LaDuke said on Democracy Now! today: "The reality is that the military is full of native nomenclature,” says LaDuke. "You’ve got Black Hawk helicopters, Apache Longbow helicopters. You’ve got Tomahawk missiles. The term used when you leave a military base in a foreign country is to go 'off the reservation, into Indian Country.' So what is that messaging that is passed on? It is basically the continuation of the wars against indigenous people."
 

MmAway M (519)
Friday May 6, 2011, 7:05 pm
Thank you Plesant Diva for this information!
 

Nancy C (806)
Friday May 6, 2011, 7:10 pm
Insensitivity and Ignorance...
 

Angela Dubie (306)
Friday May 6, 2011, 7:18 pm
War is all about bigotry, hate and prejudice, it's hard to kill someone that you love and respect!
No one likes it when the fickle finger of blame points their way, but few stand up to the finger, and point with it away from themselves!
Until we abolish the finger of division, it will be pointing at someone!
 

Scott Freewheeler (45)
Friday May 6, 2011, 7:50 pm
Bless your heart Dandelion and all those that are speaking out against this sickness we have in our society. There is an almost constant barrage of prejudice and dehumanisation of people who make up our rich and diverse world.

No one is born racist, this is a fact. Young children don’t care about differences. I believe that racism only exists when it is initiated by a leader for his own evil material gain and then he coerces others to join him and they spread the disease.

This is why the name was chosen in my view. It was to steal the deep rooted racism inflicted on the Chiricahua Apache and all American Indians and transfer it to the Muslims.

Never underestimate the power and need for racism. Wars cannot happen without it. The psyche battle for our minds is everything. Guns and bombs are useless without someone to use them.

We are constantly bombarded with very subtle racism (and some not so subtle) so that every young boy gets infected with racism so that he may be a good soldier one day. Look at so many of the big movies to see what I am saying. This is how the plutocracy thinks. They own all the film companies and even Disney. Do you watch the cartoons you let your children watch? Because perhaps you should.

I have noticed that there is always a sinister reason for racism which is never actually anything to do with taxonomy but instead it is the will to do harm to those people by another such as; slavery or cheap labour, theft of land, theft of assets and money (WW2 and Jews) and many more that are too depraved to mention.

These horrific reasons never include what the racist is accusing them of. There are no reasons for racism, we are all equal and only our individual behaviours set us apart.

It is the one who is accusing with racist remarks that is usually up to no good –warmongering, murderous, greedy, thieving, etc. And usually the accused that has the moral or intellectual high-ground.

I have no wish to evangelise but please permit me to share a verse from the Holy Quran which sums it up so nicely;
“O people! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct…” (Qur'an, 49:13)

PS. I think Wooddragon felt that if OBL was codenamed JFK then every American would feel insulted just as the Native Americans do, in order to illustrate just how upsetting this is.

PPS. No one has dared to say this and since I might be the only Muslim here, I will. Imagine if they had codenamed OBL after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (ṣall Allahu ʿalayhi wa-’ālih). I bet they thought about it. Thank God they thought better of it.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday May 6, 2011, 8:01 pm
Very good insight Scott and Wooddragon I knew you didn't mean it to refer to the President who was assasinated. There was a reason he was, he was standing up to the Federal Reserve, the Head of the Snake. But that is a whole other story. I just pointed it out on this thread in public so that if another reader came along who didn't know you the way I do, and that you are from the UK, that they wouldn't jump on it.
 

Scott Freewheeler (45)
Friday May 6, 2011, 8:14 pm
Just had an interesting email entitled;

“Signature Confirmation - President Obama - 911 – Indianus”

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Indianus/

"Your signature on the petition is already complete, and there is no need
to reply to this message."

“Your signature number for this petition is 911.”

Gulp! It had to be me didn’t it! Masha’Allah!

Please don’t read anything into this my friends; I am an ‘Innocent Muslim’!

Legalize Islam

Fee Aman Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)

PS. I absolutely agree with you on JFK and we are both looking after dear Wooddragon ty :)
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday May 6, 2011, 8:22 pm
lol.......that is great Scott......thanks for sharing. I needed me a good laugh, and you gave one.
signature 911.......
 

ChanTlalok Rain C (363)
Friday May 6, 2011, 10:08 pm
thank you Dandelion. Osama bin Laden, who was he? Is he the person that the Capitalistic News Liers tell us he is? How about our honest, haha, politicians tell us? Or was he a small fry used as a scapegoat? Some Arab peoples, Afghans, and Pakistani never heard of him except through American & European News Agencies. Maybe he was just a CIA creation, to make chicken shit Americans afraid of "Terrorism", so they would give up their rights? Who are the Real World Terrorists & Liers? Think about it, in the 1500's to now it's been the Europeans and Americans. Who did 9/11, some Capitalists, American politicos and agencies, plus Saudis, and Israelis. I'm just a humble Lipan Apache/Aztec and I know this, so how come you other Care2 members don't know this truth? Also, who is President Obama? He is the Wealthy White Man's puppet/lackey doing their bidding even if he looks like a fool for killing Osama bin Laden a dead man that died in December 2001 and equating him to Geronimo. I don't think Obama came up with the code name it was given to him by his bosses and he just danced.
Blessings to you all.
 

Diane L (110)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 12:14 am
OMG, ChaTialok, with all due respect (only to your heritage), you are a nutcase. You are as delusional as Scott. IF, indeed the name of Geronimo was used to represent Bin Laden (who existed and anyone who is so paranoid and off into the twilight zone as to think otherwise) then maybe it was inappropriate in a way, but at the time, maybe Geronimo came across as being a terrorist to the U.S. Cavalry. He was THEIR enemy, he was very secretive and eluded capture for years.

Personally, while they COULD have chosen a different name, it's still an honor in a way to have used his name. I think far too many put WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on small things and blow them out of proportion and are way TOO inclined to be "politically correct" in the sensitivity department. When I was a kid, yes, the "N" word was used often. It gradually was phased out as being disrespectful, and I agree, it WAS! Then those with darker skin were called Blacks. I think that is very appropriate, and it by no means has any negativity attacked to it, anymore than I should be offended if I'm called "white" rather than Caucasian. Even Whoopi Goldberg dismisses African-American as being ridiculous, since she was NEVER in Africa, except to tour as part of a charity group. She said it offends HER, actually, and that she's an AMERICAN, first and foremost.

Get over it, ChanTialok! Seems that as some "humble" Apache/Aztec, you have a lot more "inside" information than the rest of us, and I'm being sarcastic. If you live in the USA, then you are one of the "chicken shit Americans"........accept it. How come, if the Pakistanis never heard of Bin Laden, they're all crowding around the residence where he's been living for the past few years and talking about him? How come the Pakistani government has denied for years that they knew where he was? If they never heard of him, they'd not be denying anything. BTW, the word is "Liar", not "lier".

Dandelion, I disagree with you about WHY JFK was assassinated, but you're right, another story and has nothing to with this.
 

Diane L (110)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 1:09 am
PeasantDiva, I just now noticed and read your comment about the other terminology used for weapons, such as tomahawks, apache (Helicopters) and Black Hawks, reservations, etc. Have you ever stopped to think that those words may very well be out of RESPECT, not to be negative? Reservation is a word that isn't necessarily reserved (see?) for where Native Americans reside. Military bases are called RESERVATIONS. It's derived from the word "reserve".

A lot of flack was raised at one time over storms always being named for women, in that it implied women were destructive. Bull! Ships have ALWAYS been named for women, and the crew will refer to such huge vessels as the USS Arizona or the USS Kittyhawk as "she"............."SHE was doing 20 knots", etc.

Fighter jets are named for fierce birds or animals........Tomcat, Raptor, etc. Sports teams adopt animals as mascots.........Huskies, Wolverines, Eagles, Dolphins, Seahawks, etc. It's an honor, not disrespectful.

Actually, I never put a moment's worth of thought into the "code name" Geronimo, other than as many of us have said, it was a word we used when, as little kids, we did something awesome and without fear. Now, with all this crying out of disrespect, it only makes me think that those who are making such a big deal about it are whining and drawing attention to themselves and NOT in a positive way. One of my closest friends is Native American (well, half) and is a tribal chairwoman of one of the biggest tribes in my area. She thinks this is all pretty ridiculous. People need to STOP drawing attention to whatever they can as far as the nit-picking small stuff. JFK was not elected BECAUSE he was Irish Catholic, nor would he not have been elected because of it. He was elected because he was the better candidate between himself and Nixon. Obama was elected NOT because he is HALF Black, but because he was the best choice over John McCain. I voted for him and will again. If a green person runs next time and is the better candidate, that's who I'll vote for as well!
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 5:58 am
Thank you Scott that is exactly what I was trying to say... if they had used JFK as a codename for America’s most wanted then every American would feel insulted just as the Native Americans do. I am sorry, if anyone was insulted by me using this terminology, but I was playing Devil’s Advocate in order to illustrate just how offensive this is. In my defence, it was rather late, and having looked closely to what I wrote. Maybe I should have written that I was playing Devil’s advocate and to not presume everyone would understand at what angle I was coming from.

Diane, why are you using ad hominem attacks on Scott and ChianTialok Rain? In my observation, this seems to be a habit with the majority of your comments; insulting and attacking anyone who has a different opinion to yours. Why can’t you write a comment without insulting people you disagree with? You have attacked Scott and ChianTialok Rain for nothing other than to slur their characters, and I think this was not necessary.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:05 am
Diane L. In all due respect, your friend of mixed heritage can certainly have her personal opinion, however the many leaders of various Indian Nations have spoken out to state that this isn't correct. This article was written from a publication out of Indian Country to state that the use of Geronimo isn't correct.

When many of the members of a particular ethnic race state they are offended, why can you as an obvious non Indian just accept that, learn from that, and try to understand. That while for you a NON Indian, it may not seem like a big deal nor hurt or bother you at all, but it hurts American Indians. Where is your compassion for your brothers and sisters who are hurt by this?

You seem to understand why one shouldn't use the N word yet fail to understand when American Indians say they are insulted that the Non Indians should have the right to continue to keep on insulting them and that they shouldn't complain or stand up for their rights.

The only reason why Geronimo was the US Cavalry enemy is because they made him that way. They and the United States Government was trying to STEAL his rights, his lands his people lived on and had done so for generations. Geronimo wasn't trying to steal land, he didn't come to the Dominent Cultures doorstep and over run them. He was the GOOD GUY........however the THIEVES........made him the bad guy.

On Contrary, Osama Bin Laden, if one goes with the Government version, sent people here to this land to kill people. In fact Osama Bin Laden had people do the SAME thing that the US Cavalry did. So why not have used a code word after some famous Cavalry Officer, huh?

Instead of Defending this action I'd wish that those who are doing so would really read the counter of what I have offered and some others have offered on this thread. Why do you want to go around Defending racist policy? If you can't understand why it is wrong after the AMERICAN INDIANS tell you it is, then perhaps you should take a sensitivity class or two. It isnt' just about being politically correct it is to stop the racism against the First Nations people of North America that far too many people seem to want to cling onto like some comforable blanket.

And if there is any one line that irks the crap out of American Indians it is to say "Get over it." That shows the most lack of understanding of all. You have no idea how awful that is to say that and that is the whole issue at hand, that people do not take the time to UNDERSTAND. So crap like this continues on and on instead of a people rising up, trying to understand to mend bridges, to begin a healing in this Country, it is easier to stay in ignorant ways that are comfortable and continue to accept the insults upon the American Indians.

Instead of clinging onto "wrong" persecptions why not use this as a learning experience and say, "gee I had no idea but I'm glad I now know." As they say take a walk in someone elses moccassins. So NO it was NOT an honor...(in a way), as you stated to have used his name. Only to those lacking understanding it was. Many non Indians on this thread also seem to "get it" why it wasn't an honor.

Oh, for your information, just because some of the American Indians are still living within the United States borders does not mean they are US citizens. They are a seperate Nation within, which is another concept you obviously do not know of, so in actuality how dare the U.S.A. select another Nations hero and link it to this Terrorist. Too many speak out of ignorance and it shows, which is the place where racism and bigotry have their breeding ground.

 

Angela Dubie (306)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:30 am
This operation could have just been called operation 666, since the media and the government has painted him to be an anti-christ, but then that would just have been a reason for the satanists to stand up and cry foul!
These oppereatios should be named after the ones who authored it and authorized it...Opperation Obama #6651/2!
No matter where you throw a stone you are going to hit someone, for it is easy to please some people some of the time, but you just can't please all of the people none of the time! Peace would destroy the war moungers, bur war creates peace moungers!
People only seem to get offended when the stone hits them, but seems to have no compassion what so ever when it hit others, not realizing that the only way to make sure that you won't get hit with it, again, is to refuse to throw it back, i guess that is why we collect rocks, we throw none back, lol
 

Angela Dubie (306)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:39 am
In our world it is legal to offend, just don't dare get offended!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:41 am
Maybe if we all Gave PEACE a chance we'd not have to be using any code words. This Country makes policies that creates it's own enemies then it uses names of others who have already been kicked around and try to make that some kind of sick honor out of it.

I placed a great film on Care2 news about FUEL......explains how we create enemies and policy. Watch our Criminals at work. It does leave a ray of hope and I'll place the quote "When the people lead the Leaders will follow" Mahatma Gandhi The "just" people need to lead and move or walk over those leaders who will not start to follow.

The story to FUEL link is: http://www.care2.com/news/member/901507364/2799288
 

Kris B (136)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:49 am
No wonder the US continues to have hate crimes.
They keep hate alive by using inappropriate, thug mentality.
I would like the military to show respect and display intelligence. There have high tech equipment and highly trained people and yet they still use hate to run the operation.
There should be an apology to all the people who actually pay for the war in so many ways for using Geronimo's name.
Then, there should be ongoing diversity training to really have true honor!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 8:16 am
You cannot currently send a star to Kris because you have done so within the last week.
Very well stated Kris, and yes, diversity training would be welcomed.

The US military was always the ones charging after the American Indians trying to kill them, move them, or control them. Is easy for those of other backgrounds to say, what is the big deal the military saying Geronimo....EKIA. But once more the enemy was linked to the American Indians being the enemy. The American Indians have already had too many guns pointed at them from the US Government.

This is also very disrespectful to American Indians who have served with Honor for the United States to have this slap in the face. American Indian Veterans are saying this is wrong, why is it that others still on this thread want to condone or support this action. Can we not honor all Veterans when they say this was not a correct choice.

It is very real memories for the American Indian and even when it was done this way in another land, when you've been made the enemy by this Nation over and over, the even mention of it, within the context of this action is just too much. It hurts, it is painful, frightening even and others who haven't been the brunt of this Countries military directed towards them need to begin this understanding.

It requires looking outside of your own familiar way of "thinking" and look at it from the point of another.
 

Diane L (110)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 11:31 pm
Wooddragon, if I wanted to resort to your level of responding, I could go the route you did in two other discussions where I replied to general statements, and to you, directly in one for what YOU had stated, personally. You went OFF on me and told me to never address you again. Can I respectfully ask the same? I didn't attack anyone, but stated my opinions. I disagree with almost every statement made by Scott, and since he doesn't live in this country, I don't consider him as having any personal knowledge that is so far "off" from proven facts from those sources that I DO respect. He can't speak from the viewpoint of a Native American if he's Muslim. As for Chantialok, my opinion stands. The remarks are those of somebody lacking in facts and is just full of hatred. I did not insult her/him anymore than she/he insulted my country and myself. It goes both ways.

Dandelion, thank you for the polite response, but my friend is not of "mixed" heritage......she is HALF Native American, a tribal chairperson, born in the same neighborhood as I was, went to the same high school, and we worked at the same company together for about 5 years. Our daughters are the same age and we have visited each other's homes. She is as very much "in the know" about Native Americans, however, as you probably are, since her Mother is full-blooded and born on a reservation. Also, before giving such reverance and respect to Ghandi, I suggest you "Google" him. You might be surprised to find he wasn't quite the pacifist he was stated to be, at least not during his entire lifetime. He committed some pretty despicable acts, many against his own people. You also said, "just because some of the American Indians are still living within the United States borders does not mean they are US citizens. They are a seperate Nation within, which is another concept you obviously do not know of, so in actuality how dare the U.S.A. select another Nations hero and link it to this Terrorist."........actually, I am very well aware of that, and it irks me to no end when those who live on a reservation (and therefore are a citizen of their own "sovereign nation") also want to have full rights and benefits of a U.S. citizen...they want it both ways as far as benefits, but certainly not when it comes to anything negative, such as obeying other than tribal law. They certainly ARE US citizens, "technically" having dual-citizenship. You also said, "This is also very disrespectful to American Indians who have served with Honor for the United States to have this slap in the face. American Indian Veterans are saying this is wrong, why is it that others still on this thread want to condone or support this action.:......I didn't mention, my ex-husband's best friend is full-blooded Native American (I believe Makah) and his daughter and mine have always been friends, since they're the same age. His daughter told mine that her Dad never picked up on this (I discussed this with my daughter on the phone night before last) and thinks it's silly to make such a big deal out of it.

Kris B., hate crimes occur everywhere. Please don't insult my intelligence by implying they only occur in the US and because there are still bigots and racists here. One only has to read various articles in Care.2 to be aware of them everywhere, and the most horrific seem to occur in the Middle East, and Africa. Maybe I mis-understood your comments, and if so, I apologize. I've re-read them twice, so not sure what you're saying, actually.

Again, I doubt anyone would have given a 2nd thought to the code name of "Geronimo" if such a fuss wasn't being made. Yes, of course another name COULD have been used, and I LIKE the "666"....it makes sense, since that supposedly represents the Devil and incarnate evil. They could have used Tim V (for Timothy McVeigh) as well. Maybe it didn't have quite the simplicity or "ring" to it, I don't know.
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 3:23 am
And my level of retort is to tell you not to address me Diane due to the fact you had laughed at racist jokes, which were so offensive they were removed. As to Scott, he has a right to his viewpoint being Muslim does not segregate him from this thread. You clearly, do not see how racist, ignorant and bigoted your comments are, and that is a shame because if you had self awareness, it would give you the ability to be open, thoughtful and aware of how you impact others.
 

Diane L (110)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:03 am
First of all, Wooddragon, I didn't "LAUGH" at any racist JOKE. Somebody posted a comment that was meant to lighten the discussion with a bit of humor, and that was all it was. I commented, "Thanks for the attempt to lighten things up". That wasn't "laughing". Secondly, it was one comment, not plural, so your statement that I "laughed at racial joke(S) is unfactual.

Secondly, yes Scott has a right to his viewpoint, and so do I! How DARE you be so hypocritical as to demand that I not address YOU, but you have the right to come in here and insult me? I didn't drag what was said in another discussion in HERE......you did. I also am not a racist, nor ignorant, nor a bigot, and just because I disagree with you, or Scott doesn't make me one. I respond to the facts, and could care less if the subject of this discussion is green with purple spots or striped or whatever. You consider me to be racist because I don't agree with you? I could say the same thing because YOU don't agree with me. You don't even know WHAT my race is, do you? Does it matter? I find it almost amusing that when somebody disagrees with you, the first thing you do is whine "racism". Scott whines about "hatred", yet that's all I read in his comments about whenever he reads a comment from anyone who disagrees with him. Too bad neither of you practices what you preach.
 

Diane L (110)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:30 am
For what it's worth, since absolutely NOBODY who is commenting in this discussion was alive when Geronimo was, everything we're basing our opinions on is what we've read or heard somewhere. If one IS Native American, they are biased based on years of discrimination against them, and probably rightly so. However, facts are being ignored and facts are that the man wasn't a SAINT. He initially had issues of revenge against Mexicans, and again.....rightly so. In his many years of waging war on BOTH Mexicans and Americans, he killed many innocents, including children. There are probably as many different accounts of his life as there are comments in this discussion alone. Read however many you wish, but if you read this one, then at least be open-minded enough to acknowledge he was not exactly a martyr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo

I also realize that the theft of his skull is in a completely different Care.2 discussion, but this article tends to read a bit of discrepancy into that accusation. We'll probably never know the truth, will we?
 

Diane L (110)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:54 am
Here's a link to another website that discusses the same thing as this discussion. Please read it, especially the last paragraph. It lends a slightly different approach to the event, and one which everyone should at least read and consider.........

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2011/may/08/geronimo-code-for-american-courage/
 

Naoko i (257)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:31 am
Diane L. Just one objection. You wrote "I doubt anyone would have given a 2nd thought to the code name of 'Geronimo" if such a fuss wasn't being made." But I, for one, felt very uneasy and thought something was wrong with the name, before "such a fuss was being mede."
 

Naoko i (257)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:33 am
Sorry "such a fuss was being mAde."
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:24 am
I agree Naoko, I felt the same way too.

Diane, in your comment you left out the Ha, ha, Jennifer! Thanks for the attempt to lighten things up. I loved that! Doesn’t the; ha, ha demonstrate laughing? Therefore, you are being unfactual! As to the rest of your comment, it clearly reveals racism, ignorance and bigotry and not worthy of my input.
 

LucyKaleido ScopeEyes (82)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 11:12 am
Diane L is quite mistaken in saying that no one would've given it 2nd thought if such a fuss weren't being made ! That is wrong & it suffices to take a look at my first comment to prove it:

I wrote in that first comment that my immediate GUT reaction -on hearing that OBL had been called 'Geronimo' by the Navy Seals (when reporting back, during the operation, to Leon Panetta at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va, or whoever they were in communication with) - was shock & outrage.

This was before I knew that there was going to be 'a fuss' about it.

This was my OWN PRIVATE PERSONAL reaction, when I was watching the news at home in Paris, so it was the French evening news, & nobody made any comment about the use of Geronimo's name to designate the target, OBL, they simply played a tape of the Seals saying 'Geronimo' & explained in French that that name was a code so as not to say Oussama Bin Laden.

In fact, I clicked onto Dandelion's post because I was glad to see that others had reacted as I had.

And I am not Native American (I'm a 'mutt' -as Obama said of himself the night he won the election & I liked that very much- a mix of early 20th century Sicilian immigrants and German/Protestant-&-German/Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany) so really I have nothing Native American about me, unless you count a personal sensitivity regarding genocide. That's a pretty strong thing to have in common, though.

Diversity training is a very good idea -- personally, I grew up with diversity in my family, having parents with such different backgrounds, so it is natural to me. And I am really allergic to nativists & all that 'racial purity' fascist rap! I used to think that growing up in NYC, as I did, was also diversity training, because we've got every nationality, every religious persuasion, every ethnic variation in NYC. And you can spend every weekend, at least you could when I was growing up, going & seeing & having lunch in an Armenian neighborhood, or a Greek neighborhood, or 'Chinatown' or 'Little Italy.' I understood that when my mother, who arrived from Germany at age 10 without speaking a word of English, made Italian dishes it was a matter of respect for my father's heritage & an important part of his identity -- after all, when the language has been lost, when the culture has in large part been lost, what's left is the food, which is part of the culture, anyway. And I understood that when my father listened to Italian opera & sang along with his records, that was part of his identity, too. So roots are something I understand intuitively.

And if people make derogatory or degrading remarks about Italians or Sicilians or Jews, I take it personally & I see them as racists. If they had used the name Einstein in an effort not to say OBL, people would have found that surprising, don't you think? Or if they had used the name 'Verdi' or 'Puccini' as the secret code to avoid saying Ossama Bin Ladin in their communications?

OMG, people would've said: what does a great composer like Verdi have to do with US public enemy n° 1 and an international terrorist. Why would the US military associate the name of Verdi with an international terrorist about to be assassinated ? Why would the US military want to 'out' someone like Verdi?

Or Einstein, why say 'Einstein' instead of saying OBL ? Why call the international terrorist you have set out to kill 'Einstein'? Einstein was a great physicist, what does he have to do with international terrorism?

Yet, some people can still consider it "making a fuss" to have used the name 'Geronimo.'

Maybe this cannot be explained -- you need training to understand it...

Apparently, the military aren't the only ones that could use some diversity training!

The US army & govt decided that any Native Americans who refused to be confined to the reservations (concentration camps?) that had been allocated for them, were considered 'enemies' of the US and the army could & would attack them, shoot them & kill them. The fact that once confined to the reservations the men could no longer go out hunting, which was the traditional way and the only way, that Native Americans got their food to eat, was not a problem for the US govt or the US army. They claimed that the Native Americans would get food from the govt, so there was no need for the men to go out hunting. But the food was either insufficient, or hadn't yet been delivered, or had rotted; the army tin can rations earmarked for the Native Americans were always too old; the wheat moldy -- there was ALWAYS & SYSTEMATICALLY some problem that prevented them from getting enough food regularly and that meant that the Native Americans confined to reservations were STARVING, and the men -the hunters- saw their women & children starving and they knew that all they needed to do to feed them was to go out and hunt. But that made them enemies of the US & meant that the US army would go out after them. What a dilemma !

So this is probably how Geronimo became an 'enemy' of the US. He left the reservation or refused to go onto one -- And when the US Army went after him & the warriors with him, they fought back! Not really an enemy at all - just a leader defending his people & refusing the genocide they wanted to perpetrate on them.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:40 pm
Thank you PeasantDiva. It just befuddles me to no end why people of intelligence slide down the scale when it come to logic, sensitivity, and compassion. It happens alot around the American Indian issues and yet we have one who calls us having self pity when we bring up to the public how we are preceiving this.

Others feel that our pain over this issue with using the code name of Geronimo is an attack on their beloved President, yet they dismiss the whole reasoning behind this thread. They feel the need to defend that which should not be defended but understood. Why are those of American Indian heritage and without American Indian heritage feeling this was wrong.

I am not sure why you had to correct me Diane L. when I referred to your friend as "mixed" heritage and made sure to correct it to HALF. I'm not sure what half is her native half, her upper half, her lower half, her right side or her left side. But ok, have it your way, those of us usually refer to those of mixed blood as either mixed or where my people, the Abenaki, come from as Metis. A famous flute player known in Indian Country in fact made one of his CD's calling it Mixed Blood, half is usually a white term.

I also do not see how weapons of killing or destruction is RESPECT as you state above when mentioning the apache and tomahawks so on and so forth. How can being assigned to KILLING be a form of respectfulness.
Yes, the Indians were brave warriors, but they did not go looking for the battles, it was forced upon them as PeasantDiva mention. The logic is so twisted by people who see killing, wars, and mayham as being a good thing to be named after that honestly sometimes I'm floored.

For the most part the American Indians were a gentle and peaceful people and very Spiritual and certainly would not have found Respect in being referred to in such a manner. That again, it Dominent Cultures attitude NOT the American Indian, but of coarse what the majority of us feel matters not.....to much of Dominent Culture. Did you know that most American Indian Nations never killed their enemies, they embarrassed them mostly. The Lakota would see how close they could get to the ones they felt wronged them and then would touch them with their hand or a stick, that was called "counting coup".

There is one part of me that sort of understands why some people don't "get it" as the historical information has been so slanted and from childhood up the history has been distorted. Even many American Indians do not even know of these things having also been raised in Dominent Culture, so as Diane's friend may not feel what many Traditionals feel, or those raised on the Rez, or those less influenced by Dominent Culture, or those who know least of their heritage and the actual historical facts, or who do not practice their Spirituality the way their ancestors do. Then as with every group, not all whites think the same nor all blacks think the same so why should all Indians or in this case "half" (her term) Indians think the same.

It is very unfortunate that people who hold steadfast to archaic and insensitive thinking due to incorrect indoctrination are not at least willing to try to see it from the perspective of another. I think people with PeasantDiva's background she has been fortunate to be able to live among many various nationalities and heritages. That she can understand from her families linkage to the concentration camps of Germany she can understand as she said, genocide. That the Reservations were indeed like concentration camps for that is exactly what Hitler learned from, the Reservations and systemactic genocide of the American Indian to set his plan into motion, he wrote that out, so it's a fact.

So no, naming weapons and Geronimo after a Terrorist is NOT respect, not in the slightest. Spin it how you want in your own mind, but I tell you it isn't respect and our Leaders, whoever they may be need to FINALLY get that straight. So far Washington has not, from one election to the other. Again as the Elder Navajo woman said to them in Congress "Will Washington Ever Wake Up?" If our Leaders don't set the tone in understanding then this is what we still have within the masses, it's called ignorance.
 

Diane L (110)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 11:46 pm
Wooddragon, just STOP! I didn't mention another person's name as part of the comment because it's first of all, IRRELEVANT, and secondly, she is not part of this discussion! You are out-of-line once again. Yes, I saw humor as an attempt to lighten up that discussion, NOT as a slam against anything as far as racial. This needs to STOP! Leave previous comments in OTHER discussions out of this one!

Dandelion, as I said before, I appreciate you being polite, but I do not agree with you and do not appreciate the negativity now being displayed towards me because I did not see the problem with the code name as far as being a slam against Native Americans. As I said in my last comment last night, if anyone bothered to read the bio of Geronimo, he was NOT a "saint"! He may have been very brave and fearless, but he was not without his share of unnecessary slaughter and killing of innocent people, including children! Did you bother to read any of it? Or, do you claim to know firsthand about everything regarding him? Don't try to tell me that Native Americans/Indians (whichever term you want to use), never attacked without provocation or killed innocent civilians, settlers and children. Geronimo slaughtered an entire family for no reason and hung their daughter by impaling her thru her neck on a MEAT HOOK! Wow, that sure sounds like a compassionate human being.

All you want to see is a reason to stir-the-pot" about issues and see the "dark side" into things where there probably wasn't one. I don't see anything negative about naming a weapon for another weapon. Was a "tomahawk" not a weapon? It wasn't used for making baskets! Is a "blackhawk" not a fierce bird? It's not necessarily JUST a name for a Native American tribe! It's no more disrespectful than the name "Broncos" for the Denver NFL team, or the Seahawks for the Seattle franchise. It would certainly sound silly to name a guided missile as a "knitting needle",or a cabbage. It has NOTHING to do with disrespecting Native Americans. Weapons are named after many other things as well......"Cruise", "Stinger" and the list goes on. Maybe Tom should raise a stink about his last name being used for a weapon that kills?

You want to also make a big deal out of my "correcting" you as far as the percentage of Native American blood in my friend? She isn't "mixed", she is half one race and half another. Mixed would be like I am, or PeasantDiva says she is. Why is the term "mixed" MORE proper just because YOU use it? It's not accurate. You also said, "So no, naming weapons and Geronimo after a Terrorist is NOT respect,"........ABSOLUTELY false! Nobody ever named a weapon after a terrorist, NOR named Geronimo after a terrorist. They named a military operation after GERONIMO, or even IF it was technically naming a terrorist after Geronimo, get it straight!

I'm done with this. I've discussed this and other Care.2 discussions with many friends,and most think it's silly and even if they heard about it, as I said, never gave it a 2nd thought, including two that ARE of Native American blood. Most members of Care.2 who've read the discussion's "title" aren't bothering to comment except for those of you who want to either claim that you ARE offended because you are of Native American blood, or they want to come across as having empathy. I read the same stuff in some of the articles about animal abuse, and it's pretty obvious that the emotions stated aren't genuine. For some reason, many people think they should only comment if they want to say, "OMG, how terrible", or "I agree". Few want to take the other road or state their opinions if they disagree for fear of being bashed and attacked, just as I am being in here. I have a right to my opinion, and it's not changed. I've grown tired of the references to ignorance when it's just disagreement.

If you were offended, I am sorry for that, but what else can I say? I'm sorry anyone is ever offended by anything done by anyone else, if it's not intentional. I've been offended most of my life when called "skinny" or "Old" (which I only am if compared to anyone younger, right?) or "blondie", or whatever. As a child, I was picked on and called names because I was studious and enjoyed reading, including "4-eyes" and "dumb". I couldn't change the fact I wore glasses anymore than one can change the color of their eyes or their skin. Another online friend that I've discussed this with lives in Australia. Indigenous people there (the Aborigines) were just as persecuted as the American Indian, but they don't continually whine about it. Let's see, Italian immigrants in the early 1900's? Irish Catholics? Maybe they should all make a big fuss NOW? Yes, it's a bit different in that they were persecuted in this country after IMMIGRATING here, rather than being run off the land where they were born. However, were YOU, personally run off your land? I doubt it. I'm sure that women in the Middle East who've been persecuted their entire lives feel offended, but are they going to sue the Saudi or Egyptian government 200 years after they finally get to be treated as equals? I never insulted any Native Americans, nor should any Native Americans living NOW feel insulted because the name of a warrior who died over 100 years ago was used in a military operation.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday May 9, 2011, 12:53 pm
D. L. Geronimo, he was NOT a "saint"!......

D. G. No one claimed he was. But is is amazing how someone who was leaving others alone can become enraged so deeply when mass murder was "first" done to his own family. The premise of not using any American Indian name for weapons or linked to the number #1 "terrorist" was not based on Geronimo's Sainthood or lack of.

D.L. All you want to see is a reason to stir-the-pot"

D.G. No, I would just like for people to become aware that when a group of people are stating they are insulted, hurt, feel there is lack of respect in what was done, why can this not be a learning curve for the Leaders in Washington, the Pentagon and the general population at large? Why must the unexcusable continued to be excused?

D.L. She isn't "mixed", she is half one race and half another.........

D.G. I already said, whatever makes your boat float. I gave my reasonings for the term I used. Now who is stirring the pot.

D.L. "Broncos" for the Denver NFL team, or the Seahawks for the Seattle franchise.......

D.G. Because those are not Human Beings and because an ethnic group has asked it to be stopped. Is sort of like if someone kept pinching you and you asked them to stop. Would you be pleased if they said, "I like pinching you so I will keep doing it, matters not how YOU feel about it, I just want to go on pinching you."

D.L. It has NOTHING to do with disrespecting Native Americans. .........

D.G. But it does and the heads of the various Indian Nations have said as much.........but just go right on pinching, it seems to make you and others feel good.

D.L. If you were offended, I am sorry for that, but what else can I say?.......

D. G. You could of said nothing, and you are not sorry for you keep making excuses and trying to defend what the majority of the American Indians feel IS disrespectful. Remember your couple of Indian friends do not speak for whole Nations. As I had already stated, your friend(s) have the right to disagree, however I am just trying to bring up the fact that many in Indian Country do not feel as they do, have not felt as they do, and still do not feel as they do.

D.L. They named a military operation after GERONIMO, or even IF it was technically naming a terrorist after Geronimo, get it straight!

D.G. I do have it straight......it wasn't the military operation it WAS not IF the terrorist named after Geronimo. If you think that is such a wonderful thing why don't you write to the White House and tell them you'd like that to be changed to your name ........Diane L. EKIA enemy killed in action. How does that sound? Do you want to be put down in history as having that after YOUR name? Diane enemy killed in action. Does that sound respectful to you?

Geronimo and his people were too long looked at as enemies of the United States, the man is deceased, he did suffer enough simply because of this Manifest Destiny that was propagated upon this lands. Does his name have to again be equated to the enemy of the United States. You find is so respectful or such an honor then ask to have your name placed there or your Grandfathers.

D.L. I've been offended most of my life when called "skinny" or "Old" (which I only am if compared to anyone younger, right?) or "blondie", or whatever. As a child, I was picked on and called names because I was studious and enjoyed reading, including "4-eyes" and "dumb".

D.G. Do two wrongs make a right?

Maybe you might want to run a story on Care2 explaining how hurtful those comments are that were done to you. Like I tried doing here. ding ding.....does a bell go off?

D.L.Indigenous people there (the Aborigines) were just as persecuted as the American Indian, but they don't continually whine about it.

D.G. Oh dear, lets pull out the Aboriginal people, how about the tribes of the Rainforest? I'm not whining either, I am however trying to educate people here. That just because things have been done this way for so long does not mean they are right or correct. Can we not raise this Countries level of thinking up a notch? And those Aboriginal who live in Australia are also trying to get the non Aboriginal people's to understand what is also acceptable or not.

I suppose the blacks should not have "whined" either. Today they'd still be sitting at the back of the buses and not able to drink from the same water fountains, among other things.

D.L. I never insulted any Native Americans, nor should any Native Americans living NOW feel insulted because the name of a warrior who died over 100 years ago was used in a military operation.

D.G. You are wrong I feel insulted.

D.L. I have a right to my opinion, and it's not changed........

D.G. This is very obvious.

D.L. I've grown tired of the references to ignorance when it's just disagreement......

D.G. There is a differance but I do not expect you to see that.

Please people I'm asking you to step outside of the normal way of thinking and see it from anothers point of view. Those who are speaking from Indian Country are not honored and do not feel this as a sign of respect. Why is it so hard to understand that?






 

MmAway M (519)
Monday May 9, 2011, 1:17 pm
Jeepers, lots going on on this news Dande....Angela, while going through all of these comments DO HAVE TO say that YES I think this operation for the Special Forces should of been called #666 since this was the Devil himself!
 

Diane L (110)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 12:57 am
Well, I said I was done with this discusssion, and Dandelion, I sincerely meant to not comment again, and certainly did NOT expect you to come back with as many irrelevant and silly responses to everything I said as you have. Now you are flat out not using ANY common sense. I big deal was made out of the words "tomahawk" and "blackhawk" being used as names for weapons, yet when I pointed out that there are OTHER names used, you came back with "D.L. "Broncos" for the Denver NFL team, or the Seahawks for the Seattle franchise.......

D.G. Because those are not Human Beings and because an ethnic group has asked it to be stopped. Is sort of like if someone kept pinching you and you asked them to stop. Would you be pleased if they said, "I like pinching you so I will keep doing it, matters not how YOU feel about it, I just want to go on pinching you." .......well, how is it that neither a TOMAHAWK nor a BLACKHAWK refers to a human being, EITHER?

.".......Diane L. EKIA enemy killed in action. How does that sound??".....I'm nobody. Geronimo WAS "somebody".....he was once the #1 most wanted "criminal" in the country. I guess if I was a criminal and wanted to make a name for myself, I'd be honored if they named a military operation after ME, but I'll never have ANYTHING named after me, and using my name as a comparison is pretty silly.

Angela Dubie said, "No matter where you throw a stone you are going to hit someone, for it is easy to please some people some of the time, but you just can't please all of the people none of the time!" and "In our world it is legal to offend, just don't dare get offended!".....she is right on. I honestly think you would have found offense in anything where ANY reference to a Native American was used, no matter in what context. You seem to be LOOKING for something to be offended about.

I didn't join Care.2 to just argue with everyone looking for a reason to vent, or find fault with what they believe. I CARE about many issues, but I also think far too many start discussions in here to do just that.......VENT, and people want to jump on that bandwagon and voice support when they truly aren't sincere. It makes them feel good to do so.

Maybe you might want to run a story on Care2 explaining how hurtful those comments are that were done to you. Like I tried doing here. ding ding.....does a bell go off?

"Maybe you might want to run a story on Care2 explaining how hurtful those comments are that were done to you. Like I tried doing here. ding ding.....does a bell go off?"......... I could care LESS if a bunch of people I'll never meet care if I was offended at being called "Blondie" as a kid.

"Those who are speaking from Indian Country are not honored and do not feel this as a sign of respect. Why is it so hard to understand that?".........not hard to understand at all, just becomes tiring and it sounds like whining when it's not justified in these times. It's no different than me being called "blondie" and feeling offended, or my very large-busted high school friend crying her eyes out when as a 13-yr-old, boys approached her and called her "Chesty", yet other females like Marilyn Monroe and Jayne Mansfield wanted exactly the opposite and enjoyed that attention and exploited it.

As Angela said, no matter WHAT code-name was used, SOMEBODY would have found offense in it. I read articles in Care.2 all the time that come across as being offensive towards who I am as a human being, and insinuate that what I believe in is all wrong because the author believes differently. Thank God, the majority of people with common sense prevail and most are way too busy with useful endeavors than to be wasting their time on the internet, posting to discussions like this one to either defend themselves or rant. I've said my "peace" and I've now got other things much more important to address. Have a good day, week or whatever, and maybe it might suit your needs and obvious hatred better to work to put a Native American in Congress to represent your beliefs? If memory serves me, there already are a few, but don't remember their names offhand because frankly, politicians' ethnicity is of no concern to me, whatsoever.

 

Diane L (110)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 1:13 am
Whoops, typo........I typed, "I big deal was made out of the words "tomahawk" and "blackhawk" being used as names for weapons," and I meant to say, "A big deal" was made. I wish we could post with different font in here or a different color, so what we're responding TO and what we say in RESPONSE was a bit clearer to keep separated, and I hope that what I was replying to was understood, separated from what I was REPLYING. Hope that makes sense. At any rate. I'm done here.
 

wooddragon xx (88)
Wednesday May 11, 2011, 1:17 am
“In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently.” ~ Harry A. Blackmun quote
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 11, 2011, 5:07 pm
Excellent quote Wooddragon.

D.L. Now you are flat out not using ANY common sense.

D.G. I'll pray for you Diane sometimes that is all one can do.
 

MmAway M (519)
Wednesday May 11, 2011, 6:27 pm
Goodness Diane...Care2 was not started to be a site where you continued to argue with people, just views....To me this is NEVER a RACE ISSUE PERIOD!!! Native Americans were here first in the USA...I do believe in my heart of Hearts that they need to be taken care of...While I have tons of Casinos here in the East County of San Diego and they have TONS of business, this does not help all of the Native American's that live in SO MUCH distress in South Dakota -- no heat no nothing, plus they are charged more than other people are...WHAT IS WITH THAT???

Not saying that anyone is wrong is what they believe, but I do know what I know, and IT IS SOOOOO SAD that we have taken so much from our Native Americans, and YIPES why don't we give it back...the land here in San Diego makes a TON of $$ for Native Americans, but the land in South Dakota is not helping them at all and I feel so sad!
 

Jim Phillips (3247)
Monday August 29, 2011, 1:12 pm
I was not aware that Geronimo was used as a code name for the Osama bin laden raid.

Yes, I'm in agreement that it was a poor choice on someone's part.

Lots of good posts above...

TY, Dandelion.
.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday August 29, 2011, 2:31 pm
His original name was Goyahkla – One Who Yawns

VIDEO: Naturally, Geronimo isn't remembered merely for his name. His legend is rooted in real deeds of bravery.

He died in my state, in prison. This fact is a great shame to me.
In America, great people are crushed by the government,
The government fears them and has no honor.
In this Hypocracy we call America, great people are killed by the government and then honored for their courage.
This is yet another example of a persistent ploy enacted by politicians every day. They "SAY" one thing and "DO" another. Then we pretend that some imaginary third party killed them, never accepting responsibility for our government's actions.
Will the United States EVER accept responsibility for their crimes against humanity?, or will we just have to end this ongoing pack of criminals' lies and injutice?
We are all responsible as we elect these liars, witness their cimes and cheer them on.
Look inside your own heart, accept responsibility and CHANGE the things you "DO" to match the things you "SAY".
"DO" what you "SAY", join the resistance in an active way.
 
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