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USA Independence Day And An Overlooked History

Society & Culture  (tags: July 4th, Independence Day, USA, Native American, Indians, massacre, overlooked history )

- 931 days ago -
Like Thanksgiving or Columbus Day, there is another side to Independence Day, which, as the fireworks pierce the skies during this year's festivities, deserves some serious consideration.


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MmAway M (517)
Wednesday June 29, 2016, 5:02 pm
Aw Sheryl sweet one. I won't post the site here since I need to return to read clearly.
Your news is aways thought provoking and informative, if I miss something I will feel like a about what you write! Care about "U"

MmAway M (517)
Wednesday June 29, 2016, 5:03 pm
Aw Sheryl sweet one. I won't post the site here since I need to return to read clearly.
Your news is aways thought provoking and informative, if I miss something I will feel like a about what you write! Care about "U"

MmAway M (517)
Wednesday June 29, 2016, 5:04 pm
That was NOT on purpose. I was petting my dog! SORRY!

JL A (281)
Wednesday June 29, 2016, 6:59 pm
Thanks for the "rest of the story" Dandelion. One thing that struck me is the generational reversal of the patterns on culture and assimilation reported for immigrant populations.

Rose B (141)
Wednesday June 29, 2016, 9:39 pm
Oglala Lakota like Moya-Smith have ample reason for anger towards America's celebration of itself. The Lakota were among the last holdouts of Native Americans who resisted the westward expansion of the United States, which came to a crescendo at the Battle of Wounded Knee in 1890, where the U.S. Seventh Cavalry massacred more than 250 Lakota people.

"We are a minority in our own country," Moya-Smith said. "How did that happen? It wasn't just germs."

While many Lakota people take a pass on the Fourth, they do share an equal respect for their own heritage. "This is the 125th year since the Wounded Knee Massacre," Moya-Smith said, adding there would be a march to the site to remember the dead, which has occurred annually since 1973.

And on the Fourth itself? "I'll go grocery shopping," Moya-Smith said flatly. "The stores are empty."


Frances Darcy (92)
Thursday June 30, 2016, 4:01 am
Yes, the indigenous peoples in all countries were robbed of their lives, lands, resourses and had the history of their countries changed in favour of tthe "White man".Children still are taught that these countries were "discovered in the year ........ by ....... " and that the natives were savages that needed to be "civilised".Of course the truth is that indigenous people were at one with nature.And it continues still today ...governments and BIG companies are still cheating,robbing and murdering indigenous peoples to get control of valuable resourses.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday June 30, 2016, 2:19 pm
It's of great shame that we have right-wingers on CARE2 in We The Sheeple and elsewhere who believe in "The American Dream," and "God's Greatest Nation" and think the original Indigenous Populations were a savage lot, whom the U.S. Govt. sorted out (Paraphrasing from them), AND who think that the way to peace is down the barrel of a gun, and the use of Military weapons in other countries.

Thanks for the article, Dandelion. I shall happily pay homage and respect to the original inhabitants of the Americas.

Past Member (0)
Thursday June 30, 2016, 10:33 pm
Thanks....good reminder!

Yusuf I (105)
Friday July 1, 2016, 1:31 am
"Any holiday that would refer to my people in such a repugnant, racist manner is certainly not worth celebrating," Simon Moya-Smith, a culture editor at Indian Country Today told Mic. "[July Fourth] is a day we celebrate our resiliency, our culture, our languages, our children and we mourn the millions — literally millions — of indigenous people who have died as a consequence of American imperialism."

Thanks for posting Dandelion and Darren for the forward, shared to facebook

Leslie Stanick (102)
Friday July 1, 2016, 1:53 am
I lived in the US fro 11 age 6-16. July 4th didn't resonate with our family. Even at a n early age, I disagreed with the way Indigenous communities and nations had been treated by the European colonialists. I so appreciate the discussion this article provides. Thank you Dandelion!

Arild Gone for now (174)
Friday July 1, 2016, 2:54 am
"Like Thanksgiving or Columbus Day, there is another side to Independence Day, which — as the fireworks pierce the skies during this year's festivities — deserves some serious consideration. "

Great article,thanks for posting Sheryl.

Robert B (60)
Friday July 1, 2016, 6:22 am
Independence Day celebrates ONLY independence from the British by the white colonists. Nothing more. It DOES NOT address what happened to the Native peoples of this country. That STILL NEEDS to be addressed!
Treaties STILL have not been honored. Our Gov. totally ignores Native Americans. The very least that should be done is to have the finest Education and finest Health Care on Indian reservations and for all Native Americans. And that is just a starting point. We need a National Day of Honoring the Native Americans and an Official Apology for the genocides and atrocities committed by the United States Government against the Natives of this land, which was brutally and systematically wrenched from them.

Evelyn B (63)
Friday July 1, 2016, 6:37 am
Definitely food for thought, thanks, Dandelion

Patrick Donovan (344)
Friday July 1, 2016, 7:57 am
Not to negate the telling of this atrocity, but there is another group for which the Fourth is joke: the millions of slaves who were not freed.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday July 1, 2016, 8:17 am
Yes. A friend of mine, quite knowledgeable in history mentioned earlier today, that Thomas Jefferson BRED SAVES. So, quite an ugly lot, contemporary modern day America's Founding Fathers.

Angelika R (143)
Friday July 1, 2016, 8:19 am
Independence? Not so much! Rightly pointed out the slaughtered First Nations and the slaves,-both of which has not really come to an end for good in many ways- but as well the rest of Americans! Hoping one day in the not so far future you can really celebrate Independence Day from Corporate America!

. (0)
Friday July 1, 2016, 8:38 am
Noted & posted. Independence? By 1825 English banksters controlled 71% of the American capital and banking system. Who really won?

Winn A (179)
Friday July 1, 2016, 9:48 am
Thanks Sheryl

Joanne Dixon (37)
Friday July 1, 2016, 10:00 am
Humans are tribal beings, and holidays tend to reflect that, and any holiday for one tribe (in the case of the Fourth of July, "white" "Americans") will at the least minimalize other tribes and often denigrate them. It's always good to look at that. Just as an example, Saint Patrick's Day is not exactly an Irish holiday, but a Catholic Irish holiday. Though personally Catholic (and not Irish), I try to wear some orange with my green to honor all the Irish Protestants - many of whom also died defending their own.

Sheryl G (359)
Friday July 1, 2016, 10:11 am
Native Americans were also used as slaves and we can't forget how much of an Independence Day was it as we interned the Japanese Americans of whom many had sons on the front lines serving and giving their lives.

Very true Angelika that would be worth celebrating as it is strangling us all no matter what our heritage is or race is.

Gene J (290)
Friday July 1, 2016, 12:15 pm
Great article, Dandelion. There is truth throughout it. This has been the way of this world since before recorded history began - one group moving in and pushing out, or killing, another group. In the middle east, the Jewish people and the Arabic peoples are still fighting over land claims that go back to the Diaspora as to who was there first. The good news is, essentially, this is no longer happening. The world is full so to speak. The bad news is that indigenous people are still treated so poorly in so many places in our world including this country. There are trails of tears in every historical period we have record of. If assimilation is the answer, then the playing field has to be level and it still isn't not for Native Americans here, nor the children of slavery, nor for other indigenous populations throughout the world.

That's something we should be working very hard to make right, or as right as it can be made, we have miles to go before we sleep, and many more before we are all free and equal in each others eyes and lives. Civilization is not possible without that journey. I hope we can walk it together in peace with respect for each other and our histories, acknowledging the mistakes of the past and moving forward to a loving, soul satisfying future together. A world wide Independence Day. Probably not in our lifetimes, but it is coming, the sooner the better.

Sandra S (40)
Friday July 1, 2016, 12:29 pm
Native Americans had slaves, too. American Indians were not always peaceful. Read up on the Pueblo, Navajo and Apache tribes as only one example. They fought with and killed each other. I'm not ignoring our treatment of Indians, but let's be factual. We also know that our Founding Fathers were not perfect. They were human, but that should not devalue the great things that they did either. We are always striving as a country for a more perfect union. Our past was not always something to be proud of, but what about the good that was done and that we continue to try to do more and more of it.

Why so much vitriol? Why the wish to shut down others opinions that differ from yours or to be nasty towards those you do not agree with, Darren?

Birgit W (160)
Friday July 1, 2016, 2:03 pm
Darren says it all. Thanks Dandelion.

Lois Jordan (63)
Friday July 1, 2016, 2:07 pm
Noted. Thanks, Dandelion.

Roslyn McBride (32)
Friday July 1, 2016, 2:35 pm
Completely agree it's not a day to celebrate for many, how many people realise this? Not many, I don't think.

Colleen L (3)
Friday July 1, 2016, 2:56 pm
I agree with Darren's comment. Sad how people can treat others. Honestly the way we can be treated at our jobs, is another example of how some people ill-minded ways are used in management. They feel we are to bow down and kiss their feet. Where anyone gets these thoughts of slavery/abuse I'll never understand. Thanks Dandelion

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday July 1, 2016, 3:44 pm
Most right-wingers I'm aware of and engage with, seem to have bought into this American Independence Day Bullsh$t illusion, totally disregarding the plight of the Indigenous populations.

Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers, BRED SLAVES.

Barbara P (177)
Friday July 1, 2016, 5:33 pm
Thank you for reminding me of Native American Indians but I wish I could know when the Native American Indians's celebration in America. Thank you, Darren!

Mandi T (366)
Friday July 1, 2016, 6:13 pm
Super great article, tks for posting Sheryl :-)

Past Member (0)
Friday July 1, 2016, 6:19 pm
Noted, Great Article, thank you for posting this Dandelio, and thank you for the forward Gustavo :)

Darlene W (303)
Friday July 1, 2016, 7:36 pm
Noted-thank you Dandelion for sharing this.

. (0)
Friday July 1, 2016, 7:55 pm
As is pointed out in the article, the part most wish to ignore apparently, is that natives are not one people who all think and act the same or have the same values or traditions. Where are the statistics that imply that the holiday "largely" does not resonate with Indians? This is an unfounded supposition by the author. Ever been to a reservation? There are fireworks stands everywhere, you know for celebrating the 4th. Yeah, maybe they are just capitalizing on the holiday but I don't believe they just mope around on the 4th, bemoaning the sad fate of their ancestors and whining about their own situations. I'd like to give them more credit than that. But, to each his own, and my own understanding of how some others might view the holiday does not diminish my own thankfulness for the wisdom of the founding Fathers and this great nation that they fought for and established against great odds. God Bless America and all her peoples. Happy 4th of July !

Beryl L (82)
Friday July 1, 2016, 9:31 pm
We are all one people together. Mistakes made on the part of every race color and creed.
We are all humans and we should stick together.

"Change is the only constant in life" Heraclitus

Good story Dandelion
Thank you very much my friend.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday July 1, 2016, 11:29 pm
The Founding Fathers were a set of egoistic, territorial, butchers, Donn. Just integrate that into your humanistic programming.

Cheryl Aaron (18)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 6:02 am
Thanks. Dandelion for sharing. The 4th of July is not a holiday for many of us. As for Black people, Independence Day is June 19th also called Juneteenth. That's the day (1865) when the slaves in Texas were informed of their freedom two years after their Emancipation...peace.

SuSanne P (193)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 6:04 am
I can't thank you enough for this information Dandelion. My Heart breaks every time I think of the plight of the Indigenous peoples and although I believe in Free Speech I find it disrespectful that anyone would negate what you personally know to be true. As stated in the article, yes many celebrate with Fireworks. Errr. You always give a different point of view, from your people whom I respect with my life and want you to know I shared on FB, even each separate graphic right above. Again, thank you.
Darren: I tried to give you stars for most (if not all) of your comments, but alas I can't give you anymore for the day:( Thanks to so many wonderful posts, and the quotes which I usually do. I'm glad to see so many read this, and find the sad truth.

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 6:32 am
Donn said "This is an unfounded supposition by the author. Ever been to a reservation? There are fireworks stands everywhere, you know for celebrating the 4th."

That is supposition on your part that they are celebrating Independence Day simply because they have many fireworks. In fact many native people refer to the day as Fireworks Day not Independence Day. In the past all Indian ceremonies were FORBIDDEN and the ONLY time the Indians were allowed to gather together for celebration was the July 4th holiday.

It was the one day of the year they could gather in large numbers to converse with each other and discuss their own plight and what was culturally theirs. So while the fireworks were going off, it was masking what was really going on, passing of information, keeping cultural information going even if it was just orally, it was allowing them to dance in their own way to keep their traditional dances going so the knowledge of a dance was not lost.

Over time, yes some Indians truly celebrate Independence Day and if one read through the whole article it does have different points of view. Native people just like those of other heritages have their own feelings or thoughts on not only Independence Day, Columbus Day, or Thanksgiving, but I think it's important that we remember that there is Dominant Culture and then there are people who have a very different history background.

Unfortunately our educational system doesn't really do justice to those of non European backgrounds and in healing it is required that this be exposed to the light. I also always find it amazing that when one places an article on to try to begin some healing within this Nation those who are or were most oppressed tend to always be told that they were not perfect either.

This is true, no one race or heritage is perfect, but then the Indian people didn't go to anyone else's land and take over and subject that population to honor the same people that massacred them (ie Columbus Day) and take all their land and then declare it theirs, force the people already there to move or die, then declare Independence from another Country when they already had a home where they had come from. If they truly wanted a "new" place to live they should of assimilated with the population that already lived on the North American continent, who were wonderful caretakers of the land. I bet this Country would be in a far better place today if they had.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 8:22 am
Have just reshared the original article over social media.
Help spread some genuine awareness.

Sandra S (40)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 9:49 am
I find it interesting, Darren, that you belong to a couple of conservative groups that you find so appalling. If you are supportive of American Indians, why did you once comment "Humankind is a disgusting mess of egoism..." That would include them in your mind, wouldn't it then?

Dandelion, that was a very good article, but it painted almost only one side of history and pov.

Sandra S (40)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 10:35 am

Do American Indians Celebrate the 4th of July?
Dennis Zotigh 7/4/14

The following was originally posted on July 3, 2013 by the National Museum of American Indian and has been updated with more readers’ comments and descriptions. Follow the discussion on the museum's Facebook page.

How do Indians observe the 4th of July? Do we celebrate? To answer, let’s turn back the pages of time. A reasonable chapter to begin in is July 1776, when the Continental Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence and 13 colonies became the United States of America. With the emergence of a nation interested in expanding its territory came the issue of what to do with American Indians. History tells us that as the American non-Indian population increased, the indigenous population greatly decreased, along with their homelands and cultural freedoms.

From the beginning, U.S. government policy contributed to culture and land loss. Keeping our focus on the 4th of July, however, let’s jump to the early 1880s, when Secretary of the Interior Henry Teller developed what has come to be called the Religious Crimes Code—regulations at the heart of the Department of Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Code of Indian Offenses that prohibited American Indian ceremonial life.
Teller's general guidelines to all Indian agents were to end tribal dances and feasts. Enforced on reservations, the code banned Indian ceremonies, disrupted religious practices, and destroyed or confiscated sacred objects. Indian ceremonial activities were prohibited under threat of imprisonment and/or the withholding of treaty rations.

The Secretary of the Interior issued this Code of Regulations in 1884, 1894, and 1904 through Indian Affairs Commissioner's circulars and Indian agent directives. Indian superintendents and agents implemented the code until the mid-1930s. During this 50-year period, Indian spiritual ceremonies such as the Sun Dance and Ghost Dance were held in secret or ceased to exist. Some have since been revived or reintroduced by Indian tribes.

In response to this policy of cultural and religious suppression, some tribes saw in the 4th of July and the commemoration of American independence a chance to continue their own important ceremonies. Superintendents and agents justified allowing reservations to conduct ceremonies on the 4th of July as a way for Indians to learn patriotism to the United States and to celebrate its ideals. That history is why a disproportionate number of American Indian tribal gatherings take place on or near the 4th of July and are often the social highlights of the year. Over time these cultural ceremonies became tribal homecomings. American Indian veterans in particular were welcomed home as modern-day warriors. The Navajo Tribe of Arizona and Pawnee of Oklahoma are two examples of tribes that use the 4th of July as an occasion to honor their tribal veterans.

During these celebrations, tribal flag songs and veterans’ songs are sung. More than 12,000 American Indians served during World War I, and after the war, the American flag began to be given a prominent position at American Indian gatherings, especially those held on the 4th of July. This symbol of patriotism and national unity is carried into powwow and rodeo arenas today. It is extremely important to note that before the Reservation Era, when most Indians saw the American flag coming toward their villages and camps, it symbolized conflict, death, and destruction.

Today tribes hold ceremonies and celebrations on or near Independence Day for different reasons. The Lumbee of North Carolina and Mattaponi of Virginia use this time as a homecoming for tribal members to renew cultural and family ties. The Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma holds Gourd Clan ceremonies on the 4th of July because the holiday coincides with their Sun Dance, which once took place during the hottest part of the year. The Lakota of South Dakota and Cheyenne of Oklahoma continue to have some of their annual Sun Dances on the weekends closest to the 4th of July to coincide with the celebration of their New Year. Some American Indians do not celebrate the 4th of July because of the negative consequences to Indian people throughout history, while others simply get together with family and have cookouts, like many non-Native American citizens.

Jumping ahead to the present: To find out how American Indians across the country spend their 4th of July, we went to Facebook. This handful of replies represents both the diversity of responses we received and the direction of the discussion:

Carnegie, Oklahoma: We celebrate every 4th Gourd Dancing, camping, and visiting my Kiowa people while we’re here, listening to the beautiful Kiowa songs. For three days we are just in Kiowa heaven. Been doing this for years. Now my parents have gone on, but we will continue to attend the Kiowa Gourd Dance Celebration.

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma: Do American Indians celebrate the 4th of July? Answer: Yes, it represents freedom in the United States of America. Freedom to continue to worship Creator, freedom to dance my prayers, freedom to sweat, freedom to rise early and pray the day in and be up late to pray the day out. We, the Host People, celebrate the 4th of July every day!

Prewitt, New Mexico, and the Navajo Nation: No, I do not celebrate. Because I as a Diné will never relinquish my belief or understanding that we as a people and a nation have the right to be loyal to the Holy Ones before all others, including the United States of America, since we as a people existed long before there was ever a United States.

Taos, New Mexico: Taos is a very close knit community, and even more so at Taos Pueblo nearby. Both have had many citizens serve in America's military in the heartfelt belief that they are protecting our nation. One of our honored tribal elders is Tony Reyna, 97, who survived the Bataan Death March in World War II. I have been told many times that, for us, the idea of protection goes deeper than for most Americans, because this land is where our people emerged, and that any threat to it is met from a place of deep, deep meaning. People here celebrate Independence Day pretty much as they do everywhere. It's a day off, and there are parades and fireworks displays. But for many we remember WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, and the sacrifices our people made. I wish all people could remember that, especially those who allow blind bigotry and hate to cloud their judgment.
Parshall, North Dakota, and the Three Affiliated Tribes: The 4th is the celebration of independence, which Native people have practiced as sovereign nations for generations.

Shawnee, Oklahoma: No, I do not celebrate Independence Day, simply because the Declaration of Independence labels my people "our enemies, the merciless savages of our frontiers." You notice they were already calling the frontiers "ours" when the land was not theirs. Because I do not celebrate Independence Day does not mean I am not proud of our Native American veterans and soldiers. I am very proud of them and of the fact almost all Native American families have a family member who is a veteran and/or an active member in the Armed Forces.

Anadarko, Oklahoma: I am Kiowa/Delaware/Absentee Shawnee, my mom is a Kiowa/Comanche, my uncle is a vet, as many of my other relatives are, as well as my stepdad (Comanche/Caddo). My Delaware grandma always said, “This is not our holiday. Out of respect we will honor their day, because our people helped them.” She said, “I will mourn on this day.” She would wear a black dress that day.

Laguna, New Mexico, and the Pueblos of Acoma and Laguna: I celebrate the 4th of July and I do so proudly. … When you have been lucky enough to travel and see life in other places, you come to appreciate the home and land you live on. Maybe I'm not as bitter as some of my other Indigenous brothers and sisters because my tribes were not relocated and have been lucky to remain on ancestral lands. Our Pueblo people … fought against the Spanish in the Pueblo Revolt, but also learned to harmonize with the Catholic Church. Many years—even centuries—of healing have taken place to get us to this point. And I think by celebrating the 4th of July, I feel I am honoring that healing my Pueblo ancestors have prayed for. …

Sawmill, Arizona, and the Navajo Nation: I recognize Independence Day as a day off, as time with family. I recognize that the United States declared its independence on that day, but Native people weren't a part of their envisioned emancipation. As Native people, we recognized our independence through our prayers and practicing our traditions. We didn't need a special day to mark our freedom, we just were. So on the 4th of July, I will practice my American heritage and celebrate this country's Independence Day. But my heart knows I don't need a day to recognize my autonomy.

Oklahoma City and the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma: I think of the 4th of July as American Ideals Day. If only America would live up to its own stated ideals, none of what happened to American Indian people would have happened. Today, if those ideals were finally acted upon, American Indian sovereignty would be fully recognized and the treaties would be kept intact. The fireworks celebrate the great ideals that could be America, if only greed were not allowed to pervert them.

Norman, Oklahoma: My 13-year-old son (Comanche/Cherokee) is currently reading the U.S. Constitution (just because). When I asked him about the 4th the other day, he kind of shook his head and said that most people just don't get it. Reading the comment above on American Ideals Day made me think of how true it is—how little we know about America's ideals of the past and where we hold them now.

Wichita, Kansas: My people, Kiowas, have always held this time of the year as a gathering of all our bands. They would celebrate for a week, indulging in each society’s dances, renewing friendships, visiting relatives, and so on. As we progressed into this modern society we are a part of, we recognized the importance of this celebration even more so. To honor our freedoms and the men and women who sacrificed for us today is truly a reason to celebrate the 4th of July. Does it mean we are to forget our struggles and the plight of our people? NO, but it commemorates the beauty of our land and the resolve of this nation we call America.

Pawnee, Oklahoma: [It's a day] to celebrate all our Native men and women who served in the Armed Forces of the United States of America, our Native men [the Codetalkers] without whose tribal language, [World War II] might have been lost. To honor our fallen ones, who sacrificed their lives for us, and the veterans who are buried in our tribal cemeteries… and overseas. To honor my daughter … in the U.S. Army, a proud Native American woman who is serving our country.

Waikoloa, Hawai'i, via the Red Cloud Indian School, Pine Ridge, South Dakota: It is a sad time, … thinking of all the treaties never honored. I try to hold my children and grandcubs near and invite others who are alone or ill or elderly to eat lots of food that I cook until I am very tired and thank the Creator for another wonderful day.

As Americans everywhere celebrate the 4th of July, I think about how many American Indians are taking their yearly vacations back to their reservations and home communities. All across Indian country, tribes hold modern celebrations— including powwows, rodeos, and homecomings—that coincide with the United States’ Independence Day celebrations.
As for me, I’ll be with my two daughters, and we'll watch a huge fireworks display!

Dennis Zotigh (Kiowa/San Juan Pueblo/Santee Dakota Indian) is a writer and cultural specialist at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian in Washington, D.C.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 12:34 pm
THANK YOU, Dandelion. Very timely, necessary post.

I just have this LITTLE NIT-PICKING COMMENT on the article! In the interest of COMPLETE HISTORICAL ACCURACY!!!
"Most famously, Benally cited the World War II Navajo code talkers, who helped transmit sensitive military information using their all but impenetrable local language."
NOPE, it was NOT the Navajo Language - that could have eventually been looked up by some Anthropologist who could have translated, broken the Code IF IT WAS ONLY THE LANGUAGE.

The famous Navajo "Code Talkers" MADE UP, INVENTED AN EXTREMELY COMPLICATED SECRET CODE, *BASED ON* THE NAVAJO LANGUAGE. The entire complicated code had to be MEMORIZED by every Talker, as they could not risk any written explanation falling into the hands of enemies. The Code was BASED ON Navajo not English or any "familiar" language - many words had FOUR POSSIBLE SYMBOLS that could be used interchangeably, so that any potential hearer of the Code wouldn't find one word being used too often and be able to make guesses from that! The Code was ENTIRELY INVENTED by the Navajos, and to invent a TRULY UNBREAKABLE CODE takes GENIUS!!!!!
There, that was my NIT-PICKING CONTRIBUTION to complete Historical Accuracy.
It is OFTEN stated that the Code was "the Navajo Language", which makes the Code Talkers "nothing special", just speakers of their own native language! But, in fact, THEY WERE SO MUCH, MUCH MORE....!

fly bird (26)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 9:42 pm
thanks for posting this article, Dandleion, ****************, and as BMutiny said, very timely.

Thanks, also, for the information Dandelion, and many comments.

Out of stars.


fly bird (26)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 9:43 pm
Like Thanksgiving or Columbus Day, there is another side to Independence Day, which — as the fireworks pierce the skies during this year's festivities — deserves some serious consideration.

from artticle

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday July 2, 2016, 11:14 pm
"We also know that our Founding Fathers were not perfect.
They were human, but that should not devalue the great things that they did either.
We are always striving as a country for a more perfect union.
Our past was not always something to be proud of, but what about the good that was done and that we continue to try to do more and more of it.

Why so much vitriol?
Why the wish to shut down others opinions that differ from yours or to be nasty towards those you do not agree with, Darren?"

I have a number of issues and questions with your original message here:

0. "We also know that our Founding Fathers were not perfect.
They were human, but that should not devalue the great things that they did either.
- You're happy with the fact that Thomas Jefferson BRED SLAVES?

1. 'The United States has striven for a more perfect union.'
- With whom?
- Why does the United States (and Britain for that matter) feel the need to dictate to every other country what it should and shouldn't do, and then by extension, every other country engages by telling every other country what it would like to do, or not do. . . do you see a pattern there. . .
- Perfection doesn't exist. . . main reason human egoism, competitiveness, aggression
- The United States invests in more Military weapons than ANY OTHER COUNTRY on the planet, whilst there are people living in poverty. . . why is this?
- Bernie Sanders has repeated made this point. Hillary Clinton never has. Why is this?
- You're happy that the U.S. has financiers who make MILLIONS, whilst objecting to a $15 Minimum Living Wage. This really does make a mockery of any perfect union.

2. Our past was not always something to be proud of, but what about the good that was done and that we continue to try to do more and more of it.
- Destabilizing other countries in order to control their precious resources isn't my idea of America doing anything good. . . examples, Iraq, Nicaragua, Nigeria. ALL have huge resource, Oil, minerals.

3. Why so much vitriol?
- Yes, why does the U.S. Christian right hate women who want choice on abortion,
- Why does the U.S. have such an issue with blacks and other ethnic groups
- Why does the U.S. right think that Islam is an entire fundamentalist death squad
- Why does the U.S continue to engage with countries whose treatment of women is APPALLING (Saudi Arabia)

4. Why the wish to shut down others opinions that differ from yours or to be nasty towards those you do not agree with, Darren?"
- Think you'll find that anyone who disagrees with me, usually ends up unfriending me (John W., Diane O.), then removing me from their groups, not the other way around.
- Think you'll find that anyone who disagrees with me, usually ends up calling me a commie, leftie, hippie

Think you'll also find, that since I follow Gurdjieff and Mark Passio's work, that I don't THREATEN people, as some right-wingers have done (Ray C. a fellow Brit, who has had issues with some of your right-wing views himself), and don't have a gun with which to shoot someone dead, because I DON'T NEED a DAMN Gun.
- Think you'll also find that any perception of "nasty" is in response to "nasty" being projected by those who seek to control, dominate and enjoy their lifestyle at the expense of others. I have ZERO wish to control, dominate anyone, or anything. I have little or any vanity or egoism to protect.

Finally for this message. . . I have an issue with the "right-wing" mindset existing in the minds of people, who think it's okay to benefit at the expense of others, who think their way of life better than others and worth fighting and killing for. I have an issue with ANYONE who thinks guns are an okay thing.

Humankind is slowly (and sometimes not so slowly) destroying itself, other people and the environment, because the right-wing mindset of Corporate Capitalism is a destructive force, which seeks profit and control over everything at the expense of people living a more balanced healthier lifestyle.

I don't doubt that some Indigenous populations had some savagery within them; this is the way of people and groups/gangs. However, they have not acted like the people you seem to admire, your forefathers who engaged in widespread murder and effectively genocide. This has continue to the present day, and if you can celebrate 4th July as an Independence, I'd sure like to know WHAT you believe you're independent from?

Anne P (174)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 8:15 am
Thank you, Sheryl for sharing this informative and important article.

. (0)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 8:30 am
If I may step in for a moment or two, Darren, I accept what you say, and I am very well aware that yourself was block by the host and co-host named as,you correctly stated, but may just say, once Sandy noticed what you were going through and how rough you were been treated at the time, and as Sandy had gone through a similar treatment Sandy felt sorry for yourself and invited yourself in another Political Group with herself,
in addition, Sandy suffered just like yourself in the same group, the only difference, as yourself suffered for a few weeks, Sandy suffered for a few years, I know this because I was there in the same group witnessing how she was been treated.
I accept myself and Sandy have had a number of disagreements but on the other hand we have had a number of agreements also , this what is called debate, but I don't allow a trusted friendship suffer, due to a debate,
a few days ago I was block by a Ownership of political as you and Sandy are very well aware of, but I was block not for something I said as such, or for my approach,
the Ownership of the Group who blocked myself, as the Ownership thought it was all right to insult and abuse members of a different country, I would called this not only a Violation of care 2 code of conduct, and threatening behavior, but possible Racist Element against members of another Country,
I was block for my intention of reporting the matter to Care under the Care 2 Code of Conduct as I was not going to allow myself, yourself or our Country to be insulted, even as recently as 2 days ago the same Ownership of the same group was allowing to continue, to insult our Country,
in say this however, we must remember not all ownership of groups are the same, There are many Ownership of Group on Care 2 who are like Sandy, Very respectable and Decent, so lets keep Political Question and Matters in Political Groups and not Public.
I Hope all Americans be it Native or otherwise have a lovely, enjoyable 4th July and log may it continue, thank you,


Sandra S (40)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 10:19 am
"You're happy with the fact that Thomas Jefferson BRED SLAVES?"

I already answered that in the negative.

“I have ZERO wish to control, dominate anyone, or anything. I have little or any vanity or egoism to protect.”


Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 10:48 am
As the Native Americans have little opportunity to present their points of view may we cease as it is going off topic. Whatever you choose to do on the 4th please do it safely. Also remember to keep pets inside as the fireworks bother them and for fireworks please be satisfied with the ones sponsored by communities. Our Veterans across this land suffer from PTSD and fireworks being shot off in neighborhoods is most unsettling for them. Thanks......

Angelika R (143)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 1:50 pm
Wise words as always from the post owner here, thx Sheryl! Yes, thread has turned somewhat unpleasant.
Sorry, off-topic as well, but one more suggestion for the 4th brought to all by RootsAction and is worth sharing:
'This July 4th: Support a drone whistleblower'

If you've not received that email alert, I can't and won't c/p the entire body of it here. Nor will I post the donation link with it. And if you have received it, please do read the emotional words, including the linked article in the Guardian:

Judi posted yesterday a link about Obama's released drone report, can't remember/find which of the stories she posted it, but, I am sure it will NOT reflect the full truth.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 2:18 pm
I didn't need to state what seems to me to be the blindingly obvious, so happy to continue with the raised awareness of your original article, Dandelion.

Reshared to spread awareness.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 2:29 pm
One of the fascinating aspects of Indigenous Populations, American, African, Australian, etc., is that there have a strong, solid culture and connection with Mother Earth, and respect for the land and its resources.

That's something we can all learn from.

Sandra S (40)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 3:40 pm

“…not everything that every Indian tribe did was wonderfully earth-wise and conservation-minded. The Anasazi of Chaco Canyon probably helped to ruin their environment and destroy their own civilization through deforestation. In the potlatch the Kwakiutl regularly burned heaps of canoes, blankets and other possessions simply to prove their superiority to each other; the potlatch is the archetypal example of wanton overconsumption for status. Even the noble plains Indians often killed far more bisons than they needed, in drives of up to 900 animals.

In other words, the Indians were not an alien race of impossibly wonderful people. They were human just like the rest of us. And in that lies hope….”

margaret cochran (41)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 8:34 pm

fly bird (26)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 8:35 pm
Fourth of July: “Put Away the Flags”

Remembering Howard Zinn on July 4th

This article was first published by The Progressive and Global Research in July 2010

On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism — that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder — one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking — cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on — have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours — huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction — what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early.

When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: “Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession.”

When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: “It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day.”

On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our “Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence.” After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: “We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country.”

It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.

We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, “to civilize and Christianize” the Filipino people.

As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: “The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness.”

We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.

Yet they are victims, too, of our government’s lies.

How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for “liberty,” for “democracy”?

One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.

We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.

Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, was the author of the best-selling “A People’s History of the United States” (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project in 2006.

Howard Zinn died on January 7 2010. Please read Matthew Rothschild’s “Thank you, Howard Zinn,” for more about his legacy.

The original source of this article is The Progressive

Patricia N (9)
Sunday July 3, 2016, 8:36 pm
Thanks Dandelion. I did not know that was in the U.S. D.O.I.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday July 4, 2016, 12:22 am
BMutiny has posted an excellent video article from The Real News website:
Pledging Allegiance to the Denial of the Racist History of America

Jonathan Harper (0)
Monday July 4, 2016, 1:22 am

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday July 4, 2016, 1:40 am
Thanks Dandelion for this excellent article and your perfect comments as well. I always find it kind of disgusting when people try to justify their wrongdoings (or the ones of their countries political leaders) by pointing fingers at others ... not only can such wrong behavior NEVER be used as justification to spread terror and death ... in pointing one finger at others three always point back at "you".

All the more I do like and value your comment:
"This is true, no one race or heritage is perfect, but then the Indian people didn't go to anyone else's land and take over and subject that population to honor the same people that massacred them (ie Columbus Day) and take all their land and then declare it theirs, force the people already there to move or die, then declare Independence from another Country when they already had a home where they had come from. If they truly wanted a "new" place to live they should of assimilated with the population that already lived on the North American continent, who were wonderful caretakers of the land. I bet this Country would be in a far better place today if they had. "

The 4th of July is for me at best a day to remember all the victims (inside what is today known as America as well as in the countless countries it invaded and occupied either itself or by proxy war) who lost their lives to the hegemonic drive of the US, its desire to dominate everyone and everything and to secure and steal the resources of other countries.

I know that one day this empire will fall too - it cracks/crumbles already at the edges - and I do hope that after its collapse people will understand that we ALL are the same and equal with the same human rights and that only together can we truly move forward.

With great respect to all those who lost their lives or dear ones to this and/or because of this monster called US Military-Industrial-Empire. May they rest in peace and ...

.... may the memories of those millions who got killed for personal and corporate greed and in pursuit of a personal agenda haunt those responsible till the end of time!

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday July 4, 2016, 1:43 am

A special thank you also to Darren, Angelika, BMutiny and Jess for great comments, links and articles!!

Green Stars all around!!!

Jonathan Harper (0)
Monday July 4, 2016, 4:20 am

Peggy B (43)
Monday July 4, 2016, 8:10 am
Thought provoking article. Thanks for sharing. Excellent comments.

Sheryl G (359)
Monday July 4, 2016, 12:09 pm
We use to have a lot more Native American voices on C2. But whenever they posted something it was always marked by someone telling them that one Nation or another, that had nothing to do with their Nation were in fact also flawed in some way.

Always pulling something out of the past that had nothing to do with CURRENT ways of thinking and how a particular post was trying to bring to light a minority point of view that so few in Dominant Culture thinks on.

We've lost many of those Native voices on C2 because time and time again instead of trying to learn what was being presented, trying to overcome years of embedded racism or lack of understanding, trying to overcome an educational system that relegates the native experience to Thanksgiving and perhaps the Trial of Tears if lucky, we get exactly what happened on this thread.

Thank you for not failing to present some more of it on the is hard when one is only 2% of the population to get one's point of view out, but we must be reminded that somewhere in the dustbins of the history that out of 500 Nations that existed one of those Nation burned canoes and blankets. Is kind of like saying in Africa because one tribal Nation did something in the Congo that was representative to the entire continent of Africa.

It was because of the steady voices of the Native Americans, throughout the years, and most of them that did have a high respect for the environment that eventually their voices were heard and some in Dominant Culture picked up on that and pushed for major parks to be kept as they were which led to things like Earth Day and to more entrenched govt. programs like the Clean Water Act so on and so forth.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday July 4, 2016, 12:41 pm
Alas, Dandelion, the right-wing fraternity, deeply embedded in their illusion of the American model built by the savage Founding Fathers, WILL ALWAYS find one story to contradict AN ENTIRE history of culture. It's called Confirmation Bias.

The same diseased mindset is responsible for painting EVERY Muslim on the planet as a terrorist just because a few Death Cults/Sects exist that get very good coverage in mainstream press/media.

Sheryl G (359)
Monday July 4, 2016, 1:29 pm
Within this article, which I though was very fair and balanced, if the readers were to actually go through the full article it presented viewpoint from two very different ways of looking at Independence Day and I'm sure there are a lot of Native people who fall somewhere in the middle of the two views.

One who is Oglala Lakota and Chicano, of whom has a duo heritage, saw the holiday of Independence Day as a celebration of genocide so didn't observe it and went grocery shopping instead as the stores were fairly empty.

The other person from the Navajo Nation, despite committed atrocities against their Nation and people, are proud of their service to the US during the World Wars and feel good about flying the flag and joining in on the celebrations. As he said, we are all in this boat together now we need to all be together to solve the many problems that need to be addressed.

In this Nation at this time of too easy to jump to conclusions about who is our enemy, who among us does not deserve to be called American, if we look to our past, if we acknowledge the mistakes made, perhaps there will not be these same mistakes made in the future. That is what healing is all about. Times like this, if we can move out of our comfort zone and look from the eyes of another, we might not be so rash to say or do things that only make matters worse.

If we look at our history, warts and all, we can gain a wealth of understanding and we can use it as a true learning curve that can bring us forward as a people so that we can truly be that "beacon" that lady liberty holds in her hand rather than it being a club to whack someone or group of people with.

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday July 4, 2016, 4:25 pm
Thanks Dandelion for your sincere comments which I feel come straight from your heart. And thanks to Darren for the additional point re Confirmation Bias. It makes ones own life sooo much easier, doesn't it ... ;-)?

"... if we can move out of our comfort zone and look from the eyes of another, we might not be so rash to say or do things that only make matters worse."

You're at times a dreamer too, Dandelion ... or shall I say ... still?! That's much too dangerous as it would mean we would have to try to truly learn to understand the "other" ... which could lead to compassion and empathy ... worse yet to "fraternization" and realizing that we're all so much alike - and God and the Holy Spirit may stop this as it would hamper the ideas of our "leaders and politicians". And we can't have that ... can we?!

We're only allowed to look at our good history and the rest is brushed over or covered-up with all kind of "necessities" like homeland security, protecting our Christian values, protecting our heritage (which one in the case of America anyway?!), protecting our life style or the best of all: protecting freedom and democracy.

It is sad that obviously so many Native Americans have left Care2 and I can fully understand why. I've been told a while ago - when I was wondering why we practically don't have any Muslim voices on Care2 - that there used to be quite a number of Muslim members and that they left for very similar reasons.

In both cases very telling and it is not positive!

Stay safe, my dear friend - one day ...


Maryann S (111)
Monday July 4, 2016, 5:39 pm
Great article (and posts), thanks for sharing Dandelion!

Past Member (0)
Monday July 4, 2016, 6:25 pm
There is reason not to celebrate any manmade holiday. This is certainly one. You can imagine how odd it is to realize I have Indian blood and John Adams also. Adams said we should always celebrate our hard won freedoms and rights with fireworks, parades, etc.. Ah well. My husband and I don't truly celebrate much anymore. I think whenever the feeling hits, just celebrate surviving through what this planet has become and offers for air to breathe, water to drink, food to ingest--and always remember with honor, the original true human beings and the way Earth was and should still be. Thanks Dandelion.

Dawnie W (250)
Tuesday July 5, 2016, 12:29 am
❤️ Thanking you kindly for sharing this information❤️
💕💛ღ❤️Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ💕♥L💜ve, Hugs and Peace go with you all♥💕Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ❤️ღ💛💕

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday July 5, 2016, 12:40 am

I don't want to rub it in ... but THIS is a very upsetting history whitewashing at its best … from someone I didn’t expect it.

I'm not sure whether it's the overall hypocrisy, the lies about the troops ... calling the genocide on the Native Indians an "incredible lucky miracle" (translated by me), the lie about having to continue the fight for independence ... the overall fact that all people on stage are African Americans of which one woman is very much like the little puppet on a string ... I don't know - but this is definitely NOT the America I used to know, love and respect.

Joy T (443)
Tuesday July 5, 2016, 3:42 am
:( I never knew that was there. I am so sorry. It REALLY should be removed! Grrr!

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday July 5, 2016, 3:33 pm
Hey folks. . . how's this for your "Right to Freedom of Speech"?

I've just found out I'm been removed from Former Silent Majority. I presume by either Michael A. or Sandra S.

Doesn't matter of course, but says a lot about the right-wing mindset regarding "freedom of speech"

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday July 5, 2016, 6:10 pm
Sorry if it was this thread that broke the camel's or shall I say buffalo.

Sandra S (40)
Wednesday July 6, 2016, 10:01 am
Darren, take note-


“We believe in free speech. However, many people don't understand what that means. The US Constitution, in the 1st amendment, spells out our right to free speech. That free speech is for you to be able to say anything about the govt without fear of retaliation. It does not mean you can walk into someone's home and start being rude all you want without being asked to leave. This group is a private group and as such is like our home. You are free to speak your mind as long as you are not directly and intentionally insulting others. If you do, you will be given a warning and if you continue you will be invited to leave. It is possible to debate issues with opposing sides without resorting to name calling or belittling one another.”

Care2 Code of Conduct:

"Conduct / Reporting abuse We would like everyone to feel welcome to express their opinions and ideas on our boards without concern about being attacked for them. For this reason it is very important that everyone engage in these boards in a respectful and understanding manner. While disagreements are a natural part of debate, and we do encourage different opinions, we do not tolerate abusive or disrespectful posts on our boards. If you disagree with someones opinion, you are free to debate the position or argue against a viewpoint, but it is not appropriate to attack or belittle the person making the statement or presenting their opinion. You can view our Code of Conduct for a complete listing of acceptable behavior on our boards. You can also view this from the homepage of any group by clicking on Read Code of Conduct below the discussions on the group home page."

Dandelion, don't be sorry because it has nothing to do with this thread. The problem was a long ongoing one. He ignored warnings repeatedly. A common problem with him in all the conservative right-wing groups he belongs or belonged to. He was invited to join our group after he was kicked out of another. He proceeded to wear our his welcome quickly by his negative, ugly attitude towards those who disagreed with him. He was given not one, but multiple warnings which he continually ignored.

Sandra S (40)
Wednesday July 6, 2016, 10:51 am

2.You will not transmit through the Service any unlawful, harassing, libelous, abusive, threatening, harmful, vulgar, obscene or otherwise objectionable material of any kind or nature.

All our staff unanimously voted him out.

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday July 6, 2016, 11:45 am
I just wished that the complaintants had found another area of C2 to resolve their issues.

As I said earlier as the Native population is so small it is very hard to have the voices heard and too many times it turns into something that Dominant Culture wants to air rather than it being a learning curve for Dominant Culture.

Sandra S (40)
Wednesday July 6, 2016, 12:20 pm
I fully agree, but Darren keeps going on the attack. He is calling out specific people and groups. It would be nice if he'd stop.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday July 7, 2016, 12:17 am
Shared your original news article over social media to spread awareness, Dandelion

Plus there's the article that BMutiny posted:

Thomas Jefferson: America's Founding Sociopath

Direct link:
Thomas Jefferson: America's Founding Sociopath

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday July 7, 2016, 12:41 am
Added to that, this article posted by Dandelion, a 12 minute video with some home truths, from Bernie Sanders:

Bernie Sanders Powerful Warning For The Democratic Establishment

Direct link:
Bernie Sanders' Powerful Warning For The Democratic Establishment

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday July 7, 2016, 1:46 am
Also check out one of many Abby Martin Empire Files on the USA's incessant thirst for territorial control and war.

Empire Files Episode 32: James Risen & Abby Martin on Fighting Censorship, Endless War. Empire Files Episode 32

Direct link:

NYT’s James Risen & Abby Martin on Fighting Censorship, Endless War // Empire_File032

Angelika R (143)
Thursday July 7, 2016, 5:47 am
That Bernie NYT article also got posted here somewhere on the multiple threads, Darren.

Past Member (0)
Friday July 8, 2016, 4:15 pm

Past Member (0)
Friday July 8, 2016, 4:32 pm

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 12:46 am

Sorry, Dandelion, but this comment of Elaine of Friday July 8, 2016, 4:15 pm cannot be left unanswered. Haven’t the Native Indians suffered enough? Hasn’t their knowledge, heritage, traditions and cultures been destroyed enough? Now one wants to even re-write their history … rather take it away from them?

Also in light – or especially because of what I’ve learned about the history of Native Americans mainly through your highly interesting and very accurate articles, links and references this re-invention of history leaves me simply perplex. Never in my life have I read such a gross distortion and falsification of history or the Bible for that matter. Not the most “patriotic” modern-time Americans and not even the most indoctrinated, brainwashed Zionists have ever dared to present such outrageous lies. Chutzpah doesn’t cut it.

I wonder how come that the ugliest living Zionist of all hasn’t come up with this? Those Jews/Israelites must have been massacred by some pre-historic “anti-Semites” of which even Netanyahu, AIPAC and ADL combined aren’t aware of! Goes in line with the claim she made some years ago that Iraq smuggled WMD’s through Sinai into Gazan tunnels (and through Israel by default) into Syria during the Gulf War … fits the bill perfectly.

Obviously the sky is the limit. One should really stop saying “How stupid can you get?” because some people do take this as a challenge …


Sam H (410)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 1:23 am
Now I feel like the husband--the last to know! Thanks Eleonora for the forward! It's going to take me a while to read all the comments, but I'm glad I'm here already!

Arild Gone for now (174)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 2:07 am

Who Were The First Americans?

fly bird (26)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 2:36 am
bookmarked -many comments to read for now. Thank you for sharing.

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 4:17 am
Frankly - I fail to see how questioning whether the Native Americans were the VERY First People is of any relevance at all here!

From that interesting link provided by Arild: "The researchers believe Luzia was part of a people, referred to as "Paleoamericans," who migrated into the Americas—possibly even by boat—long before the Mongoloid people. These Paleoamericans may later have been wiped out by or interbred with Mongoloids invading from the north. "

So - there was probable interbreeding with PaleoAmericans ...
But archaeological data & carbon dating places the Native Americans in the land 11,000 years before it was settled by Europeans ... Long before the Hebrews migrated from Egypt (or even TO Egypt), yet many people fully support Israeli claims that the Jewish people have a claim to the land between the Med & the Jordan River ... although many of the Jews spread out & moved to other places of their own choice during the time of the Roman Empire.

Should one be able to use progress in DNA analysis to pin down the origin of those PaleoAmericans - &/or to where they then emigrated - would that give them rights to move into the US & claim "First People" rights over the Native Americans, and, of course, all those who immigrated in the last approx 400 years?

NONE of which changes the reality of the losses faced by the people who had been living in the lands now called the USA (and Canada) for 11,000 years - for whom first the English (later, British) occupation & then the immigrants declaration of independence from the British represents the LOSS of their independence.

And incidentally - hindsight is always 20::20 vision. But judging people of 200 years ago on the basis of today's values is an exercise in futility. Unless, of course, one is trying to perpetuate the values of that time on the basis that since such values were the "norm" then, they should be accepted as "normal" today.

We all have the burden of decisions & acts of our ancestors that are not in keeping with our views on human rights today. Sometimes, it isn't even those of our ancestors, but those of people that our society has placed in authority ... Denial of wrongs (past or present) solves nothing, it only perpetuates suffering. Recognition doesn't eliminate the hurt & harm - but it does allow a start to genuine reconciliation, which allows people to move forward.

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 8:09 am
Ros, :>)

My understanding is that the Native Americans have never really shared the concept of "ownership" in relation to the land! There's that superb letter of Chief Seattle on the subject! They shared the space with the land, the waters, the sun, the rain, the animals ... and had some flexible understanding of which tribes occupied which space on the continent (with occasional disagreements between themselves?!).

So the Native Americans are the last people to present OWNERSHIP as part of their claim!

Ros - yes, the Australian First People are OLD people - and even on the basis of their millennia old history, North America is relatively "NEW" world! :>)

Sandra S (40)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 9:14 am
" One should really stop saying “How stupid can you get?” "

Ignorant does not mean stupid. There's a difference.

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 10:34 am
My mind is still boggling by the incredible tall travel story of how, somehow, the Israelites arrived (from precisely 428 years enslaved in Egypt) before the Native Americans (over 11,400 years ago!!!! Before even the very first pyramid was built in Egypt, which was just under 5,000 years ago ...)!!

From Egypt to the Caucusus, through European continents to Canada (how did they get there? Did the Atlantic open up to provide a dry passage there, too???) - and since when is Canada not part of the North American continent??

So the Israelites were the PaleoAmericans?? WOW - why claim Palestine for the State of Israel, in that case???

And, what's more, they would have mastered time travel, since the Exodus from Egypt ties to the time of the Pharoahs ... and the first Pharoah dates from only a little over 5,000 years ago ( over 6,000 years AFTER the arrival of the Native Americans - and it seems that the PaleoAmericans predated the Native Americans ...)

And having reached America, they then went all the way back to the lands next to Egypt, to claim them as their "Promised Land"??

I wouldn't worry about minor matters such as typing errors!!

(Sandra - this goes beyond ignorance - Eleonora was right!)

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 10:39 am
Which doesn't change the fact that, with 11,400 years of CONTINUOUS presence (OK, Ros - much less than the Australian First Nations' proven history!! But still, noteworthy!!) I reckon the Native Americans have the right to consider themselves "First" - at least of all those mixed backgrounds that constitute the peoples of the North American Continent!!

And they came across a land bridge ... not from Europe to Canada!

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 3:40 pm

Arild, Ros, Evelyn - lots of Green Stars to you, my dear friends ***************************

And some extra for Arild for this very interesting link (no jealousy, Ros and Evelyn ;-) ...) ******************

You wait and see, Ros - somehow ... once they reached America the waters opened up and provided dry passage (again!!) over to Australia! If you'd only bother to check properly, you'd find somewhere in a cave traces of Elaine's "Israelites" - LOL.

Evelyn - I just love your comment of Saturday July 9, 2016, 10:34 am!! I just wish I'd kept a copy of that exchange in 2011 (if memory serves me right) were Elaine claimed in a C2 article that Sadam Hussein smuggled his WMD's via Sinai into Gaza (via the tunnel network) through Israel and Lebanon up into Syria. It was equally ... ingenious - LOL!

On a serious note: the letter by Chief Seattle is really telling where he speaks about sharing the space with the land, the waters, the sun, the rain, the animals ... when did we become so selfish and decided everything in our path has to be "owned"? We're all just visitors here and will leave one day the very same way we came: naked. So what's all the fuss about this possession? Care-taking would fit it but this is something we would first have to re-learn.

Stay all safe!!

Angelika R (143)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 3:51 pm
Perhaps corporations like TUI-Thompson also have boggled minds over how to include such unique travel options in their season's offer for the wealthier tourist customers! ?

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday July 9, 2016, 11:55 pm
Wilful ignorance is choosing to believe in a predicated narrative, because you arrogantly cling to a perspective which suits and fits in with your own selfish lifestyle.

That's pretty stupid.

ALL Native, Indigenous People's of ANY country have more of a right of claim to land than anyone who simply lands there and decides to colonize. Colonizers are arrogantly stupid, disconnected from a connection with the actual environment.

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 1:10 am

Darren - you are in top-notch form today!! ******************* Do you terribly mind if I keep your comment for future reference or even use .... naturally attributing the copyright to you ;-)?

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 1:22 am

Ros, my dear friend - I can't thank you enough for the links to these maps. I'm still astonished to see that "America" was totally populated. Yet there are still those idiotic, brainwashed apologists for this genocide on the Native Americans (sorry but there are no better words) who claim that the continent was only thinly population and only on the coastlines and even have the audacity to doubt the 100 Million victims!!

But all hell breaks lose if one puts a question mark behind the 6 Mio Jews killed during the Nazi Holocaust which claimed a total of 11 Mio victims (the 5 Mio we don't hear of as they don't count). Can anyone make sense of this bigotry?

Would you also happen to know how many died during the colonization of Australia and in order to make room for the invaders?


As for those 400+ Israelites who were released by Egypt ... could one conclude that actually (ancient) Egypt brought them over to America? The route Elaine tells us is not really feasible ... but with some sturdy boats ... that could mean that Egypt actually discovered America and therefore it should belong to ... Egypt ... non? As I said - the sky is the limit; but this is just a side note.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 1:36 am
Eleonora, feel free to quote from anything I say :-)

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 3:28 am
Ros - Egypt's first unification was around BC 3,100. But (limited numbers of) documents & objects indicate that people were there, with an evolving society, over the previous 2 millennia, leading to development of the Two Kingdoms (North & South) which coexisted - & fought - for 3-4 centuries before unification. The two kingdoms are symbolised in the Pharaonic crown.
SO - still 4,000 years AFTER the Native Americans arrived!

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 4:16 am
You've got it, Ros!!!

Unless, of course, they'd mastered time travel ...
And then forgot about it (couldn't sell enough tickets?)

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 4:24 am
So - let's agree that the Native Americans are TRULY Native ... they didn't even move away for a couple of thousand years, they may even have absorbed some of the PaleoAmericans in their bloodlines -
And as such, it is totally disrespectful to deny them their status, and the reality of their mistreatment by (relatively) very recent immigrants, who try to whitewash and celebrate their arrival.

Just as it is totally disrespectful to try to deny & strip of their identity and their heritage ANY people with deep roots in a land in which their ancestors have continuously lived & worked.

Getting past such denial is essential for peace and healthy coexistence.

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 6:40 am
Maybe Ur was actually Uranus, Ros????;=D Not Chaldees at all??
Might explain the time travel ... & would fit with the second part of the title - "An Overlooked History"

But I still want to come back to the main story - and the rights of the Native Americans to consider themselves First People, whose history is all too often denied & overlooked.
(As with the young Native Indian whose University Professor denied their history, kicked her out of the class
for daring to question his - white, official - narrative ... - can't remember the title, but I think Dandelion posted it late last year.)

fly bird (26)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 10:33 am
I am out of stars for all the great comments. Thank you for posting the responses of native americans.

I appreciate reading all of them!! Dandelion, Ros, Evelyn, I can't send more stars********* so here.

(don't see relevance of some remarks, and capitols, but I'll be back, to read more. Best to stick to what this is about - 'independence' from? and 'freedoms' for?, IMHO.)

fly bird (26)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 10:36 am
Correction - That is, Native Americans!!


Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 4:46 pm

Ros - thanks for the info in your comment of Sunday July 10, 2016, 2:28 am; it's everywhere more or less the same when it comes to the native people or indigenous people. We see the ripping out of pages of the history books everywhere - the US, Australia, Diego Garcia, Palestine ... but people do remember and the truth will not go away. There are too many history books; they can't destroy all of them.

Other than that - you two beloved friends, Evelyn and Ros ;-) - thanks for the chuckle and laughter I had reading your last comments. Especially also Evelyn's time travel theory and the failed ticket sales - LOL!!

What does come as (no) surprise is the fact that Elaine went silent and disappeared ... LOL!

fly bird (26)
Sunday July 10, 2016, 6:24 pm
Eleonora, says it all. ****************

Evelyn, Ros, Dandelion *****************

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday July 11, 2016, 12:18 am
Brilliant analysis, thanks for sharing the link, Ros.

Interesting how it's the human (controlling) component that seeks to make out of something, more, which actually matters far less, than humankind would like it to, when applied to nature and wildlife.

There is also a parallel between wild/feral/domesticated animals, and humans who like to classify themselves in terms of class and background, when in fact, that classification in the great scheme of life is irrelevant also.

So a species being (animal or human) thrives in a particular area, and then might instinctively decide to migrate/move, due to their innate sense of "reading" of an environment.

The human component of control and territorial conquest really muddies the waters here, as there's a natural predilection within some to explore any environment, and/or cultivate the land, etc., and this human egoistic need to simply control.

Evelyn B (63)
Monday July 11, 2016, 2:14 am
The "horse" debate - very interesting, Ros! Thanks!

It does sound like another example of stealing/ erasing part of a people's heritage in order to strengthen the white-washing & "legitimisation" of the late-comers!

fly bird (26)
Monday July 11, 2016, 12:39 pm
Sure does. Thank you for sharing, Ros.

Nancy C (806)
Tuesday July 12, 2016, 2:55 pm
ty my friend. can't give stars for some reason...edited my reading on the thread...truth does get lost.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday July 13, 2016, 1:36 pm
Another excellent posted article from Dandelion to corroborate the fact the America of today is a seething mass of Corporate Capitalist war mongering dysfunctionality

These Corporations Will Stop No One in The Political Class Will Make Them Stop It Is Up To Us

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday July 14, 2016, 4:04 am
Maybe the Native Americans should claim Mongolia as their homeland, as it was the homeland of their ancestors, and they live under discrimination & denial - they deserve their own homeland, free of such discrimination!

And there are hardly any people there to object to such a takeover ...

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday July 14, 2016, 6:02 am
Oh Evelyn - there are some 3 Mio Mongolians!! My friend Uyanga would definitely not like it if her family would be displaced ... or do you think they could live peacefully together? Knowing the Mongolians and having read a lot about the Native Americans - it might well be possible!

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday July 14, 2016, 11:00 am
That's a "mere" 3 Mio, Eleonora! Population density is 1.76/km2. (Compared to pre-Israel 1919 population density of 21.0/km2)
And the Native Americans don't expect to "OWN" the land! So wouldn't be having to de-legitimise the Mongolians' existence & presence there ...

So probably they could work out a reasonable co-existence without trampling on the indigenous human rights!!


Evelyn B (63)
Thursday July 14, 2016, 11:01 am
By the way, Ros - glad you caught the pun!!

Michela M (3964)
Saturday July 30, 2016, 6:30 am
According to me, what has been done was a GENOCIDE!!!!!!!!

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday July 30, 2016, 7:10 am
Thank you Michela and to others on here who at least understand that, who are willing to step outside of their own lives and see from another vantage point and to draw upon empathy. I have not come back to this very thread from the time when someone from Dominant Culture said the people who were living upon this land didn't "own" it - so guess it was okay after that what happened to the millions who lived initially.

No the Indian people didn't "own" the lands, that wasn't even a concept within their minds, because every living being had a right to it's own life, one could not OWN what the Creator had given to them. It was to be used in a balanced way taking no more than was needed and being respectful of all their Relations in this world - Relations meaning all of life - including the four legged, the winged ones, the finned ones, the Plant Nation so on and so forth. One did not OWN their Relations.

Again, I will go back to what I had said earlier there is a reason why there are almost no Native Voices on C2 anymore. There were some wonderful people who came on here years ago when I was first on C2 that tried to bring forth various things but instead of some in Dominant Culture trying to learn, would crash onto the thread with the arrogance and ego rather than with respect and humility.

I will say no more - but it will be the teachings of the indigenous that will save the Heartless Greedy Ones from themselves - else we all perish.

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 12:57 am
Yes, only with the emergence of Corporate Capitalism and an ego that thirsts for domination and control, does the idea and concept of "ownership" rear its ugly head.

People who live spiritually in balance with their environment already own far more.
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