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The Time Is Now To Defeat Both Trump and Clintonian Neoliberalism


World  (tags: Trump, Clinton, authoritarianism, neoliberalism, revolutionary journalist Mumia Abu-Jamal, social movements, democracy, resistance, bitter fruit )

Sheryl
- 964 days ago - counterpunch.org
Trumpian authoritarianism and Clintonian neoliberalism are actually co-partners in a joint system of rule. Trumps authoritarianism is often a hidden bitter fruit of Clintonian neoliberalism. Social movements for democracy must fight them both together.



   

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Comments

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 1:07 pm
This is a long article but an EXCELLENT article.

I highly suggest finding the time to read it.

We need to get out of the slogans and into the deep seated thinking so we can move ourselves to a better Vision.
 

Roger G (148)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 1:09 pm
noted, thanks
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 1:33 pm
Excellent article, and another cementing of knowledge that a Clinton Presidency WOULD BE OF NO BENEFIT to the everyday ordinary working class citizens of America.

A little bit of me, given Clinton's obvious divorce and disconnection with actual people, AND that quite interesting observation by Trump himself that despite HUGE numbers turning out for Bernie Sanders, that he was not only marginalized in the Press/Media but that the voting appeared inordinately skewered, feels that a Trump Presidency would actually send the appropriate shock wave through America, after one term in office, and we might get a healthier return to democracy with a Bernie Sanders and/or Dr. Jill Stein led movement.

Hillary Clinton AND Bill Clinton are damaged goods and DO NOT represent the interests of ordinary Americans any more than dumping nuclear waste into oceans would be healthy for the fish.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 1:59 pm
Within article:

Don’t be fooled by the “liberal” or “liberalism” terms. They cover a brutal political economy with a shiny gloss of references to “progress” or “democracy.”

Neoliberalism is a system of domination so deeply entrenched, so brutal at times – both in the U.S. and abroad – that its maintenance requires enforcement by the U.S. military’s multiple major global command centers (Johnson, 121-122), orchestrating covert wars by Special Operations and enlistment of paramilitaries, as well as by direct military interventions (drones, bombing missions, sometimes troop deployments).

Inside the U.S. neoliberal economics finds it necessary to build an expanding mass incarceration system and give wide discretion to police violence for controlling black, brown and poor life deemed “unruly.”
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 2:04 pm
From within article:

“Clintonian neoliberalism” is this political system as reinforced over the last twenty-five to thirty years, mainly from the period of Bill Clinton’s first presidency.

He built upon and made stronger the conservative law- and-order agenda and “war on drugs” policies of Ronald Reagan so well traced in Michelle Alexander’s popular book, The New Jim Crow.

As told by sociologist Loïc Wacquant in his book Punishing the Poor, Bill Clinton also more than accommodated Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich’s destruction of social services under a “Contract with America” agenda that insisted that the poor “shoulder more personal responsibility.”

What the poor got from Clinton’s and the Republicans” 1996 “Welfare reform act” was more dispossession. “Poor children suffering from disabilities . . . were excluded from welfare roles;” some “315,000 of them would lose all benefits in the six years following the passage of the law” (Wacquant, 91).

The poor received also from Bill Clinton a crime bill in 1994, The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act. It was more onerous than what the Republicans alone could have devised.

President Barack Obama has done little or nothing to soften the harsh impact of the Clintonian neoliberalism that allied Democrats and Republicans in draconian policies that bonded this harsh criminal justice regime to an imperial war-making agenda. Obama has out-done George W. Bush in drone warfare and the proliferating of war abroad. He also has expanded and strengthened the U.S. surveillance state (Greenwald, 50).

Bill Clinton, with Hillary Clinton’s at least occasional support, touted corporate America’s trail-blazing trade pact NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement between the U.S., Canada and Mexico), though she herself would take different and often contradictory positions later on the NAFTA agreement. NAFTA has been disastrous in invigorating drug cartel trading and violence in Mexico and in the U.S. (Mercille, 1642, and Paley) NAFTA has also been detrimental to the well being of labor in both countries.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 2:05 pm
From within the article:

If Hillary Clinton still shows herself negligent to embrace the Palestinian cause, to fight corporations to save the planet from environmental catastrophe, or to roll-back the trade agreements like the TPP that disadvantage labor at home and abroad – well, this is Hillary Clinton today, still representing Clintonian-neoliberalism and its class wars against working peoples and the poor.
 

Sheila D (194)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 2:24 pm
The Democratic Platform is a joke and the people that believe Clinton will follow through on her promises need to have their eyes opened...an almost impossible task as we have seen on many C2 threads. If there's no change now, I fear that there will never be change...we'll be boxed in, to jails, so-called camps and to nursing homes. Our children and grandchildren are too obsessed with technology and that will be their downfall.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 2:59 pm
I think you folks have exactly the same issues with democracy and the Democratic Party, as we had with New Labour in the 1990s/2000s in Britain.

The New Labour movement, led by Tony Blair, was essentially a repackaged Labour movement, without the help or need to endorse, champion or encourage UNIONS, Fairness, Equality, and Re-Nationalization of the Privatized companys.

In the $tates, your Democratic Party, fueled and funded by Corporate Capitalism has the same issues, i.e. it's NO LONGER THE VOICE of the people.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 3:50 pm
You got that one Darren, neither of the two main Parties are the Voice of the People anymore.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 3:52 pm
The moral grounds resonated with me big time:
"Princeton religion Professor Ed Glaude registered the point poignantly as he wrote about his problem with voting for Clinton. He admitted his own fear of Trump, but recalls this from his experience in African American communities of the South: “My daddy, a gruff man who has lived all of his life on the coast of Mississippi, taught me that fear should never be the primary motivation of my actions. It clouds your thinking, and all too often sends you running to either safe ground when something more daring is required, or smack into the danger itself.”"
and
"we need to renew our commitments to the political movements on the ground and at work in contesting both the right and the “lesser evil” of today’s corporate and imperial state. As one part of these movements, we need those in the centers of entitlement to come out against Clintonian neoliberalism. “The camps” under Trump about which Sarsour warns us have already long been built. They are the U.S. prisons, jails and detention centers of our era. Bill Clinton’s unprecedentedly large build up of law enforcement and prisons, with his 1994 crime bill, provided the material and ideological conditions for later round ups and confinement of Muslims and Arabs. We should not cower behind our fear, least of all should we spread counsel to our students and the wider public that the “lesser evil” Hillary Clinton is the best this nation can do. Again, I consider Cornel West exemplary in his living a radical political critique in public while teaching at the Harvards, Yales and Princetons, and at Union Theological Seminary of New York."
 

M B (62)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:00 pm
True; don't get fooled by their slogans - it's just like wearing a different cloak - we need a real alternative :)
Remember the South Park episode, lol:
While the rest of the nation is distracted by the results of the presidential election, Barack Obama and John McCain set out to complete their true combined objective: a daring "Ocean's Eleven" style jewel heist.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:05 pm
Submitted too soon:
"Today’s fears of Trump and all the warnings come from a white elite or a black elite, or from any others who have some proximity to white wealth and power. But proclaiming a fear of Trump and running to Hillary Clinton is, at best a gross underestimation of the organizing power of the poor, at worst a paternalist and maternalist condescension toward the resistant creativity of the vulnerable."
and
"If Hillary Clinton still shows herself negligent to embrace the Palestinian cause, to fight corporations to save the planet from environmental catastrophe, or to roll-back the trade agreements like the TPP that disadvantage labor at home and abroad – well, this is Hillary Clinton today, still representing Clintonian-neoliberalism and its class wars against working peoples and the poor."
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:14 pm
I think you need to read the article to understand why both are equally dangerous.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:21 pm
Actually, I think you need to be respectful of those who disagree with you and review the evidence they provide you before you go on the attack out of ignorance. Read the article and learn something, if you have the courage.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:23 pm
Trump is the result of the problem--not the problem that requires solving and eliminating...stopping Trump does nothing to resolve the problem and only strengthen those who benefit from it remaining with how Bill Clinton put all the pieces in place in this country.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:38 pm
Nyack you are sounding like a broke record and adding nothing to the conversation from the article that was posted.

Thank you JL A who said:

"Actually, I think you need to be respectful of those who disagree with you and review the evidence they provide you before you go on the attack out of ignorance. Read the article and learn something, if you have the courage.

Trump is the result of the problem--not the problem that requires solving and eliminating...stopping Trump does nothing to resolve the problem and only strengthen those who benefit from it remaining with how Bill Clinton put all the pieces in place in this country."
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:48 pm
You sound like a ranting looney right now Nyack, you come on thread after thread and offer nothing of real substance to many postings not only of mine but of others. I'd hate to have that be my legacy on the internet as everything is publicly shown.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:56 pm
This also seems to illuminate the issue pretty well:

Fireworks: Two Black Intellectual Heavyweights Debate Hillary, Trump, Race and Neoliberalism
Michael Eric Dyson and Eddie Glaude go mano a mano.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/michael-eric-dyson-vs-eddie-glaude-race-hillary-clinton-and-legacy-obamas-presidency?akid=14491.953895.K0nlBl&rd=1&src=newsletter1061089&t=4
 

Animae C (507)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 4:59 pm
Tracking & will return.
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 5:57 pm
Noted. Thanks, Dandelion.

Yes, an excellent and powerful article. And, I'm glad it took note of Ms. Clinton's "penchant for war and empire building." THAT is something at the crux of what is so horribly wrong, and is sucking in our tax dollars while curbing benefits for those most in need......which is really where our tax money SHOULD BE GOING. But, it just goes to enrich the already wealthy through private corporations. Now, THAT was a topic that was well explained here.

And, this is not the first time I have heard/read the comment regarding the possibility of Trump winning, and what it might bring. There are many who are so angry that they are okay with Trump winning for the reasons mentioned in the article.
While those within the GOP are furious and also hate-filled against Clinton; those on the left are also furious. When we looked to "our" Dem party to come down on the side of the people, we got a finger in our faces.

Yes, the Bernie delegates planned to walk out. There were many protests. I have been following them at the Popular Resistance website and also RSN. There are many videos of various protests I was very glad to see. In fact I read that Dem officials planned to lock the doors to the convention hall and not let protesters out. Protesters that left weren't allowed back in, and some had their credentials removed.
This was an absolute mess for the Dem party. But, I saw the best coverage of it at the 2 sites above.....the news channels and most of mainstream media minimized the protests if they covered them at all.

*BTW, Bernie was a guest on Real Time with Bill Maher on Friday. He appeared via satellite, and it was great to see him. For the media to state that his supporters believe he deserted them is an absolute lie. He is a sitting U.S. Senator and must continue his work in Congress. He is beholden to his constituents in VT to continue the fight. He cannot afford to alienate his Senate colleagues.

And, it was such a PLEASURE to see Dr. Cornel West on the panel during the same Real Time. Bill allowed him to speak at great length (he often cuts off guests when they speak too long due to the time restrictions of a "Live" show). I don't know if this can be accessed at the HBO website, but hopefully many will be able to watch this excellent show.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 7:08 pm
History says you are wrong Nyack--Clinton's policies created the domestic and economic environment much like in Germany prior to Hitler (preMussolini, too say the experts along with many other countries) leading to Trump's rise by capturing the hurting Americans that know it isn't working for them who are inclined to blame folks not like them instead of some that sometimes seem like them, like the Clintons. Going to war always means more hurt at home, which is why even more war than now is unconscionable.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 7:09 pm
Thanks for the tip on Maher--I'll try to find it Lois.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 9:34 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/08/business/the-battle-of-the-decades-reaganomics-vs-clintonomics-is-a-central-issue-in-2000.html?pagewanted=2
Carter began some of it...
"Clinton will make the case here tonight that Obamanomics is just an updated version of 1990s Clintonomics. President Obama frequently suggests much the same thing. What’s funny strange, of course, is that the only part of Clintonomics that Obama seems to really like is the tax hikes. Certainly not the welfare reform or the lower government spending. You never hear much about that stuff — or how Clinton deregulated the banks.

Moreover, Obama has criticized the pro-market turn in U.S. economic policy that begun under Reagan and continued under Clinton"
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2012/09/05/explaining_the_clinton_economic_boom_289328.html

Clinton rejected Obamanomics as president
"The great Clinton economy began when he embraced the essence of Reaganomics: tax cuts, spending restraint, welfare reform, free trade and the end of his own budget-crushing entitlement program, universal health care.

Clinton, it is mostly forgotten, was on the verge of becoming a failed president in his
first two years. Even the Democratic-controlled Congress had defeated his much touted stimulus package and an enormous hike in energy taxes. HillaryCare, the forerunner to Obamacare, was dead in the water by the summer of 1994, with the Senate Democrats hoisting the white flag on this signature issue on the eve of the Congressional elections.

Clinton’s most significant achievement was a huge but unpopular tax rate increase that Obama seems determined to duplicate. So unappealing was his record, the Republicans swept both houses of Congress in November for the first time in four decades."
http://humanevents.com/2012/09/05/clinton-rejects-obamanomics-embraces-reaganomic/
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 9:47 pm
At the US Democratic National Convention, fossil fuel companies shack up with media
https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/62294
 

JL A (281)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 9:50 pm
Back to a key point and difference from now of the above article:
"According to a jointly authored piece by Clinton’s chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and his defense secretary (The Washington Post, Aug 10, 2000): “This ‘peace dividend,’ amounting to about $100 billion a year, has been a major contributor to the balanced budget that our economy now enjoys.”
 

Dawnie W (250)
Sunday July 31, 2016, 11:37 pm
❤️:-(())❤️Noted❤️
❤️ Thanking you kindly for sharing this information❤️
💕💛ღ❤️Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ💕♥L💜ve, Hugs and Peace go with you all♥💕Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ❤️ღ💛💕
 

Animae C (507)
Monday August 1, 2016, 4:11 am
Geez do i regret tracking : )
 

Past Member (0)
Monday August 1, 2016, 5:04 am
I would like to take this opportunity to thank Care2 for allowing freedom of speech and for displaying a grand amount of patience and tolerance. Those who are permitted to speak, no matter how distastefully it may seem to most, are being allowed the floor, as they are within the limits of representing what Care2 stands for. If they were not, they would have been removed many months ago. Witness, BMutiny and so many others, who stepped over a Care2 line. If I step over a line, for me, it is the line of truth and goodness----to defend that which is good.

We all must educate ourselves as to exactly what these lines are. Reread the Care2 rules and regulations for proper conduct. For instance, I notice that we've recently witnessed the Lord's name being used in vain. We have witnessed personal abusive attacks, foul language used by insertion of **##s. So, I think we need to be thankful for such liberties, as long as they are given, as the Constitution provides---with liberty and justice for all.

This same fairness of thought, that rules sites such as this one, is why Bernie is not our nominee. It is why the media is continuing to aid and abet it's controllers, the 1% who manipulate the planet. So, to be honest, our votes are not going to count in November. Democracy has been overtly removed. There is no justice, no Constitutional legal right to a fair and free election.

We need to give thanks that there are those on Care2 taking such great pity upon us unenlightened, and teaching us, by rote, the repeated message of the fact that we need to admit defeat and inure ourselves to how things operate in the real world---they operate the same way they do on public sites. We can continue to try to teach pigs to sing, but it will continue to be a waste of our time---and only irritate the pigs. That is the real world.

Many of us who are staunch peacemakers, tend to be idealists, dreamers. We bought into John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Native American wisdom and spirituality---and others who touted the dreams of peace, justice, liberties, freedoms, love, a healthy green planet, tolerance, truth, The Golden Rule. No wonder we invite such ridicule and evilness. Our beliefs, our very souls are the last threat to evil on the planet.

As not many listen when I keep repeating that I feel we are witnessing the end days of the veritable Battle Of Armageddon---that battle of good against evil---just witness our daily communication here on Care2, as it is extremely representative of the globe. When good dares to raise a nostril above the water line, evil has to stomp on it. It is their civic duty, whether it comes from their inner awareness or they be paid to do so. They and we decided long ago which side we're on.

Two options for everyone. Lay aside the intolerance of each other's differences and join whichever side you have chosen, to extract what you consider to be distasteful, unacceptable. A revolution. Hopefully, there will be aiding and abetting by strong, merciful energies on the side meant to inherit Earth. Just watch how Care2 makes their decisions when deciding which side to support--it may be an omen. In the final battle between good and evil, the meek peacemakers may be "on their own". He helps them who help themselves.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday August 1, 2016, 5:19 am
"Voting for the lesser of two evils is actually voting for the evil of two lessers". (Stephen Colbert).

Try giving peace and justice a chance by voting The Green Party--for a healthier planet and a true democracy, for all. Your vote creates the destruction or the salvation of a planet and all life on it, so be careful where you allow yourself to be led. Educate yourself and then choose. Don't allow the 1% of elitists to allow their media to lead you astray. Learn for yourself--then vote with your conscience and heart.

Thanks Dandelion. This surely deserves **********Green Star Showers.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 1, 2016, 5:22 am
Aho Janice!

"They say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one." John Lennon
 

Sue L (72)
Monday August 1, 2016, 11:22 am
What an eye-opening article. Thanks for posting Dandelion. I don't question the need for change but I do question whether there is enough time to make Jill Stein a viable choice for president. While Trump and Clinton are 2 sides of a coin rigged against the 99%, I cannot stomach the thought of Trump as president and am not convinced that a vote for Stein or Sanders would be wasted and allow Trump to win.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 1, 2016, 11:40 am
I know Sue, this isn't easy, as a voter and citizen of this Country it is like being between a rock and hard place right now. I post various articles so that people can have different perspectives and I appreciate those who do take the time to read them and to reflect and ponder.

I think Dennis Kucinich gave the best advice on matters such as these. I will leave that on the link below.
If You Don't Vote With Your Heart Your Heart Never Wins

Remember he said this about 10 years ago.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 1, 2016, 12:03 pm
It seems that SOME are prepared to vote in Clinton, if only because she's NOT Trump. Plus, there's the small matter of Clinton would represent America's first ever female president.

That's not a good enough reason, in my opinion.

In the U.K., Margaret Thatcher was voted into power in 1979, and she and her government proceeded to decimate and destroy British industry by selling it off (Privatization), and wage war on the Unions, who bodies of people who FIGHT for worker's rights.

Margaret Thatcher famously had the Belgrano targeted and sunk, in the early 1980s, which brought her a second landslide victory a few years later, whilst unemployment rose to its highest ever total or 3 Million+

You've got the same headache in the $tates, with Clinton coming from a damaged, questionable background. A lawyer who suppressed information that led to the abusers and rapists of a young woman being let off.

Clinton has also supported WAR. Anyone who supports War, wants their head examining.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 1, 2016, 12:45 pm
Yes a lot of "somes" are prepared to vote for her for those reasons and still some are still deluded that this is a better Party overall. The Party hides behind some of the social issues, gay rights, legal abortions, while the rest of Rome burns. The Republicans do the same they hide behind not have legal abortions and at the moment a bashing of Mexicans and Muslims. Gays use to be their thing but they seemed to have pretty much moved on from it, for now.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 1, 2016, 12:47 pm
Whoops forgot to finish my thought....it seems that if these core issues are covered and gun rights for the GOP and the Dem's for gun safety laws then if both Parties pound out those messages they seem to have free reign to do whatever dastardly deed that the 1% desires.
 

Jamie Clemons (282)
Monday August 1, 2016, 1:05 pm
The system is broken. We have the Republicans and Democrats playing good cop bad cop so that they can control us like sheep. We have to break out of this two party system if we have any hope of restoring democracy.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday August 1, 2016, 1:12 pm
Interesting article: "Are there risks in running hard against both Trump and Clinton? Are there things to be feared? Might Trump have his day – be a “price we have to pay?” Indeed yes perhaps. But, in Mumia’s words again, “So be it.”

This article is a good place to post a very long comment about the latest race in our two-party illusion.

The Mundane's Last 100:

Last year when Slump started his official run (he actually began in 2013 with the birth certificate crap), I thought he had more substance. He had political ambitions as far back as the 80's and so I thought he had a plan for who and what he wanted to do when he entered the race. But I don't see any plan. His whole run so far has been based on: just trust me because I've dealt with politicians my whole life, I know how the system works and how corrupted it is and I can do better for the American people.

Early on his message was working well, he was exposing the corruption in politics and the media in tweets and live on TV, but than he suddenly stopped and began repeating a stump speech over and over while keeping the media occupied with endless outrageous tweets intended to get everyone distracted and to underestimate him, it all crescendoed during the Clinton/FBI/Bill-Ag visit, when he gave the same stump speech and talked about mosquitoes.

Also, early on, I thought he was going to package his camp-pain to emphasize the future and cast the dems as the party of the past, but he didn't. The people he began to choose for his cabinet were people like Newt, Pence, and Larry Kudlow etc....the epitome of the past.

Moreover, I thought his convention was going to be more organized with a hollywood contrast of the dems (past) and his republicans as the future, but instead the RNC convention turned out to be a mish-mash dud-fest.

Slump still keeps repeating the same Schick almost everyday. Why? Some part of me feels like he already knows the system won't let him win so he's going to run an Anti-Campaign to disrupt as much as possible before its all over. If there was ever a time he thought he had a real chance, it must have died with the outcome of Comley's FBI Emails and Bill's-AG plane visit. We've all experienced such moments when we know there is nothing we can do within a certain life situation to change the outcome and so we "surrender" to it internally, relax, release, and let go....when that "Zen" type moment appears, things sometimes mysteriously alter and we actually get the change what we had originally thought we couldn't have gotten before the "surrender". It's called "Flow". He's going to ride this race all the way to the end. And if Slump does lose big, he has two very simple excuses: 1) See, I was right. I told you the election system is completely rigged 2) I lost because I was undermined by the RNC elites and the media.

All along, Slump has been tapping into the KNOWER in each us who knows all outer political appearances is BS: 35 years of unsecured borders is BS, the current wars, political correctness, stagnate wages, how a 1% became the 1%, the fight against LGBT community, and the media are all BS, that it is all EGOIC Game appearances. Slump says, you know it and I know it, I can expose it, and remove much of it so America can right its ship, all you the voters have to do is Trust Me - yet he offers nothing in the way of HOW he would create a new more balanced Game on earth. It is a big gamble/proposition for Americans to consider from a Casino owner who went bankrupt multiple times. It will be interesting if/how he can dodge being more specific when he finally has to debate Hillary who seems to be looking forward to the event when she looked squarely into the camera and said the word "debate" when giving her acceptance speech. Slump has since tried to bring in his family to mitigate some of that huge gamble by having them explain the way he "really" is behind the scenes...but the gamble remains. And with his family so heavily involved now, are we witnessing the making of yet another political family-dynasty??....haven't we had enough of them already?!

---------

Intell:

Slump has gotten the establishments of both parties as well as our alphabet Intell agencies hating him, the CIA director declaring that he wouldn't reinstate torture no matter what Slump said, the FBI Clinton email exoneration, the recent Russian comments, the Khan family controversy etc...etc....just what is Slump up to? It's hard to know.

As crazy as it seems, consider this: If Slump is sincere about weeding out corruption and saving America BUT realizes the system is thoroughly rigged (that Intell has both campaigns and personal phones under surveillance), than his only way to "outfox" Intell is to constantly keep them confused....in other words, he has to be nonsensical and spontaneous. Spontaneity is every Intells worst nightmare. It has been admitted publicly here and abroad in what is called "lone wolf" attacks. Another example is Flash Mobs. Flash Mobs were acts of civil spontaneity (good mob = dancing/singing + bad mob = disrupting commerce/traffic) that had police and Intell having fits which is why they poured everything they had into shutting them down. When's the last time you heard of a Flash Mob happening?

Knowing this, Slump may have Intell thinking he's going to say/do something in one direction, BUT when he executes the plan live on stage, he does something completely different/opposite - thus, staying one step ahead of Intell. Now, if that is what is happening, we would all have to afford Slump a very high level of sophistication not to mention a huge set of BALLS - - well, I am not anywhere close to believing he has either. How could such a public figure keep outfoxing Intell day after day to begin with than hope to survive an "October Surprise"? And our last Gemini populist president with an attractive wife and family who didn't get along well with Intell didn't fare so well. If I were Slump, I wouldn't schedule any speeches in Dallas.

--------

Where's the race headed for Slump:

Last Feb, I commented this election will boil down to the Supreme Court picks and Slump confirmed this 2 weeks ago at a news conference after the RNC convention. In a rare occasion, he showed his political hand by admitting this election will come down solely to the Supreme Court. Slump stood up at that press conference, looked straight ahead, directly into the camera, and said unabashedly to REPUBLICANS: "I'm it!" "You've got no where else to go, now!" "You have no choice, but me." "It's me or you lose the Supreme Court for the next 20 years". He sneered as he said it, too...like a man who had just manipulated an entire political party into such and awkward position. It was amazing and disgusting to watch at the same time.

I believe he was sincere because the ONLY smart political move Fork-Tongue has made during this entire race, imo, was to release his list of SCOTUS picks right after Scalia's death. I think he knew the court was going to be THE key deciding factor even before Scalia's death, but when Scalia died, almost immediately, Slump released his list and talked it up in the media.

The "occult side" of Slump knows that people have an inherent BS Limit, I call it "Bullshit Fatigue".....and when a human being reaches that threshold she/he turns off and falls into apathy. This is one reason why he throws so much BS into the public arena every single day. Politically, it's an important moment when voters reduce all of the Election Bullshit (overflowing in their minds) into a SIMPLE CHOICE. Come this Sept and October both parties will seize that moment via their surrogates, TV, Radio, and Web Ads, to purposefully reduce to cacophony of shit from this past year down into the SCOTUS picks only. Before Nov 8, every scare/guilt tactic imaginable will be used to influence voters onto yet another "lesser of two evils" choice, one side or the other, (saving the corrupted two party system yet again). Other issues will still get played, but the main focus will be SCOTUS.

With that said, it's clear now how significant Justice Ginsberg's remarks about Slump might become down the stretch. Whether her statements were true or not, it was inappropriate to have stated them publicly. If she didn't have enough sense to know how important SCOTUS was going to be this election cycle (even before Scalia's death), than maybe IT IS time for her to go. It was politics 101, and she blew it.

In October, Slump and surrogates will most likely run Ginsberg's statements 24/7 to scare the living hell out republicans and those right leaning undecided voters. The dems will run their own scare-fest. And both will use the, "No matter what you think of me, do you want the other party to decide the fate of our country for an entire generation" argument.

As far as the debates go, it is too soon to call just how Slump will go into the debates. Will he attack his way through them, or get more specific about what his plans are and how he will implement them. Or will he even attend the debates??

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October Surprise:

What of our proverbial October Surprise? What will it be this time?!? Both candidates/parties are vulnerable to the infamous 'October Surprise'. The players will be the DNC, RNC, FBI, NSA, and WikiLeaks.....something is going to be leaked/released at the most politically damaging time to deliberately influence the outcome of our election. Just what?.....we'll have to wait and see. No solid clues yet, some lightweight guesses are: In Clinton's case, something like direct "Foreign Donor" illegality to her camp-pain and/or foundation/State Dept mishap/more emails from Wiki

In Slump's case, something like a tax/business fraud bombshell (domestic/foreign) or a social bombshell to rock the evangelicals.

Whatever it is, it has to be enormous because Americans have already taken very strong positions for each candidate. Expect pictures, vids, and audio recordings.

--------

Where's the race headed for Hillary:

Admittedly, Hillary's section is shorter because we already know who and what she is after 30 years.....others in this forum and Hillary's campaign would like us all to believe that somehow the truth about the real, gentle, nurturing Hillary was never allowed to shine forth these past 3 decades because the American public (hopelessly stupid) was somehow deceived by a merciless 'right wing" hit machine.
....it's an insult to us all, but that is what they are selling - the real truth somehow could not seep through so they have to re-brand her.

People forget that back in 08' election that had an everyday house fern run for the nomination against Hillary, the fern would have won just because it wasn't a Clinton. Our country was in tatters than, we had had enough of Clinton and Bushes and we wanted a "new" direction --- which naturally led us right back to the "old" direction thanks to Obama and our two party illusion. Hillary may likely win in Nov, but no amount of re-branding will help her, she will enter the office with a very heavy load of baggage.

The DNC convention presentation was very good - almost too good, right down to the "Switchwords": STRONGER TOGETHER = TO-GET-HER. James Mangan must have been turning over in his grave. A Switchword is a subconscious-trigger activated to achieve a desired manifested result. I've often used the Switchword: REACH to find lost/misplaced objects. The Master-Key Switchword to do anything with mastery just happens to be: TOGETHER. It links the conscious mind with the subconscious. Hillary's camp-pain and surrogates have been using Switchwords for months leading right into the convention.

Aside from the hacked email scandal that amazingly the DNC politically handled well, the execution of the convention program was near flawless. Very strange for the DNC, indeed. How did it do it??...when it bungles nearly everything else including not understanding how to secure its own computer/servers in the 21st century?....and not legally informing those American citizens a.s.ap. who may have had their personal info stolen. Strange, indeed.

Day 4 of the convention was the scariest to me, though. Except for Mr Khans emotionally sincere speech, the entire 4th day was 1) a historic yet standard acceptance speech 2) a national pep-rally for upcoming war. From Biden's speech to General Allen's yelling rant, if you throw in the flags, balloons, chants, and signs, it was a government displaying where its headed and trying to rally its nation for the conflicts/wars just around the corner - with IS, Russia, China?? Why would the dems want to go there with its party: 1) the republicans were supposed to be ready by 2016 to take the "mantle" back and go there, but they can't even govern their own House 2) the first woman president has to be perceived by the public to be as able as the boys to go to war, protect the American people at home, and secure corporate profits.

What has Hillary got going for her this cycle? Slump for one. As a candidate, Hillary has so many holes she resembles a kitchen grater with eyes - so someone as bombastic as Slump to give contrast to her wise, gentle, nurturing re-branding is just what the doctor ordered to finally push her over the "reputation hump" and win a general election. If someone like centrist John Kasich had won the nomination instead of Slump, Hillary would have had a harder time of it, imo. Next, being an insider, she has a global political/financial network at her fingertips. She knows the ropes well....whether she can execute her plans is still up for debate. Also, her gender helps because of historical precedent as well as more women are registered to vote than men. And timing helps her, too. From a corporate/two party point of view, the republicans (because of their right-wing problem) are simply not ready to govern properly at this point in time for the corporate leaders who run the show. Repubs were supposed to be ready by now, but their right wing has been unmanageable. With the Clintons back in the White House, corporate/1% interests may have to take a small hit the next 4 years, but the RNC can finally get back to rebuilding its party one "scandal" at a time while reining in its right-wing once and for all -- or so they think. The differences are wide between the RNC elites and its right, I think irreconcilable which is why I've kept suggesting that if Slump were to lose in Nov, he might "Kobayashi Maru" a second prize in his mind: A New Party - everything he would need to so would be in place, however the longer he waited post election, the harder it would become.

----------

Quick Arcane View: *Info taken from various websites easy to find.

The Emperor vs the Empress

"Their" latest two-party candidates and campaigns are known liars. Slump the serial lair and Hillary the manipulative lair, therefore, both cards are in the reversed position.

The Emperor:

The Emperor is a card about control, about authority, command, organization and foundations. He follows all those other cards where the querent decides what he wants, and nurtures it into fruition--now what the querent has must be managed, guided.

Emperor Opposite/Reversed:

If the Emperor is the Father, the adult parent, than the opposite is the baby, childishness: the leader is tyrannical, the worst sort of Nero-like dictator; he uses his aggression, temper and his charm for his own selfish wants rather than to help his kingdom. This is a card about inconsistency and unpredictability. There is no control, only impulsive demands.

The essence of the Emperor is his throne. He is solidly seated on that chair, in command. Turn him upside-down and several things happen. First, the crown falls off his head, the scepter and sphere from his hands. He himself falls out of the chair, and the chair also falls. This is a trio of damages. The ruler loses all emblems of command, and the kingdom loses not only the commander but the seat of power. All that is left are the bare rocks. It predicts not merely a loss of authority and control on the part of the Emperor, but a loss of both ruler and the very foundation for the kingdom. In this instance, the manager running a certain branch of a company is let go or leaves, and his job vanishes with him. No one takes his place, his employees are left at loose ends, and the whole branch collapses. There is no more chance for organization, no chance for further growth or development. No one is in charge and no one can be in charge. The throne and all trappings of rulership (crown, scepter, etc.) are gone.

The Empress:

The Empress is about planting the seed, nurturing it, growing it. It's about patience and "Motherhood" in all its facets - both the caring motherly kind, and the more distant, elegant kind. Note that there is always a danger of the Empress over-watering the plants or having trouble (as moms do) in letting their children go when the time comes.

The Empress Opposite/Reversed:

If the Empress is all about nurturing, in her opposite we get neglect instead of attention. The woman who doesn't water her plants - or doesn't pay attention to her children. No affection, no protection, no care to make sure the child grows right.This can go for anything, not just children such as neglecting a business or project that ought to be dear to one's heart, ought to be one's baby but you just don't have the patience for it.

When the card is reversed, the Empress is unseated, all her trees scatter and her grain uprooted. Her crown of stars falls off her head, and the stream (the one that starts in the High Priestess card), drains away. Her feet are no longer planted on the Earth. We can go farther than just not being able to grow - we tear out what is already growing and living and kill it. Viewing this card in its reversed position gives us perhaps the most terrible interpretation of it, the wanton destruction of all that is growing and thriving and beautiful. This is the card that might come up when discussing the cutting down of rainforests or desecration of natural landscapes or anything beautiful, the destruction of works or art, of someone's business or home or family. Growth isn't merely neglected or stopped; it is actively, vindictively prevented.

-----

Quick Astro View:

Slump and Pence are both Gemini (air) while Clinton is a Scorpio and Kaine is a Pieces both (water). This means that both main candidates will work well with their VP choices.

It is Water vs Air for the 2016 election. It's not surprising Scorpio (water) is tied with Aquarius (air) for first place in comparing the zodiac signs of our 44 Presidents when one realizes that we have been transitioning from the Age of Pisces (water) into the Age of Aquarius (air).

Clinton has a slight advantage being a Scorpio to all the other candidates in this race because it is a middle tier sign of power. Kaine is a lower tier water sign. Slump and Pence are both lower tier air signs.

Unfortunately, both Clinton and Slump may have their lunch eaten by Putin who is a high tier Libra (air). It is true Putin will resonate well with Slump. They could be friends, but make no mistake, Putin would out negotiate Slump in every way - astrologically speaking.

Putin and Clinton will have an unconscious fascination and a simultaneous dislike of one another. Both signs do not like to argue so agreements are possible, but Scorpios tends to be controlling and pushy and Libras seriously don't like to feel pressured. Both signs are prone to narcissism. Putin will have the advantage being a high tier air sign.

-----

Anagrams:

Donald John Trump = Damn Plod John Rut / And Old Thorn Jump/Darn, Dump John Lot / Dump Old John Rant

Donald John Drumpf = Mr John Flop And Dud / Dump John Darn Fold / Mr Odd John Dun(n) Flap

Hillary Rodham = My Horrid Allah / Ah, Army Drill Ho
Hillary Clinton = Tyrannic Hill Lo(w)
Hillary Rodham Clinton = A Rancid Holy Thorn Mill / A Thorny China Droll Mil(l) / A Criminal Holy Lord Nth

-------

Number 9:

The next president will be the 45: 4 + 5 = 9

The number 9 is considered to be feminine and introvert and represents wisdom and responsibility. She walks like a queen, tall and statuesque, yet feels closely connected with the rest of mankind. At the same time, she is hard to reach, may seem cold and aloof. You either love her or loathe her, but you can't deny her the respect she demands.

Positive 9:

Ability to see clearly, integration, physical, intellectual, spiritual. Personal integrity, unity, truth, perfection, concord, leading by positive example, philanthropy. The peacemaker, mediator, negotiator. 9's work will with people and feel very much at home when they are able to be of help to others and/or give time to humanitarian causes. 9s have an enormous good-will and don't like confrontation, and have a great depth of human understanding and sensitivity which enables 9s to inspire friendships, affection and love in those they meet. A humanitarian, 9s are willing to make sacrifices for those less fortunate.

Negative:

Disconnected, dreamy, lethargic, inability to concentrate, neglectful. 9's can have a tendency to feel lazy and misunderstood by others. 9's could find great difficulty in compromise and lose sight of their own best intentions placing their own needs in place of someone else's values or needs.

Goal:

9 represents human's 'earthly lesson', which is 'forgiveness' through which 9 learns selflessness and compassion. There is a great strength of character within the number 9 energy, as well as wisdom, intuition and high idealism. There is also a great deal of warmth of feeling and love of home, family and friends. 9 energy is quick to become tense and stressed, as they attempt to solve everyone else's problems for them. By respecting the Universal Law of Love and Service and practicing humility, 9 energy can turn passion into compassion.

--------

Ending Thought:

The UK, UN, Germany and the US may very well be led by women next year. Coincidence? The Feminine Archetype may be what is needed at this point in "time". As we know, there are positive and negative aspects to any Archetype. So, let us hope the positive emerges first so we have some strength to deal with its opposite. The world today is perilously unbalanced because of the psychopaths in positions of power. Their "leadership" is the cause for humanity's inner state of chronic disorder. Either we execute an about-face within our politics or fall deeper into retrogression (nationally + globally). We must Awaken to who and what we are beyond physical and psychological appearances, we have to use our consciousness properly for the benefit of All not just the few.



 

Pamylle G (458)
Monday August 1, 2016, 1:15 pm
The two-party system will continue until another viable party comes into play; that's emphatically NOT the case as of today. I'm much more in tune w/Jill Stein than Clinton, but the Green Party is not on all ballots, not consistently present on all levels of government. It's not in ANY position to prevail.
People of my age & my poverty-line income should ask themselves - seriously - what will happen if Donald Drumpf is elected ? I'm with Bernie & I'm throwing in w/Hilary. The "lesser of two evils" is NOT abstract to those of us barely making ends meet. I shudder to think about what will happen to Social Security (& other programs those around me truly need) should we collectively fail to vote for a competent and compassionate human being, which I believe Clinton to ultimately agree.
I'm not a fan of neo-liberalism; I'm a Socialist. Progressives are nowhere close to being a unified force POLITICALLY, and I honestly don't know how it will help to vote for someone who can't win.
Last point: which do YOU want to have "the codes": a megalomaniac or a seasoned neo-liberal politician with a lifelong history of service ?
 

Pamylle G (458)
Monday August 1, 2016, 1:17 pm
OOPS. Should read: "which I believe Clinton to ultimately BE".
 

Donna G (42)
Monday August 1, 2016, 2:34 pm
I voted for Dennis Kucinich in both the primaries in which he ran. Of all the candidates, I liked what he said the best.

I do not like the fact that we are faced with either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, representing the two-party duopoly. Either one of them could win in November and the big winners would not be We the People. The big winners would be the Corporations.

I do not vote for Republican Presidents. I have never done it, so I won't be voting for Donald Trump. I did vote for Bill Clinton when he ran for his first term. But, once he took office and started his run, it did not take long for me to regret casting my vote for him. When he ran for re-election, I made it a point to not vote for him.

Jill Stein represents my best interest. For years, people talk about people voting against their interests by continually voting for Republicans. At this point, with the two-party duopoly candidates, voting for either one would be equivalent to voting against ones best interests.

Voters don't seem to care anymore and I just don't understand it. I see both parties of the duopoly as abusive parents. They give you just enough so that you won't leave. If you say you want out, they dole out threats, even if the do not physically cause harm. The current threat is Never Trump or on the other side, it is Never Hillary. I find this to be a sad situation.

So, when I vote, I will vote for the person who best represents my interests and the interests of all Americans. I am 65 years old and have health issues. I might not live long enough to vote in the next Presidential election. I want the greater good, not the lesser evil.
 

Janet B (0)
Monday August 1, 2016, 3:13 pm
Thanks
 

lisa O (6)
Monday August 1, 2016, 3:24 pm
Wow! Well put and worth the read.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 1, 2016, 3:36 pm
I love Dennis Kucinich and if he'd been in my district I'd of voted for him as well. A good man.

Pamylle, I know you don't comment often so to come on here and do so, I know this strikes to the core for you. I feel what you write, as I'm in the same age bracket as you and Donna. I know BOTH Parties have been after a cut to the Social Security, I'll never forget nor forgive President Obama throwing us under the bus for that reason. How dare the Democrats of all Parties do that to us, that was their baby.

So I don't have faith in either Party not to TRY, but each time, thankfully our voices and our advocates and agency voices have risen up from all sides, voters from the Democrat, Republican, and Independents so I feel it really doesn't matter if Hillary or Trump is in on that respect.

However I do know that BOTH Parties have gotten us to this point of living in fear, living in poverty as these are manmade conditions and I'm tired of supporting people within the two main Parties that I truly do not at all agree with and dislike with a passion. I must try to add my vote, and what time I also have left as was a point of Donna's to build a Movement so that my adult children won't be my age facing the same fate. If we don't have a major change it could be well worse for them even and it's bad now. So yes, what I feel is in my best interests is the Green Party we have it here in Florida. Each of us have a hard choice to make as no matter what, I feel the next 4 years will solve nothing for most of us.
 

Maryann S (112)
Monday August 1, 2016, 4:10 pm
Thanks for sharing Dandelion!
 

Birgit W (160)
Monday August 1, 2016, 4:21 pm
Thanks for sharing.
 

Janet R (38)
Monday August 1, 2016, 4:37 pm
Remember, we have a 2 party system here in America. So, a vote for anyone other Hillary is vote for Trump. All of you will be complaining endlessly if Trump wins or Hillary wins. I'd love to have seen Bernie get the nomination but he didn't so let's deal in reality, shall we? And, yes, I'm a broken record too.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 1, 2016, 5:42 pm
Why isn't it ever a vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote for Hillary.

Actually a vote for Dr. Jill Stein is a vote for HER - that is Jill Stein - a real quality woman with some progressive agendas that will help the people who are in dire need of it at this time. 30+ years of neoliberalism people can not keep waiting forever.
 

Julie W (33)
Monday August 1, 2016, 6:31 pm
I posted this on another thread, but seems appropriate here. We basically have a two party system too, but minor parties are starting to have more influence, especially in the senate.
'
I wish you had a system like we do in Australia. We have to number parties in order of preference. If our #1 party doesn't win. our vote goes to # 2. So there is no such thing as a 'wasted vote'. If you were able to vote Bernie or Jill Stein #1 , Clinton#2, your vote wouldn't go to Trump if they didn't win.

But of course that's not the only thing wrong with your electoral system - it needs a complete overhaul, it is so corrupt. I find it difficult to get my head around it!

 

Donna G (42)
Monday August 1, 2016, 8:09 pm
In a PA poll, Jill Stein is polling at 44%. This means that there is a possibility, that she could start going up in national polls. There is a new rallying cry from social media supporters: $29 for Stein. From a recent email, 55% of donations to Stein's campaign were $29 donations.

 

JL A (281)
Monday August 1, 2016, 8:15 pm
Kshama Sawant Tells Rania Khalek Voting For the Lesser Evil Is What Brought Us Trump

Journalist Rania Khalek spoke to Seattle City Council Member and Socialist Alternative candidate Kshama Sawant on the final day of last week's DNC about the Democratic Party's inability to change, and what progressive voters must do about it
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=16899

Marc Lamont Hill: DNC Marginalized, Silenced, and Exploited the Bernie Sanders Movement

Marc Lamont Hill says that it is more important to address the interests of the exploited and the vulnerable than it is to elect a black or female president
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=16898
 

Rose Becke (141)
Monday August 1, 2016, 10:43 pm
Vote for Jill
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 1, 2016, 11:24 pm
STARS APLENTY FOR YOU DANDELION:

"Why isn't it ever a vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote for Hillary.

Actually a vote for Dr. Jill Stein is a vote for HER - that is Jill Stein - a real quality woman with some progressive agendas that will help the people who are in dire need of it at this time. 30+ years of neoliberalism people can not keep waiting forever."
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 1, 2016, 11:25 pm
Shared the Real News footage over social media, JL A.
 

Colleen L (3)
Monday August 1, 2016, 11:42 pm
I'm not looking forward to the rest of the campaign situation. I wanted Bernie. Thanks Dandelion
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 4:45 am
It's sad to see how many of my friends on FB say they will vote for Killary because they're more afraid of Trump.
I agree with the logic of voting for Jill Stein,not sure your fellow Americans do.
 

JL A (281)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 7:03 am
A Dissenting Opinion on the Importance of the Supreme Court in This Election
Some people think the Court is the most important issue, but maybe it is not.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/dissenting-opinion-importance-supreme-court-election?akid=14493.953895.3L21Lq&rd=1&src=newsletter1061113&t=6

petition on Glass-Stegall
https://www.signherenow.org/petition/glass-steagall/just/
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 11:57 am
Thanks JL A

"The Supreme Court. Never mind anything else the argument goes, if the Democrat doesn’t win, a Republican will get to appoint bad people to the Supreme Court AND THEN THE SKY WILL FALL FOR SURE"

Yes, more two-party bait. However, Scalia's unexpected death may change the dynamic this cycle.

"Many other dangers from a possible Trump presidency are disturbing as well. But appointing Supreme Court Justices is not so high on my list. Let’s stop kidding ourselves. The white male power legal system isn’t really on our side to begin with."

Interesting article. Good argument, but the media manipulated perceptions of the electorate come Oct-Nov are another matter. Maybe, this time they will down play the court?


 

Janet B (0)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 1:03 pm
Thanks
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 1:10 pm
I really feel sorrow for the small persentage of Americans who aren't indoctrinated by all the BS you get from TV,radio and the rest of the media.In Florida there is no Global Warming,in the "Bible-belt" it's "What a friend we have in Jesus" - "Praise the lord and pass the ammo" and then you have this sad person Nyack Clancy who is carpetboming all your posts of free thinkers with a message that's probably copy and paste.Not that there is many of you,in my opininon most Americans are not able to multitask,chewing gum and walk at the same time is a huge accomplishment.
You really are a sorry bunch and if it was about a small Country like Portugal or Norway nobody would bother but here we are talking about the most powerful Nation in the world and your election of a new President will influence the rest of us for at least 4 years.
It will probably be even worse for you with Trump in power,reversing Roe v Wade,getting rid of ACA with his appointment of Ultraconservative Judges to the Supreme Court etc.etc.
Whatever you vote make sure that he will not be the next President of the USA.
We fought the good fight for Bernie,I joined his next project "Our Revolution" and I hope you vote those "teabaggers" out of the House and the Senate.
I see a future for you my American friends and the future is bright if you all stand up for what you believe in.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 1:41 pm
It's basically a ONE Party system now. Republican. The Democrats disappeared when the Third Way Corporate Dem's took over, some of them former Republicans.

Not to mention the Dem's and Republicans went in cahoots with each other to make sure no one else got on the debate stage, is the reason the League of Women Voters pulled out, they said the elections from that point on (1988) would be fraudulent, and these elections have been, a farce.
http://lwv.org/press-releases/league-refuses-help-perpetrate-fraud

Correct Randy, if you look at President Obama's pick for the Supreme Court, Merrick Garland, the most conservative selection ever presented by the Democrat Party. Even Fox News approved of the choice which is almost earthshaking that Fox News would approve of anything Obama did.
 

Donna G (42)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 2:03 pm
One could say that we already have a one party system. It's called the Corporate Party. The Democrats and Republicans are just two factions of that party. With the power that the Clintons have without even being Presidents, I don't know if may in public office want to cross them.

 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 2:27 pm
Yes, "Punch" and "Judy" operated by the same hand. . . take your pick as to who is Donald and who is Hillary.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 2:51 pm

Thanks Dandelion - noted and hopefully sent Green Stars to so many valuable and good commenters. Hope they'll arrive. Sorry can't participate due to lack of time ... and everything is said already - LOL. Great reading!!
 

Liliana Garcia (203)
Tuesday August 2, 2016, 7:25 pm
It's a good article. It fails to factor in the working class, precisely those who stand to lose the most, the lower tiers, basically poor whites (already wooed by Mr. Trump) AND all employed with low wages, fast foods, Walmart, assistants to professionals, etc They are out on the street and the assemblies MUST be around their issues. Why so many lose their jobs and end up jobless or seeing in the prison complex expansion a chance for a job? Getting at the heart of these issues might open up ears!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 4:28 am
There are some of us on C2 trying to do that Liliana. If you see articles on what you say either post them or if I can do it for you I'll post it for you. I'm one person with limited time and I do my best to get information out on this tool called C2 as well as what i do offline. This weekend I'm giving a speech to a group so doing what one person can do.

Thanks Arild it is difficult because there is also over here a lot of lack of information. Some people are still in their mind walking around with thoughts and information that has been proven not to be so by research and documents released by the Independent Investigative Journalist. These people have no idea of this as new information therefore they are still making decisions based on outdated information.

As with Science we don't go on the premise that the Earth is flat anymore, Pluto is no longer considered a planet, we don't bleed people to release the evil spirits to make them well, so on so forth, and as you say a few are not even up to speed on that ie Gov. Rick Scott that denies sea level rise and global warming, there is an even larger amount of people who have no idea of what is going on in the political arena other than knowing two names running for President.

There are few schools and maybe zero now, that even teach a civics class anymore so people are not aware of many things. I recall we use to have time, even in elementary school that was called current events and the teacher and students would discuss about some major event happening in our world or Country that day.

So, it is very sad and frustrating that we have as you say a major economic and militarized Country in the world that casts a long shadow over non US citizens that it's running on such low information. And then as you say, when you try to offer some free thinking material there is always one that is trying to take the light away.
 

Danuta W (1251)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 4:43 am
noted
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 5:14 am
Thanks for the tireless work you do to educate the masses Sheryl.
Sending you a bunch of stars ****************************************** - at least these ones you can see.
 

Mitchell D (82)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 5:40 am
Abu Jamal, would just as soon see a President Trump? Yes, the U.S.A. is the world's most successful imperialist nation, ever, but that's not going to stop because Mr. Empty becomes president!
I may be an outlier here, but, focusing on what may have happened to Bernie, which is not about to be changed, and, thus, voting for Jill Stein, or any other 3rd party, can have dire consequences for all that Bernie stands for!!!
The Buddha said that the source of all suffering is craving...craving for things to be different than they are. Right now, THIS MOMENT, Hillary is the only way to keep Trump out of the white House!
Bernie has endorsed both Hillary, and the idea that people need to keep working for the changes he still stands for...once the election is won by Hillary!
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 8:01 am
Agreed, this should be a wake up call to everyone that has blindly supported either wing of the Oligarchy. You have been fooled into thinking the 2 parties are different, when you look at the big picture they only differ slightly on the smaller fringe issues. They both support the Warfare/Welfare despite the rhetoric from either side. Which makes them enemies of Peace & Liberty.

3rd parties are our only hope, we must demand they be included in the debates.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/512/818/276/let-gary-johnson-and-jill-stein-debate/
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/716/734/497/demand-care2-start-covering-3rd-party-candidates./
https://www.ouramericainitiative.com/petition--presidential-debates.html
https://www.fairdebates.com/petition.html
https://www.change.org/p/have-third-parties-represented-in-the-2016-presidential-election-debates
https://www.johnsonweld.com/debate
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 8:15 am
"Americans Are Going to be Disappointed in Election Outcome"

"It is a sad commentary on the state of political life in the United States that our political conventions have become more like rock music festivals than competitions of ideas. There has been a great deal of bombast, of insults, of name-calling, and of chest-beating at both party conventions, but what is disturbingly absent is any mention of how we got to this crisis and how we can get out. From the current foreign policy mess to the looming economic collapse, all we hear is both party candidates saying they will fix it, no problem."

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2016/august/01/americans-are-going-to-be-disappointed-in-election-outcome/
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 11:43 am
Thank you Arild I appreciate that.....

Mitchell I know you've used that same comment before on the threads. Now I am now a person who has been studying Buddhism so I'll not get into a discussion on that, but surely, you do not think that a person who is up to their neck in manure would not have a desire to change their circumstance.

I mean they can get all zen like and remain calm, feel the texture on their body of the manure and sink into it's softness I do suppose, they can even get use to the smell after some time. I suppose they could just sit in that spot and remain there. Sure I can get into that peaceful easy feeling, but you know what, staying in it, if it denies me the ability to obtain food or medical care then I think that would cause me suffering not the desire to remove myself out of it.

I don't use the word craving because it isn't the craving for myself that I am doing as I do just for Bernie or the lack of Bernie. I had left the Democratic Party a long time ago as they left ME a long time ago. I have been really patient waiting for my brothers and sisters to finally find the strength to move outside of their manure piles and look for some better spot to stand in. Too many are suffering, I can see that, know of it, I as one person can only do my part and try to add my small voice into the Winds with the others that say, a way out is - over here.

It gives me no great pleasure to see how many still remain in their manure piles, but little I can do upon it. I peace, within, from my own Native teachings so, this sustains me while the masses figure out each one as to how they choose to handle their life and choices and votes. As with Eric, and and I may differ as to the choice of 3rd Party, but he and I are in agreement that this two Party duopoly does not work for most of us and certainly keeps fueling the War Machine that impacts our lives in every way from the economic drain on us to the environmental damages and is an attack on our very humanity.

I'm seeing tunnel vision here with many of my brothers and sisters of the C2 community and beyond, that is we must, we just have to, vote for Hillary to keep Trump out of the White House. If a Republican was on this thread they'd write we must vote Trump to keep out Hillary. Seems like no choice to me, seems like sitting in that manure pile a lot longer.

THIS MOMENT is certainly the moment when 58% of the American voters do not like either Trump or Hillary THAT ONLY 9% OF THE PEOPLE CHOSE FOR THE REST OF US to start looking to a 3rd Party or certainly do something different.

This isn't what I call a democracy when 9% ruled by the 1% cram two FLAWED Candidates down our throat and then everyone expects us to choose between them. Well if that is something you are satisfied with and can be all Zen like with what can I say, there are a few of you on this thread that think that is the way to go or may truly just think Trump and Hillary, depending on your point of view, is the most wonderful choice in their lifetime. Go for it, just like I'm going to go for it with The Green Party.

However, I hope all are at least in agreement this system is in a terrible mess and I would hope that when it comes to our elections that people would express and work towards improvement of that. At this link there is some information that should get around, it is in my top comment. It reads I would hope you and others would get that around to all of the Democrats.

The Dem's are having an implosion just as the Republicans. Maybe that will be good for you and I Eric - perhaps enough people might want a chance of a real democracy and open the debates to ALL voices. I very much agree with the comment left by the Ron Paul Institute.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 11:47 am
Sorry the link didn't come through it reads 100 Page Report on the Fatally Flawed 2016 Democratic Primaries
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 12:18 pm
**typo** sorry just noticed.

Now I am now a person who has been studying Buddhism

Should of read Now I am NOT a person who has been studying Buddhism
 

Janet B (0)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 12:21 pm
Thanks
 

Dianne D (490)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 1:16 pm
If you don't vote for Clinton, you are giving the nomination to Trump
 

Donna G (42)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 2:31 pm
Dianne D., I disagree. It has been proven time and again that a vote for one candidate does not give the vote to a different candidate. I'm not going to vote for either one of the Corporate Candidates. At this point, there is little difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. Both parties are corporate funded. So, you can look at it as a vote for Hillary being a vote for Donald; or, a vote for Donald is a vote for Hillary. They may be different; but, they would both be bad for our economy and our planet. Oh, I might as well add that with Hillary wanting to start something with Russia, she's not going to do much in the Peace area either.

The DNC has been crumbling for a long time. This could explain why the party depends so much on corporate funding. I hope you realize that a corporate funded party best represents the interests of the corporations and not the people. For example, the ACA, or Obamacare was designed to benefit the Insurance and Pharmaceutical industries. All the time, I hear about people who complain about their premiums going up, yet again.

Hillary Clinton got funding from the private prison industry during this campaign. She is not likely to cut back or eliminate private prisons.

Now, a note of cheer, the Green Party does not take corporate funding. Jill Stein does not take corporate funding. I am so ready for the Green New Deal which puts People, Planet, and Peace before Profit.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 2:43 pm
That presupposes that there are NO OTHER CANDIDATES. . . last time I checked, that wasn't the case.

I would expand your thinking, awareness and options if I were you.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 2:51 pm
Beautifully expressed, Donna. STARS.
 

Janet R (38)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 3:50 pm
Did you guys read that Trump asked 3 times during a security briefing why nuclear weapons weren't used? This is from a General. Remember a vote for anyone but Hillary is a vote for Trump. Just saying...
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 6:41 pm
No a vote for anyone other than Hillary is a vote for whomever I voted for. You don't seem to "get it" many of us think both Trump and Hillary are terrible.

Perhaps you haven't seen this news about Hillary yet. And remember her husband lost the codes to the Nukes.
Hillary’s hacked emails include info on Hillary arming jihadists

Oh gee, now what is worse, a non politician not knowing an answer or Hillary arming jihadists? I'll let you think upon it - no need to rush right in with an answer.

You see why I think they are equally awful - for every reason you can give me for Trump I can give one for HIllary. They both STINK. I will NOT vote for either of them. If you can do so and look yourself in the mirror afterwards well then I guess you will do what you will do - I can't and I won't.
 

sharon ogden (3)
Wednesday August 3, 2016, 9:05 pm
noted xxx
 

Eric Lees (6)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 6:15 am
Dianne, Janet
No a vote for either Trump or Hillary is a vote for the Oligarchy.
It is a vote for endless war.
It is a vote for continued debt.
It is a vote for continued racism.
It is a vote for the Police State.
Both sides are pushing fear of the other side.

Voting for the lesser evil is a vote against Peace & Liberty.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 6:18 am
As far as Jill Stein goes. She does stand for Peace but she unfortunately does not stand for Liberty. Growing the government Welfare system will not lead to the utopia her and Sanders dream of. And there is plenty of evidence to back this. So she still supports are large portion of the Statist view. But I would still support her over the lesser evil. She just needs an education on Liberty from an expert such as Ron Paul and a lessen on Austrian economics.

"Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom"
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9692754-liberty-defined
 

Eric Lees (6)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 6:34 am
@Janet "Did you guys read that Trump asked 3 times during a security briefing why nuclear weapons weren't used?"

Though it would not surprise me there does not seem to be any facts to back up that claim.
http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/03/joe-scarborough-donald-trump-asked-three-times-why-us-cant-use-nukes/

Also let's not forget Clinton's stance.
"Video: Hillary Clinton, A Threat to All Humanity. World War III is “On the Table”. Her Candidacy Must be Opposed"
first attempt at trying to make the link clickable:
Clinton WWIII
 

Donna G (42)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 7:04 am
Eric, I guess you must be a Libertarian, like Gary Johnson.

Jill Stein supports peace and human rights. For me, that represents liberty.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 8:37 am
Donna. Liberty is freedom, why would anyone oppose Liberty?

As I said it's Stein's domestic polices which mostly deal with economics that are not in line with Liberty.

The Welfare state is Force just as much as the Warfare state. And if you understand economics then you know that it does not lead to prosperity but to dependency. Be it "free" education, universal healthcare, or artificial minimum wage. It removes the individual's right to choose and removes the personal responsibility. Government force is just a form of slavery and can not be inline with Liberty.


All of this can easily be proven. Educate yourself. You should read Ron Paul's book as you clearly do not understand Liberty if you think Stein supports Liberty.

Real Progress is Liberty not Tyranny.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 2:38 pm
There are always going to be people Eric who are unable to provide for their needs, there must be a security net such as Norway has. Everyone places so much into the pot so to speak and if someone is injured it is there, born with disabilities, when they become aged it is there.

Everyone can receive an education, have their children in quality child care while they work, it benefits the whole Nation. Just as we do to protect a community against fires, we don't expect the fire truck to show up to the burning building and hope that person has the money then to purchase the fire protection. It helps if that building is protected and the fire put out quickly so it doesn't spread to the next home or burn the full town down.

I very much am in agreement with Donna, knowing my children are in quality child care while I work is a sense of liberty that I'm not having to worry upon. Safety nets work, not the way they've been toyed and messed with in this Country. There must be oversight to make sure the programs are being run proper so that the money is not being misused.

We certainly need to do something as other Countries do, all Parties that receive a certain percentage and I think most Countries use about 4% can have that representation within the Government. Those people do get their voices heard in debates unlike our two Party system that has rigged it so that the voices of Gary and Jill are relegated to almost non existence. Thankful with the internet there is an avenue for them to get out their ideas.


 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 3:11 pm
Within any decent, healthy, reasonable, honest and fair system of democracy, the richest and wealthiest people WOULD have sufficient conscience and compassion to SEE THEIR FELLOW STRUGGLING CITIZENS, and help them out, as charitable citizens do.

Unfortunately, the NORMAL function of society has been replaced by a greedy, arrogant, winner-takes-all, narcissistic model of self-preservation at all costs, and so the struggling and needy get royalty screwed and the rich and wealthy increase their stash of cash.

CLINTON and TRUMP represent the devolved, regressed, profit and wealth at the expense of the health of ordinary working citizens. I don't know how many times one has to repeat the same thing before those conditioned into voting for the same vampiric, pariahs, WAKE UP and GET IT, and realize their thinking has created the situation we have now.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday August 4, 2016, 4:58 pm
For those still tracking please consider signing this Petition:

Add Your Name to Oppose Expanded Airstrikes in Libya

Brainwashing works Darren - is why I have more hope for the youth growing up - not so many years of the indoctrination. We can only keep trying on the others, maybe the "light" will pop on at some point.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Friday August 5, 2016, 3:18 am
Eric Lees wrote:
"The Welfare state is Force just as much as the Warfare state. And if you understand economics then you know that it does not lead to prosperity but to dependency. Be it "free" education, universal healthcare, or artificial minimum wage. It removes the individual's right to choose and removes the personal responsibility. Government force is just a form of slavery and can not be inline with Liberty. "

When I read this I feel that I have to put him straight about the Norwegian Welfare System:

After I Lived in Norway, America Felt Backward. Here’s Why.

A crash course in social democracy.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Friday August 5, 2016, 3:22 am
Signed your petition Sheryl.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday August 5, 2016, 3:49 am
Thanks Arild.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Friday August 5, 2016, 4:59 am
You're welcome Sheryl. When I see these "Besserwissers" comment on things they have absolutely no clue about I feel it's my duty to tell them the truth.I simply wasn't able to make heads or tails of his comment but he's clearly in the bunch that denies Americans to break free from the unfair sharing of your Nations wealth and the freedom to seek a better and fairer system.
 

Sandra Penna (135)
Friday August 5, 2016, 6:30 am
Thanks for sharing, Dandelion. Petition signed.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday August 5, 2016, 1:24 pm
D wrote: "Safety nets work, not the way they've been toyed and messed with in this Country. There must be oversight to make sure the programs are being run proper so that the money is not being misused."

Yes, I agree. The programs work and need to be run properly which they are purposefully not. It isn't rocket science to other 1st tier countries to run their programs efficiently , but it is here for some reason. Why? We all know why. And why isn't the welfare (in its many forms) that goes to the rich and big corporations being run properly, either. We all know why.

D: "We certainly need to do something as other Countries do, all Parties that receive a certain percentage and I think most Countries use about 4% can have that representation within the Government. Those people do get their voices heard in debates unlike our two Party system that has rigged it so that the voices of Gary and Jill are relegated to almost non existence. Thankful with the internet there is an avenue for them to get out their ideas."

Yes, this is what "They' are most afraid of: Other parties having representation other than "Their" own thoroughly gamed two-parties.

Imagine for a moment that in the year 2001 there were 10-15 Independents, Libertarians, and Greens
from each party sitting in congress when 911 occurred. Those 45 members most likely would have joined
together with the two major parties and voted for the Afghanistan War, but, imo, would not have voted for
the BS from the Cheney-Bush Adm to invade Iraq in 2003 nor the Adm. version of the Patriot Act. The 3rd
parties would have joined together to stop the invasion of Iraq by slowing the process/the march to war
long enough to have sniffed out the LIE that was being perpetrated by the Adm. And in case of the Pat
Act, they would have reformed the Act properly to give our Intells the tools they needed AND safeguarded
ANY unnecessary encroachment on our Liberties. It really is that simply.

We The People have been steamrolled by our two parties. Just look at who we have to choose from this cycle. We've come to point where we NEED third parties seated in our congress to be The Peoples "Checks and Balances" on the corrupted, sold out two parties themselves.

It's time to add a new set of "Checks and Balances" into our system of government: 3rd party proportional seating. An all out parliamentary system is not needed if something like: Affirmative Election Action Laws can be passed. **Affirmative Action is the policy of favoring members of a disadvantaged group who currently suffer or historically have suffered from discrimination within a culture.**....in this case, our 3rd Parties have suffered purposeful discrimination and suppression rules from the two party FEC for decades.

Listen, I'm no political scientist, but maybe some sort of quota can be worked out. 75 seats instead of 100 in the Senate are reserved for major parties, leaving 25 to other parties. 385 House seats etc...etc...

There needs to be more dialogue, debate, compromise, and coalition building and accountability in our congress, because right now there is just too much power in the hands of only two parties and their corporate sponsors. Presently, our two party congress works 10 hours a week for We The People and another 30 hours week in a RNC/DNC call center BEGGING for corporate money. It is appalling. I can not believe this is the kind of government the Founders envisioned for us all.

Pay careful attention to what happens the first 100 days after the swearing in ceremony. If Citizens United is not restricted in someway until it can be repealed; Federally Funded Election made mandatory at all levels of gov; and Campaign-Election rules re-written; than we are in for more snail-pace legislation, wars, corruption, and dissension that may finally sink us.

George Gurdjieff named a cosmic law: The Law of Three. To him, it was "the second fundamental cosmic law". This law states that every whole phenomenon is composed of three separate sources, which are Active, Passive and Reconciling or Neutral. This law applies to everything in the universe and humanity, as well as all the structures and processes. The Three Centers in a human, which Gurdjieff said were the Intellectual Centre, the Emotional Centre and the Moving Centre, are an expression of the law of three. Gurdjieff taught his students to think of the law of three forces as essential to transforming the energy of the human being. The process of transformation requires the three actions of affirmation, denial and reconciliation". - Wiki

'This law applies to everything in the universe and humanity'......It seems to apply everywhere in the universe except in the US Congress. At present, we have an Active and Passive party......but where is our Reconciling or Neutral party?!! They have been purposefully shut out leaving our Legislative Body incomplete or un-whole. Enough!

The People need their government back.....not a two party farce of a congress that works for only 10 hours a week!


 

Lenore K (0)
Friday August 5, 2016, 5:35 pm
ty
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday August 5, 2016, 11:08 pm
Reshared your original posted article over social media, Dandelion.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday August 6, 2016, 5:08 am
Randy: " We've come to point where we NEED third parties seated in our congress to be The Peoples "Checks and Balances" on the corrupted, sold out two parties themselves."

Exactly, right now all our Institutions that were placed in for the checks and balances are now controlled by the Corporate.

Randy said "The People need their government back.....not a two party farce of a congress that works for only 10 hours a week!"

Is it even that much? Between their long holiday breaks, and the Corporate via ALEC, I don't think they even put in that much, even when they are working they are still working for the Banksters and Corporate. But I know what you mean, and this is a major reason we have to get the money out of our elections.

Look at the massive amount of money spent to elect a President that really has already been handpicked to begin with for the most part. All this has come down to is the illusion that "we the people" have a voice or say in the matter. It is a dog and pony show, something to amuse the masses so they "think" they have the democracy they were told they have.

For those who have not seen these charts this is worth a minute of your time.
Only 9% of Americans Chose Trump or Clinton for Nominees

That one fact alone is rather shameful. Then all into the mix the election fraud going on and all the money pouring in from the 1%.

I'm also for term limits in Congress as well as the President. Too many stay in those seats for too long and it is a career for them that they protect their job first rather than standing up for the people that might not be always popular for their Party but necessary for the overall good of the people. With term limits they would know that position isn't going to be for life. Who today can even say anymore they'll have a position for life, with the way things are shaking out. But they get too cozy with the Elites when they are sitting in Congress, so they need to go after a period of time.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday August 6, 2016, 5:10 am
Oh, and when they go, there needs to be no revolving door to the Corporations, there must be some time limit, say 5 years. Many of them are lawyers let them open up their own law firm or something but this I'll wash your back if you wash mine also needs to be managed.
 

JL A (281)
Saturday August 6, 2016, 7:01 pm
Obama required all his appointees to sign a contract not to lobby after their appointment to his administration--and I haven't heard of any that left to do so. I do want that--"I'm only consulting to the lobbyists not lobbying myself" element to end, too.
 

JL A (281)
Saturday August 6, 2016, 7:07 pm
Following the Money Behind Tim Kaine
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/37123-following-the-money-behind-tim-kaine

This Tax Law Professor Is Taking on the Super-Rich
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/37096-this-tax-law-professor-is-taking-on-the-super-rich
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday August 6, 2016, 11:21 pm
Shared both of those articles over social media to spread awareness, JL A.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Sunday August 7, 2016, 3:01 pm
@JL A I would not put all your trust in Truth Out, I followed them for a while but found that many of their articles are lacking facts to back them up and push an agenda.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Sunday August 7, 2016, 3:08 pm
My point is not that Welfare is never needed. But that it should be handled through voluntary means such as private Charity and not through government force.

It should be clear that our current system is deeply flawed as the people on welfare is growing as is inequality. More people are living paycheck to paycheck even with both parents working. For the first time people are worse off than their parents generation. These facts point to a flawed system that needs a reboot. Our tax code is one major flaw designed before globalization and it a serious roadblock to prosperity. The more freedom there is the less inequality there is and the less need for welfare which should be the goal.

The same end goals are accomplished while keeping with Liberty and as a side benefit much more efficiently with much less corruption and waste. It's much harder to scam your neighborhood charity freely giving their time and money than it is some bureaucracy "giving" away tax payers money.

Tyranny vs. Liberty. This is the key difference.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday August 7, 2016, 5:19 pm
Churches and charities were unable to meet the demand beyond the government benefits in the last recession and fewer people do or can afford to support them so making that move is like saying let them die.
At least a third are children receiving benefits. A third stay on welfare 7 months or less. Many who receive SNAP and other benefits are working full time at wages below a livable wage. Freedom from regulation is one source of the income inequality and increase in poverty.

Scams on the system are by the businesses who redeem the benefits mostly (stores, etc.).

The more government services are privatized, the more the corruption.

Too many mean their liberty at the expense of everyone else's right to the pursuit of happiness, et al.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Monday August 8, 2016, 2:30 am
Eric Lees,I guess you didn't read my hotlink:
"After I Lived in Norway, America Felt Backward. Here’s Why.
A crash course in social democracy."

If you believe charity can lift USA to those standards you are sadly mistaken.

I'm a Norwegian and therefor benefitting from Norways Welfare System,there is no scams and my freedom is not taken away from me.I would say that our system gives us more Freedom and Liberty because we don't need to rely on Charity or "Foodstamps" to survive.

You will surely benefit to scroll up and reed the hotlink I provided, but maybe you're so set in your thinking that you wouldn't get it anyway.You are disguising your selfishness by using words like freedom and liberty.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 8, 2016, 4:22 am
In a perfect world Eric the system from which you speak might work but we live far from a perfect world. I've always felt that in some respects the Libertarian view holds some good ideas and go along with that, however one can not have total hands off from these Corporations because they will take all the Corporate Welfare they can get and have been doing so.

There was a time in the USA when charities were the fall back for those who couldn't for themselves for whatever reason and there were dire consequences for those people, hence why we started to bring in a more humane system moving towards something like Norway. The only problem is that each time we try moving in a more humane way too many by into the 1% rhetoric disguise it as "better for the people" to not go in that direction.

Ever since the New Deal programs that were placed in that lifted millions out of poverty, placed some of the regulations on so that the Corporate wouldn't rule our lives and destroy economies the 1% have been chipping away at it from every direction possible. You must have a govt. to administer programs you can not depend on the hit or miss of charities that may or may not be available depending on where one is living.

There is this Goldilocks place with just enough govt and not too much govt and if we had FAIR and not rigged elections in place "We The People" would be running our own destiny, but what we have right now we are not running our destiny - we are being controlled by a few at the top who use our govt as puppets.

One place we absolutely agree on is that ALL Parties should be able to place their views out there, and it is a Fair system not rigged that would allow the LIbertarians as well as the Green Party and others to have a say and let the People form their own ways of doing things. Having each Party be represented fairly in the House and Senate would be nice, debate could occur, people could hear all aspects, and perhaps it would be a bit of the Libertarian views combined with some Green Party views a bit of Republican along with the Democrats. All messages getting out there -----

But we don't have that at the moment we have a total disaster over here in the USA and it's going to be a long haul to fix this mess that I hope people will be able to fix this mess soon because if we don't we'll not last much longer - not in the way that was intended anyway. Throw in climate disruption and weapons of war we'll all be fortunate in the USA and elsewhere in this world to survive let alone thrive.

Yes please do at least read what Arild presented. He has lived his system and they have a much better quality of life than it is we do in the USA for most all of their people, not so here in the USA where it is dog eat dog, sink or swim, and having the rug pulled out from under one constantly. As a woman as a Mother I assure you this is not a system that most women and Mother's enjoy at all; we ALWAYS take the brunt of it.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Monday August 8, 2016, 8:05 am
@Arild Warud

I've not responded to the Norway economic system yet because I've not gotten around to reading the article. I do remember reading an article on the topic though that basically showed that Norway is starting to see the downfall of all that welfare. Is Norway doing well because of the large welfare or despite it?

"If you believe charity can lift USA to those standards you are sadly mistaken. " Not with the current level of government intervention. As I've said the problems would be much smaller if the root causes were addressed. Once that is done yes the private sector charities can more than take care of the needy.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 8, 2016, 8:05 am
I think the alpha-male brain wired attitude to point scoring and claiming a victory needs to mature a little, otherwise, I see little genuine progress being made.

But, clearly, when Arild speaks from experience, people like Eric should damn well listen, and learn.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Monday August 8, 2016, 8:10 am
@LJ A "Churches and charities were unable to meet the demand beyond the government benefits in the last recession and fewer people do or can afford to support them so making that move is like saying let them die.
At least a third are children receiving benefits. A third stay on welfare 7 months or less. Many who receive SNAP and other benefits are working full time at wages below a livable wage. "

Wow there are a lot of holes in your logic. Your ignoring the role of regulation and the government in the housing collapse.

"Freedom from regulation is one source of the income inequality and increase in poverty."

Do you have any proof of this or is this pure speculation?

"Scams on the system are by the businesses who redeem the benefits mostly (stores, etc.)."

Do you have any proof of this or is this pure speculation?

"The more government services are privatized, the more the corruption."

Do you have any proof of this or is this pure speculation?

Too many mean their liberty at the expense of everyone else's right to the pursuit of happiness, et al. "

It is not a liberty if it takes away rights from someone else. Example: Green party platform that healthcare is a human right. It can not be a human right as that would require FORCE someone else to provide for your health. Liberty is the absence of force.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 8, 2016, 9:59 am
Eric, your logical reasoning above seems quite strange.

Do you have ANY PROOF that Privatization has actually benefited the general public. I can't think of ONE SINGLE industry where Privatization has benefited everyone. A small number of people make a fortune, the services go down, and the general public lose out. BANKING is a good example.

Where do you get the idea that a human right means that someone is FORCED to provide the service?

If Liberty is the absence of force, the United States has a monopoly on LACK of liberty for the majority of people.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Monday August 8, 2016, 11:08 am
Eric,you say that you understand economics and yet you haven't even read the info that I shared on a hotlink.You will also benefit from Dandelions explanation of some of the problems you face in the USA.
You write:
"I've not responded to the Norway economic system yet because I've not gotten around to reading the article. I do remember reading an article on the topic though that basically showed that Norway is starting to see the downfall of all that welfare. Is Norway doing well because of the large welfare or despite it? "

If you can show me the article about the downfall of the Wellfare System in Norway I would very much like to read it because it's because it's BS,be aware that there is more people around that understands economics.Norway's Wellfare System is built on the basis that everybody who works/have a job pay at least 9% of their income to sustain the Wellfare System,minimum 28% of income tax,property taxes and a VAT of 23% + more in municipal taxes..The more you pay,the more you receive if you as me have a dissability pension,I worked hard as long as I could and paid a lot of taxes and now I have a good life here in Portugal.To top it up Norway have a lot of natural ressources as oil,natural gas,hydroelectric power and fish which is mostly exported.This have lead to Norway having the worlds greatest pensionfund per capita but this is money for future generations.We share our wealth fairly because our thinking is: "Pay your dues and demand your rights".Nobody in Norway is left out of this system and if you read the info I shared you will see all the benefits you are entitled to and why the UN has put Norway on top for at least the last 5 years.This is my understanding of liberty and freedom and if you understand economics you know that there is "No free Lunch."
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 8, 2016, 2:14 pm
Health care should be a human right in particular when one is living in a Country when 96% of all money made is going to 1%.

Having health care means that when there is contagious illness it can be dealt with quicker as people can see a Doctor and receive treatment. That benefits everyone in society.

Having health care means the employee is showing up to their job feeling in tip top shape. Health care means that they are not working with germs being spread to other employees causing them to lose time out of work. One can produce more if one isn't in pain from an unattended injury.

Having health care for ALL means just that, everyone is receiving the care under a compassionate system and that liberty is that they are all able to live life better because they all feel better which leads to the happiness part.

No one is an island unto themselves and being a purest with the Libertarian thought is simply that, you sink or swim. Many men walk away from their families leaving the women with the children to care for, they fail to be "responsible" to care for those children - it behooves the society to help that woman remain on her feet until she can fully take care of herself and those children - not allow them to sink into some poverty to which they'll never climb out of.

Before Social Security when your Mother or Father, aged Uncle or Aunt needed caring it was the children who had to care for them. They had to bring them into their homes and feed, clothe, provide medical care so on so forth. Back then, most women remained home and took care of that, now women and men are working, so who cares for these people now if they have no social security.

We can't depend that 100% of those people will have a healthy nest egg in particular if all the regulations are removed. We get such little now from our labor, if all regulations are off they'll be no money to set aside for a nest egg there will be no money for most people to pay their daily costs. Again, you assume that everyone is going to be fair under a system that you want, the human condition doesn't work that way.




 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 8, 2016, 2:33 pm
Now I'm going to share a personal story because my Dad lived under the "Live Free or Die" State. They do mean it, my Dad, who was in his seventies and developed a medical problem that affected his ability to be mentally well. A smart man that was well mannered and dressed well became uncaring in his appearance and even took to wandering outside with no clothes on.

Because I worked and I was an only child I tried to hire help to come in to make sure he ate and his safety was assured. Because he said he didn't want them in his house they had to leave, his liberty, his rights. He would not go to the Dr. for medical help, because whatever had taken over his mental self and it happen rather quickly, felt there was no problem so he wouldn't go. I tried to get his Dr. to do a home visit, his Dr. refused (I found out afterwards this Dr. was having sexual affairs in his Office so I guess taking time off to attend to one of his older patients would of taken away his happiness of sex that day). Yes, the latter came out in the newspaper.

I went to the police to at least inform them that if they found a naked older man roaming around that it in fact could be my Father, that he was not well, but I couldn't get medical help for him, as I tried to obtain a new Dr. but no other Dr. would take him on because he had a Dr. Their liberty to say no I guess. I told the police I work, I have tried to hire help to stay with my Father but no one can stay because he tells them to leave. I couldn't get him sent to a hospital because when I called an ambulance he refused to go and they could not force him into the ambulance - his right and liberty.

I spoke to Agencies who could do nothing because my Dad, despite his not being the Dad I knew had the right to roam in the LIve Free or Die State naked if he wanted, he did risk the possibility of being arrested for indecent exposure. So great, he could be arrested and fined but we couldn't get him medical care or attendants to stay in the house. I spoke to a Lawyer who said I could do nothing until a Dr. said Dad was not mentally aware, and that brings us back to I couldn't get him to go to a Dr., couldn't get his Dr. to come to him, nor get another Dr. to look in on him. The Catch 22

A neighbor called up to report that my Dad was wandering around in the road half naked. An Agency was called in and I was pulled up for abuse upon my Father because I couldn't figure out how to take care of him. I had two children, one disabled, a job, and I had to leave my career, bring my disabled son to my Dad's home while my Dad threatened to kill me in front of my son all day, because he was out of his mind.

My son was crying, and I was at my wits end. But my hands were tied because he lived in this "Live Free or Die" State. Well he was freely at will doing his thing with his mind impaired and I had to watch as my son was terrified and suffered and my income dropped so I had less funds to help anyone. One day my Father passed out, and I called an ambulance.

I made sure they brought him to the next State over, which wasn't any further than a hospital within his State. However that State had some "regulations" I know Eric that is a dirty word for you, but in this case those regulations were going to help my Father, myself and my son. Because after he got helped enough to be fit enough to become well enough for them to release him - I said he can't go home and the Veterans Home will take him in, because he had told me if he was never able to care for himself he wanted to go to the Veterans Home.

He would slip in and out of this mental condition so he sounded to them that he was well, he spoke nice to them, he spoke nice to me. But I had explained all that I had gone through, so they kept him awhile longer for observation, and the Nurse standing outside the door heard him threaten to kill me. He also started to catch imaginary flies. He went to the Veterans Home even though he said he didn't want to go, but a ruling by a lawyer in MA said he wasn't able to go back to NH, the Live Free or Die State because he would truly DIE.

Liberty is all fine and well Eric but until you have lived through as close to a Libertarian condition that I had you will find it isn't always what it is cracked up to be. He had funds, he had worked, but in his time of need all that Liberty stuff didn't protect him or me one bit. It was a nightmare. As I said, there is a Goldilocks spot and I hope you'll at least try to find that, and at least read what Arild left. I'm not expecting you to suddenly change your full opinion on this but believe me you need to get deeper down into the weeds to fully see a system you are pushing.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday August 8, 2016, 2:41 pm
The amusing, worrying dark irony also is that those in positions of power, or wealth, also ASSUME they have a basic right to their slice of the pie, at the expense of everyone else.

This is where the imbalance and harm originates from.
 

JL A (281)
Monday August 8, 2016, 4:01 pm
Affordable housing has never been considered a charity concern in any country-and the 2008 collapse was attributable to deregulation (eliminating Glass-Steagall). You spoke of welfare, which does not include housing benefits in the US.
Apparently Eric does not know anything about the actual poverty programs and how they work-just the sound bites he's heard somewhere.
Privatizing government services usually increases the cost (another administrative layer) if you actually get what the contract expected. In most cases, 20% more cost for less service.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday August 8, 2016, 5:34 pm
I'll agree with you on that JL A privatizing tends to increase cost not decrease. Poverty programs also save a lot more in the long run. People who are in a home, feeling safe, have better mental health, they have a place to store their medications. There is a host of offshoots that benefit all of society by making sure that everyone has a certain bottom they can never go below.
 

JL A (281)
Monday August 8, 2016, 7:03 pm
"In the past nine years, Utah has decreased the number of homeless by 72 percent—largely by finding and building apartments where they can live, permanently, with no strings attached. It's a program, or more accurately a philosophy, called Housing First."
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-solution-to-homelessness-utah
http://jobs.utah.gov/housing/scso/documents/homelessness2014.pdf
And they saved the government money by doing so.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 5:57 am
I recall reading about that program in Utah, it needs to be adopted in all States. It changes the scenario that a person must first get sober, must first do this that and the other thing to obtain help for housing. But when the person is living on the streets the alcohol is a numbing against the elements and what is happening around in their life. Who wants to get sober to watch the sewer rats running around or feeling the bugs biting all night.

As I had mentioned above, by having a place to call home it allows the mentally ill a place to store their medication so they can take it on time, isn't stolen from them, and the proper storage helps retain the effectiveness of medication.

It allows a place to get clean and remain clean, a place to store some clothes, it gives dignity back so that the person can start the climb back of dealing with their mental health issues, their alcoholism, a place to look presentable to find employment. It always irks me when people just say all they need to do is go get a job. When one has no place to obtain a safe night's rest and a place to clean up in, getting a job is not so simple.
 

JL A (281)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 6:33 am
An oft forgotten aspect of neoliberalism from an email from The World Can't Wait:
" 3 Years Later, Under Court Order, Obama Administration Releases Redacted Drone Strike "Playbook"

In May 2013, Obama finally acknowledged the U.S. military targeted killing program, and said he would explain how people are chosen to be killed. But it still took an ACLU lawsuit to get the material made public. As if it's all a game, the administration refers to the guidelines as a "playbook."

The Intercept reports, "The guidelines show the process is concentrated at the White House, specifically in the National Security Council. They also describe the process for approving so-called signature strikes, where the target of the strike is not a known 'high value terrorist,' but rather some other 'terrorist target,' which could be a group of people exhibiting suspect behavior, or a vehicle, building or other infrastructure."

We already knew most of this, but still...they get together and decide who to kill from a distance. We know thousands have been killed, including people who were never part of the fight, but made victims because of where they live.

Brian Terrell, of Voices for Creative Non-Violence, who has done his share of jail and prison time for protesting the US drone war, responded to the playbook with:

"In 1960, Adolf Eichmann was asked under interrogation by the Israeli police if he had “acquired the view that the salvation of the German people depended on the extermination of the Jews,” Eichmann replied, “We didn’t have such opinions, we just didn’t. Commands were given, and because they were commands, we obeyed...” Israeli police: “But not if you’re ordered to do something blatantly illegal?” Eichmann: “You say illegal. Today I have a very different view of things...But then? I wouldn’t have considered any of those actions illegal... If anyone had asked me about it up until May 8, 1945, the end of the war, I’d have said: This government was elected by a majority of the German people...every civilized country on earth had its diplomatic mission. Who is a little man like me to trouble his head about it? I get orders from my superior and I look neither right nor left. That’s not my job. My job is to obey and comply.” (quotes from Eichmann Interrogated: Transcripts from the Archives of the Israeli Police DeCopo Books, NY, 1999)

The trials at Nuremberg successfully prosecuted German officials for crimes that did not exist on the books when they were committed. My understanding is that the court’s rationale was that some acts are just so heinous that there is no need for a statute to define them as illegal. In any case, since the end of WWII, there are the Nuremberg decisions, the UN Charter, the Geneva Convention of 1949, that all put Obama’s drone wars clearly in the category of crimes.

Of course, every regime declares itself “legal.” Bush and Cheney had lawyers who could layout a legal rationale for the attack on Iraq and even for torture, just as Clinton had hired legal experts to justify the sanctions on Iraq and the “no-fly zones”, against all evidence that they constituted a war crimes. Saddam also had lawyers who could prove that Kuwait was legally a province of Iraq and that his invasion was justified as a “liberation” and there are lawyers employed by Israel who insist that the West Bank settlements and the blockade of Gaza are legal. It means nothing that any administration judges its own actions as legal, especially when no one else seems to agree. (author's emphasis)."
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday August 9, 2016, 2:40 pm
Therein lies the problem - officials can make anything okay or legal to do it. Even scalping the heads of the American Indians was "legal", a price was set even for the scalp of children as well as adults.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 6:06 am
@JL "Affordable housing has never been considered a charity concern in any country-and the 2008 collapse was attributable to deregulation (eliminating Glass-Steagall). You spoke of welfare, which does not include housing benefits in the US.
Apparently Eric does not know anything about the actual poverty programs and how they work-just the sound bites he's heard somewhere."

So I suppose you think the FED, Fannie, Freddie, artificially low interest rates, government housing "affordability" programs had nothing to do with the housing collapse. If you believe that then it will be a waste of my time to try and explain economics to you.

"Ep. 561 Capitalism: Not Guilty of Creating the Housing Bubble"
http://tomwoods.com/podcast/ep-561-capitalism-not-guilty-of-creating-the-housing-bubble/
"Hidden in Plain Sight: What Really Caused the World’s Worst Financial Crisis and Why It Could Happen Again"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594037701/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1594037701&linkCode=as2&tag=thomacom-20&linkId=NELPE4SQDLG47ZN7

"Privatizing government services usually increases the cost (another administrative layer) if you actually get what the contract expected. In most cases, 20% more cost for less service. "

That may be true if you are talking about adding private contracts on top of government programs and adding a layer of government over-site. Which is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about getting rid of layers, getting government out of things they have no Constitutional authority over. Such as student loans, housing market, healthcare, education, IRS.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 6:22 am
@Dandelion G. "Health care should be a human right in particular when one is living in a Country when 96% of all money made is going to 1%. "

How without using force which would be a violation of someone's rights?

I'll let Dr. Ron Paul explain it as there are few people alive that get the big picture better than Dr. Paul. He understand Liberty, the Constitution, role of government and economics.

"Ron Paul-why Healthcare is not a right"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6oxUVyx10
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 7:06 am
Finally we see what freedom and liberty means to Eric Lees,he's hiding behind those words to avoid paying taxes.Eric, you are a sad excuse for a human beeing.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 10:27 am
This is a poem that I want you to reflect over Eric:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Written by;
Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

And if you don't grasp the meaning of this poem maybe a quote of MLK will put everything into place for you?

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 10:29 am
@Arild "Finally we see what freedom and liberty means to Eric Lees,he's hiding behind those words to avoid paying taxes.Eric, you are a sad excuse for a human beeing. "

Nonsense, what are you talking about? There is no need for personal insults, you do not know me and I've given you no reason to insult me.

Of and I just finished reading the article you linked to. It's comparing Norway to the current USA Crony Capitalist system which I agree is deeply flawed as I have pointed out. It calls the USA an Oligarchy, the same term I use for our 2 party system. The article does not attempt to make the case against Capitalism, quite the opposite as it relies on Capitalism to feed the Norway Welfare state.

Try to stick to the facts Arild. We are not enemies, we are both fighting against a corrupt system rigged against we the people. And I'm guessing our goals are the same. You are better than resorting to insults Arild.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 10:41 am
Is Norway's model sustainable long term though? How long did Venezuela's model function until the collapse of oil prices?

" That has, in fact, meant more to Norwegian prosperity than the coincidental discovery of North Atlantic oil reserves. The Ministry of Finance recently calculated that those additional working mothers add to Norway’s net national wealth a value equivalent to its “total petroleum wealth”—currently held in the world’s largest sovereign-wealth fund, worth over $873 billion. By 1981, women were sitting in parliament, in the prime minister’s chair, and in her cabinet. "
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 10:48 am
" In the Nordic countries, on the other hand, democratically elected governments give their populations freedom from the market by using capitalism as a tool to benefit everyone. That liberates their people from the tyranny of the mighty profit motive that warps so many American lives, leaving them freer to follow their own dreams—to become poets or philosophers, bartenders or business owners, as they please. "

This statement is confusing as the market in Capitalism is freedom. The people control the market as opposed to any other system of central control such as Socialism, Communism, Cronyism. The article seems to both blame free markets and embrace free markets. Which is it? In a free market there is no force, no tyranny, every exchange is voluntary. If it does not benefit both parties either one can walk away. It should be obvious that we do not have a free market in the USA as our government and the FED manipulate our otherwise Capitalist system.

Once again Ron Paul says it better than I:
"To condemn free-market capitalism because of anything going on today makes no sense. There is no evidence that capitalism exists today. We are deeply involved in an interventionist-planned economy that allows major benefits to accrue to the politically connected of both political spectrums. One may condemn the fraud and the current system, but it must be called by its proper names – Keynesian inflationism, interventionism, and corporatism." Ron Paul
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 10:51 am
Thanks Eric,at last you educated yourself by reading the info I provided.
What you have in the USA in uncontrolled Capitalism brought on by Bill Clinton when he wiped out the "Seagall/Glass Act".What happened in 2008 with the "bailout" of the corrupt bankink system is a clear fact of this,if you want to call it QE or "Helicopter Money" makes no difference to me,the fact is that that no escalatet printing of money will healp anybody but the corrupt financial players that you have in the US.

Thats why I and a hell of other people supported Bernie Sanders and we don't see any difference between Trump or Killary.

If I insulted you,so be it,but never come unprepaired to a discussion with me.

Have a nice day.............
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 11:16 am
Note this article does not condemn the Nordic model, it just corrects some misconceptions.

"The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism"

"In the Scandinavian countries, like all other developed nations, the means of production are primarily owned by private individuals, not the community or the government, and resources are allocated to their respective uses by the market, not government or community planning.

While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare, an extensive welfare state is not the same thing as socialism. What Sanders and his supporters confuse as socialism is actually social democracy, a system in which the government aims to promote the public welfare through heavy taxation and spending, within the framework of a capitalist economy. This is what the Scandinavians practice."

"The Scandinavians embrace a brand of free-market capitalism that exists in conjunction with a large welfare state, known as the “Nordic Model,” which includes many policies that democratic socialists would likely abhor."

Education:
In a move that would be considered radically pro-capitalist by young Americans who #FeelTheBern, Sweden adopted a universal school choice system in the 1990s that is nearly identical to the system proposed by libertarian economist Milton Friedman his 1955 essay, “The Role of Government in Education.”

In practice, the Swedish system involves local governments allowing families to use public funds, in the form of vouchers, to finance their child’s education at a private school, including schools run by the dreaded for-profit corporation.

Far from being a failure, as the socialists thought it would be, Sweden's reforms were a considerable success. According to a study published by the Institute for the Study of Labor, the expansion of private schooling and competition brought about by the Swedish free-market educational reforms “improved average educational performance both at the end of compulsory school and in the long run in terms of high school grades, university attendance, and years of schooling.”
https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 11:26 am
Is the Nordic model sustainable and is their country strong because of or despite the their system?
"No way, Norway!"

"The article makes several good points about the effects of bureaucratization and high-tax welfare on entrepreneurship and corporate culture in a country where the government owns 40% of the stock market and employs 33% of the workforce (almost double the percentage in OECD countries)."

"The long-run consequences of a welfare state are always a decline in prosperity leading to impoverishment, but their outward symptoms may often be misleading, if the market, while hampered, remains powerful enough to weather the taxes and still progress. Even if one inconspicuously burns only one piece of furniture every year, it does not mean the model is working, but only that the reveal of its inadequacy is postponed.

It is therefore crucial to inquire whether these models are working not by comparing static pictures of an economy, but by looking at its counterfactual evolution. How prosperous would Norway have been had it not created a huge welfare state atop a well-functioning free market? How prosperous would Sweden or Denmark have been if they hadn’t slowly consumed from or impeded more capital accumulation in the past decades?

The answer is that Nordic countries prospered in spite of the Scandinavian model, not because of it. The Scandinavian welfare state has simply never worked."

https://mises.org/blog/no-way-norway:

 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 11:58 am
@Arild Warud "Thanks Eric,at last you educated yourself by reading the info I provided.
What you have in the USA in uncontrolled Capitalism brought on by Bill Clinton when he wiped out the "Seagall/Glass Act".What happened in 2008 with the "bailout" of the corrupt bankink system is a clear fact of this,if you want to call it QE or "Helicopter Money" makes no difference to me,the fact is that that no escalatet printing of money will healp anybody but the corrupt financial players that you have in the US.

Thats why I and a hell of other people supported Bernie Sanders and we don't see any difference between Trump or Killary.

If I insulted you,so be it,but never come unprepaired to a discussion with me. "

Why is it that Sanders refuses to condemn the FED then and their role in the housing collapse or the vast inequality they helped create? The housing collapse did not happen under "uncontrolled Capitalism". You even point out the FED QE bailouts, obviously that is not the free market. That's a clear contradiction.

Your comment shows your lack of understanding of the housing collapse, yet you call me unprepared. Was I unprepared, maybe on the specifics about Norway but not in the larger context. Still that is no reason to insult someone just because they have a difference of opinion. What ever happened to respecting others opinion?

As I've said as well there is no difference in the big picture between Clinton & Trump or between the 2 parties. They are 2 sides of the same Oligarchy coin.

See we do agree on some things. :)
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 1:34 pm
D wrote: "An Agency was called in and I was pulled up for abuse upon my Father because I couldn't figure out how to take care of him. I had two children, one disabled, a job, and I had to leave my career, bring my disabled son to my Dad's home while my Dad threatened to kill me in front of my son all day, because he was out of his mind."

"He had funds, he had worked, but in his time of need all that Liberty stuff didn't protect him or me one bit. It was a nightmare."

Thank you for sharing. Your words have weight.

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 1:43 pm
Eric, many of Ron Paul's policies would catapult us all back to 19th century. We've been there, done that. The US was essentially all rural, remember? Most towns weren't larger than 2,500 residents. Philadelphia and New York City were the biggest cities. Paul's politics and policies would have a home in the 1860's when there were 31 million Americans spread across our vast country, but now there are 375 million, so such policies would not work well -- no labor laws or child labor laws, civil rights, Social Security, Medicare, environmental regulations, no public education.....just voluntary this or voluntary that....

Libertarians and conservatives (like Grover Norquist) supreme goal is to reduce the size and scope of government to the size where "we can drown it in a bathtub". They fail to see ANY positive functions of government - except those that existed in 19th century. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is more complex for 375 million than for 31 million. Corporations and elite bankers have the most power NOT the government. Their power needs to be reduced so 'we can drown it in a bathtub'. They are the corrupting force hindering the real government of We The People. Start focusing on the source of the problem.

Paul is correct about the two-party trance, but again it comes back to corporations who easily play "both sides".

Dandelion mentioned: "there is a Goldilocks spot and I hope you'll at least try to find that, and at least read what Arild left." Here are a few another articles to help you expand your knowledge base and get 'deeper into the weeds', Eric. Look into the ethics not just the numbers or liberties when you have time, the lesson may be that Libertarian "individuation" is not necessary at this point in "time":

"Worker democracies are unusual, but they are not unique. The financial structure of the Mondragon Cooperative Complex has no parallel in the world. Let's take a look all the key pieces."

http://www.globaldialoguecenter.com/Joel-Barker-Mondragon-article.pdf


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

 

Animae C (507)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 8:17 pm
WOW!!!!

Tracking again, thanx Dandelion, JL A, Alrid, Darren & Randy
 

Animae C (507)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 8:24 pm
Signed;
Add Your Name to Oppose Expanded Airstrikes in Libya

https://go.barbaraleeforcongress.org/page/s/airstrikes-in-libya

 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday August 10, 2016, 11:35 pm
Signed petition.

I'd rather know from the experienced horses mouth about a country than from someone sat in an armchair presents from the Internet.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Thursday August 11, 2016, 1:52 am
Eric,you are building your economic wievs on Libertarian thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute

"In an article written on Institute Chairman Lew Rockwell's website, Jacob Huebert observes that socially liberal libertarians have often accused the Mises Institute of racism. He calls the charges erroneous and argues that they might stem from the support of some Institute scholars for immigration restrictions, its support of Confederate secession, or its uncompromising stand on libertarian issues.[29]

In 2003, Chip Berlet of the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described the Mises Institute as "a major center promoting libertarian political theory and the Austrian School of free market economics", also noting Rothbard's opposition to child labor laws and the anti-immigrant views of other Institute scholars.[30] Heidi Beirich, also with the SPLC, describes the Institute as "a hard-right libertarian foundation".

Facts about the Norwegian Pension Fund:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

"Since 1998, the fund has been allowed to invest up to 40 percent of its portfolio in the international stock market. In June 2009, the ministry decided to raise the stock portion to 60 percent. In May 2014, the Central Bank governor proposed raising the rate to 70 percent.[8] The Norwegian government planned that up to 5 percent of the fund should be invested in real estate, beginning in 2010.[9] A specific policy for the real estate investments was suggested in a report the Swiss Partners Group wrote for the Norwegian Ministry of Finance.[10] The fund's current investment strategy dictates 60% equities, 35% fixed income, and 5% real estate. Of the fixed income sector, 70% is invested in bonds issued by governments and 30% is issued by the corporate sector.[11]

Norway's sovereign wealth fund is taking steps to become more active in company governance. In the second quarter of 2013, the sovereign fund voted in 6,078 general meetings as well as 239 shareholder proposals on environmental and social issues. Norway's Government Pension Fund Global (GPFG) has the potential to influence the corporate governance market in Europe, possibly China as well, greatly.[12] It has also started to become active in pushing for lower executive pay."

Yes about 1/3 of the workforce are more or less employed to make the Wellfare System work.

Yes Eric you can find a lot of obscure info on the www,there will always be bloggers and suspect Institutes that cater for every perssons view,so I have only used Wikipedia this time,it's the closest I could find to an unbiast factfinder.

 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Thursday August 11, 2016, 1:56 am
I have also stopped tracking this post,it doesn't make any sence to prolong this discussion.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday August 11, 2016, 4:44 am
Randy Q's comment was right on target of Wednesday August 10, 2016, 1:43 pm.

Thanks all for your input into the topic - although I do find virtue in some of what the Libertarians offer I'm in agreement with Randy, in a Country such as ours today, there is no way that it would work without there being massive problems due to it. Long gone are the Little House on the Prairie days.

Again, there is the Goldilocks place, after all the Govt. IS We The People - we just need an electorate that is an educated electorate and that begins with teaching Civics and such in school, getting children to be the participating citizens they should be and need to be. We also need to have election reform so that when a person is born they become an automatic voter at age 18. We need a Free Press too much of what passes for "news" is entertainment to keep people away from the real issues going on today. In fact everything is so backwards. our comedians are offering better information than the so called "news" channels.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Wednesday September 14, 2016, 11:59 am
We need to change the way we vote. I'm guessing over half of the people that will vote for either Clinton or Trump are voting for whom they think is the lesser evil and not the best candidate.

What if we could vote for more than one with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on choices?
Then the whole false argument that voting for 3rd party is somehow a vote for the most evil Oligarchy candidate.

"We believe it will reduce negative campaigning (...) because candidates will need to appeal to a broader range of voters for first- and second-choice rankings to build a majority of support.

Ranked-choice voting also helps create a richer and, hopefully, more civil dialogue on the issues and increases the diversity of views available for voters to consider by allowing candidates from outside the two major parties to compete."

—League of Women Voters of Maine
http://www.fairvote.org/
 
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