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Why Hillary Clinton Is More Dangerous Than Donald Trump


World  (tags: Hillary Clinton, USA, Donald Trump, Australia, war, China, Ukraine, Russia, Marshall Islands, world war, China, Pacific )

Sheryl
- 858 days ago - newmatilda.com
Where are those who will shatter the silence? Or do we wait until the first nuclear missile is fired?



   

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Comments

Peggy B (43)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 6:02 pm
I won't be voting for her. I agree with the article. TYFS
 

JL A (281)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 6:08 pm
While much of the facts he used to make his points were familiar to me, there were a couple that weren't...including most which involved Australia not included in most analyses like this I've read. Thanks Dandelion. All who care about peace and/or social justice should take note.
 

MmAway M (519)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 6:08 pm
Sheryl, I started to read this and had to rush off.
Will track a bit!
 

Animae C (507)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 6:14 pm
"The Obama administration has built more nuclear weapons, more nuclear warheads, more nuclear delivery systems, more nuclear factories. Nuclear warhead spending alone rose higher under Obama than under any American president. The cost over thirty years is more than $1 trillion."

Which Hillary will probably, more than likely, surely, USE!

It all sounds so very Hollywood, but of course it's real!!!

Brilliant article by John Pilger at the University of Sydney, entitled ‘A World War Has Begun’.
 

MmAway M (519)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 6:26 pm
OUTSTANDING ANIMAE!!! COULD NOT OF SAID THIS BETTER!!! TY
 

Mike H (252)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 7:28 pm
Scary that many people will vote for her just because she is a woman
 

Patrice Z (16)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 7:30 pm
Thanks for sharing.
 

Animae C (507)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 7:55 pm
i'm doin OK for an Aussie, eh Marilyn! : )
 

MmAway M (519)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 8:01 pm
Any an Hello to you the Aussie for ME...Marilyn ~ gotta smile! Votes???
 

Ann Marie T (1)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 10:21 pm
I hadn't heard most of the claims in the article before. I also read a good deal of the comments. People might want to read those also. I am left wondering what is true…I really don't trust those in politics. It seems there is no one to vote for in this presidential election who is trustworthy.
 

MmAway M (519)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 11:06 pm
Sadly, I have to agree AM T...

Don't know what to do when the USA gives people a choice and kinda takes control.

Grave issue with me and I won't address this in political issues like I did in 2012 here on this site. JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION.

I believe you all need to READ/KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON/BE AWARE/NOTHING IS FOR FREE/ Knowledge is your power and VOTE FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE in. I personally would abort the Clinton's ~ They get back in office ?????? Good grief!

While I worked for a President in the past RR I respected his behavior and I was with his staff in Mexico. This mess in the past decades is beyond my belief.

NO Clinton's again in the White House.ENOUGH Destruction! Get another person!

 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday October 16, 2016, 11:48 pm
Completely unfit for any office, other than that of war monger and exploiter.
Shared to spread awareness.
 

Daniel Partlow (179)
Monday October 17, 2016, 5:26 am
Where the heck does this leave us now??!!??
 

Barb SiteIssues V (202)
Monday October 17, 2016, 5:46 am
Noted. Thank You
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 17, 2016, 5:52 am
Your choice is fairly simple, Daniel. You vote for Dr. Jill Stein.

Listen and watch Dr. Jill Stein respond to the 2nd Presidential Fiasco called a Debate between Clinton and Trump
Jill Stein’s responds during 2nd Presidential Election debate.
WATCH: Jill Stein Responds During the Second Presidential Debate Video
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 17, 2016, 6:48 am
I REALLY strongly recommend studying the Podesta email leaks at WikeLeaks!
There is a lot of interesting stuff, believe me! Once you read some of it, you'll know why it makes zero difference who wins the election. As in 2008, all has been preplanned already.
The finance industry has been running the US and shall continue to do so. Either same as before with puppet admin under HRC-or, should te parliamentary order fail and crash-as a dictatorial system under DT. Who is less dependent on Wall St, but yet belongs to the 1% power elite setting the path with guarantee for things to remain in place.

some links I'd suggest:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-new-emails-reveal-state-department-photo-session-clinton-primary-sponsors-clinton-global-initiative/

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8190 >> below the download links for the attached Word docs! really interesting 'lists' there!! shows the prepicked Obama cabinet..

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails//fileid/8190/2372
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails//fileid/8190/2373

In summary: https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 17, 2016, 7:43 am
That's new to me, have't seen those. But I would assume with high probability that certainly any private data were redacted regarding the individuals, even if some details were perhaps exposed as you claim.
Beyond that, AP-like most MSM period- cannot be trusted either, given the role they played in the primary! Not to mention the rest of propaganda re Syria..!
 

Animae C (507)
Monday October 17, 2016, 8:10 am
The lesser of two evils.... is still EVIL!
 

Ed Site Issues V (198)
Monday October 17, 2016, 8:18 am
Noted, Thanks
 

Animae C (507)
Monday October 17, 2016, 8:28 am

Wikileaks Emails REVEAL Hillary Campaign Pushed Negative “Facts” About Obama In 2008

http://wearechange.org/wikileaks-emails-reveal-hillary-campaign-pushed-negative-facts-obama-2008/
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 17, 2016, 9:02 am
Shared all over social media, AniMae, thanks.
 

Ben O (135)
Monday October 17, 2016, 10:09 am
More dangerous than Donald Trump...??? -HELP us all!!!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday October 17, 2016, 10:44 am
Where does that leave us, the only voice the "We the People" have for the White House is to vote in Jill Stein.

Well you just keep sticking to your story there Nyack about my being a Trump supporter despite the fact that I have always supported Bernie Sanders, who would of won over Trump by a landslide. But the DNC pushed a Corporate Democrat to be there for the 1%, one they knew would work for them, keeping this status quo as she has already told everyone she'd do. So if you like war and economic lack for the majority of people - you'll love Hillary then.

As Bernie was removed by election fraud the only sane vote that is available to me is The Green Party and Dr. Jill Stein, which I've also made clear. A shame that if you are not voting for Hillary then you must be the Trump supporter - total BS but some will carry on with the Hillary camp propaganda. I also post news on Hillary because there are others who post a lot of news about Trump so I try not to duplicate. I also post a lot of non Hillary stories too - but there is one on here that doesn't want to see any of those truths, no more than she wants to learn that her darling, she isn't even voting for, is an equally flawed Candidate as Trump.

I thank those who took the time to read this - as Dr. Jill Stein said, vote as if your life counted on it because it does. I say, read and learn because your life depends upon it, because it does.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday October 17, 2016, 10:52 am
Another matter, it seems no matter what source I use or what journalistic integrity is behind the source it will never be good enough for the one on here that will toot Hillary's horn. I mean even the devil himself has those who worship him.

This article is written by John Pilger and I'm sure Nyack is a much higher authority than he. After all he has only made films, written books, wrote in numerous publicans, magazines and newspapers. He is a website contributor on many independent forums, he has been on TV and radio, has a University degree and has won the following awards.

Honours
D. Arts, Lincoln University
D. Litt, Staffordshire University
D. Litt Rhodes University, South Africa
D. Phil, Dublin City University
D. Arts, Oxford Brookes University
D. Laws, St.Andrew's University
D. Phil, Kingston University
D. Univ, The Open University
1995 Edward Wilson Fellow, Deakin University, Melbourne
Frank H.T. Rhodes Professor, Cornell University, USA
Selected Awards
1966: Descriptive Writer of the Year
1967: Reporter of the Year
1967: Journalist of the Year
1970: International Reporter of the Year
1974: News Reporter of the Year
1977: Campaigning Journalist of the Year
1979: Journalist of the Year
1979-80: UN Media Peace Prize, Australia
1980-81: UN Media Peace Prize, Gold Medal, Australia
1979: TV Times Readers' Award
1990: The George Foster Peabody Award, USA
1991: American Television Academy Award ('Emmy')
1991: British Academy of Film and Television Arts - The Richard Dimbleby Award
1990: Reporters San Frontiers Award, France
1995: International de Television Geneve Award
2001: The Monismanien Prize (Sweden)
2003: The Sophie Prize for Human Rights (Norway)
2003: EMMA Media Personality of the Year
2004: Royal Television Society Best Documentary, 'Stealing a Nation'
2008: Best Documentary, One World Awards, 'The War On Democracy'
2009: Sydney Peace Prize
2011: Grierson Trustees' Award

But Nyack will bypass all of that, choosing instead to not learn, and joins far too many in keeping with far too many who do the bidding for the 1% and keeping us on the road to hell. A pity when people will not in the least bit try to learn and see that supporting what the 1% has neatly packaged for them is not in their best interest nor anyone else. Is far to easy to shoot the messenger rather than learning some information that might be painful to finally look at but at least they don't keep pushing the 1% agenda that is killing so many.
 

Sheila D (194)
Monday October 17, 2016, 1:12 pm
Trash info overload here...not going to read more about the polls and predictions, about why one evil is better than another and really don't want to see the debates that have become Farce. Until I actually vote, will be noting but not reading anymore about the candidates. Have made my decision who I'll vote for and won't need any more info to make my choice. Thanx All for your timely and interesting comments...they really have clarified my choice, at least to me. Thanx Dandelion for the timely posts...
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 17, 2016, 2:36 pm
Watch Dr. Jill Stein in action responding to the 2nd Presidential Debate between the incompetents, Trump and Clinton.

Jill Stein’s responds during 2nd Presidential Election debate.
WATCH: Jill Stein Responds During the Second Presidential Debate Video
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 17, 2016, 2:43 pm
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WorjXvqQ8so *
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday October 17, 2016, 3:37 pm
Well that was different Angelika but it did get some points across.
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Monday October 17, 2016, 3:39 pm
Noted. Thanks for posting, Dandelion.

Yes, she has been putting all her ducks in a row for many, many years.
I was glad to read here:
"As presidential election day draws near, Clinton will be hailed as the first female president, regardless of her crimes and lies--just as Barack Obama was lauded as the first black president and liberals swallowed his nonsense about "hope". And the drool goes on."

It is just one big machine, and all the women who think Clinton is going to do well by them, are going to be sadly finding that she's just another Big Corporatist, also in league with the Banksters.
Obama promised to end the wars, and then he SURGED in Afghanistan.
He got rid of torture (at least publicly, to our knowledge), but now drone-bombs innocents every Tuesday.

I don't have to hold my nose, because I'm voting for Dr. Jill Stein.
If the Dems really had wanted to win this election, they wouldn't have cheated Bernie. That is unforgivable. And, they have lost a member of their party here.
I am so thankful to Julian Assange and WikiLeaks for exposing the truth. He has no dog in this fight; he is a publisher of facts. And, also a man in his right mind who prefers peace over war.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 17, 2016, 3:47 pm
I find it astonishing that people are so riddled with conditioning for their beloved Democrats and Republicans, that they swallow the propaganda that Ed Snowden and Julian Assange are the enemy [Trump has publicly said he thinks Snowden should be shot. . . ], when it's as clear as day that these guys are public heroes and deserve our highest veneration and respect for what they're published to show our "leaders" are a bunch of war-mongering, eavesdropping, arrogant, obsessive, control freaks.

I'm not sure who has it worse. Britain or America. . . Your issues are bigger in scale, certainly.
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 17, 2016, 6:09 pm
Thanks Angie
 

Robert B (60)
Monday October 17, 2016, 6:27 pm
I have researched what Matilda.com said about Obama and nuclear weapons. So far it does not hold water.
We have reduced from 70,000 down to about 4,000 and under Obama that number is STILL going down.
 

Robert B (60)
Monday October 17, 2016, 6:33 pm
I have to say that Herr Drumpf IS THE MOST DANGEROUS. He promotes violence,hate, bigotry and if he were President he would have us in a worldwide quagmire of war. His core followers are crazy! Just like Hitler's Brown Shirts.
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 17, 2016, 8:49 pm
We are replacing older and unstable ones is what I've read Robert--no actual reductions since Obama took office and the replacement costs are astronomical so the cost estimate may be correct. Also, I read elsewhere that this administration is developing smaller nuclear bombs...
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 6:29 am
Correct on the smaller nuclear bombs JL A. And other articles I read backs up John's assessment, many that were also dismantled were already started under the Bush Administration so were already in the planning to be done.

I'm not saying Donald Trump isn't dangerous either, but at least he tells one clearly where he is at, beware of the ones that smile to the face and stab you in the back. To me, they are always the more dangerous ones.

I've been also reading about people from many various Countries including the USA, those who do study foreign policy and such and almost all agree, they are more leery of Hillary being at the helm, and look at all the neocon Republicans Robert that she is drawing into her camp that are from both the Reagan and Bush Administrations.

I think too many people are only seeing one over the other when the people need to be looking at both of them as dangerous. Remember there are other people to vote for, if we keep voting for DT or HC one out of the two will certainly get into power, and neither will be good for us domestically nor foreign policy.
 

John De Avalon (36)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 12:42 pm
They're both unfit for office! but one of them will be President ...

If my memory is correct Ronald Reagan threatened to launch a nuclear strike on Tehran on day one of his Presidency if the Iranian had not released the American Embassy hostages. They did and he didn't, thankfully.
Some pretty colourful characters have made it into the White House over the years.
 

Janet B (0)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 12:54 pm
Thanks
 

Birgit W (160)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 1:01 pm
People call her "Hitlary" for many reasons. Thanks Dandelion.
 

Donna G (42)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 1:16 pm
That was an interesting article. I've read John Pilger before. RSN has even put some of his articles in its newsletter. But, I will be glad when the election is over; because, I'm so tired of the anti-Trump articles.

There is no reason why most of us have to vote for Trump or Clinton. We do have another choice. She has ballot access in 48 states, as well as Washington, DC. You can be sure Dr. Stein will not lead us into another war. She has a well thought out foreign policy that if it can be implemented, would save our country a lot of money. If you have not read her plan, go to Stein2016.com/platform and scroll down to the section on Peace and Human Rights. Dr. Stein is smart, compassionate, ethical, and has integrity.

Please do not be so afraid of Donald Trump that you feel you have to vote for Clinton. Jill Stein could be our first woman President. People tell me that she can't win because she's polling such low numbers. Remember, though, the national polls are biased to favor the Democrats and Republicans. The pollsters contact likely voters and those voters are for the most part identified as Democrats or Republicans. So, the polls can be somewhat misleading, since Independents make up the largest segment of voters.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 1:17 pm
Birgit hit the nail right on top!! There's a range from $hillary to Hellary, covering Hitlery, they ALL fit!
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 1:43 pm
PLEASE read and follow Donna's advice, she is SPOT ON! Aside from Dandelion, who's been preaching this for ages !! Polls ARE rigged too!
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 1:47 pm
And why feel that domestic policy would be more important or of matter to you when the fatal foreign policy of Clinton would or could make all domestic stuff null and void with one nuke stroke hitting across the pond ?!?!
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 2:07 pm
As much delusional crap talk Trump has been spitting around, he never said he'd front up Putin, something Hellary has made no secret of from start! and THAT is what counts- never mind all other countries a DT might want to be warring.. SHE REALLY has bad judgement on that!
 

Colleen L (3)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 2:30 pm
Thanks Dandelion
 

Lyn Franks (18)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 2:43 pm
Hold on folks. As much as I respect Dandelion, this article provides not one reliable source or citation. Sorry if I come off a bit skeptical.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 2:49 pm
Lyn, there's an absolute wealth of information on YouTube regarding Hillary Clinton's unsuitability as President, AND that of Donald Trump.

Check this out also:
Jill Stein’s responds during 2nd Presidential Election debate.
WATCH: Jill Stein Responds During the Second Presidential Debate Video
 

Anne K (139)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 4:23 pm
I'm voting for Jill Stein.
 

Janet R (38)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 5:18 pm
The premise of this article is this is ridiculous. No one is worse than Trump. I really hope you people get some common sense before the election. Jill Stein has no chance, you are just wasting your vote. How effective will she be if Congress is still Republican? She will accomplish nothing. At least, Hillary knows how to work with others. I guess it's ok if it gets you to the polls to vote in state and local races. When Hillary wins, I will be gloating and you all deserve it. But, you are entitled to your opinion no matter what since we still live in a country with a 1st amendment right. Don't count on that right if Trump is elected.
 

Trish K (29)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 6:04 pm
We need to focus on turning congress blue. If we do not, then it won't matter who gets in. Same old do nothing bunch of bullies, jerks, liars, and felons. I will mix it up tomorrow door to door reminding people to vote blue if they would ever like anything but war to happen in this country. Last day to register to vote is tomorrow in my state. If I voted for Stein in my Blue state it would just be throwing my vote away, but to vote for Stein in a Purple state is a vote for Trump. Bernie say's Don't Do It unless you know they can win. He is a team player who knows how to stay in the game and get things done. We have to pull down every republican in every state. I have hand written letters to google, apple, etc., asking them to keep track of the bright minds that surround them and back them in a political career if they want one. We need the Koch's out and the young people speaking for what they are about to inherit for their world. It no longer belongs to us but it is up to us to focus on the important way to make change for them. It is clear to me to get the red out , and some of the blue. Vote blue on everything - Clean house - replenish greatly with great care to the future .
 

Mandi T (366)
Tuesday October 18, 2016, 10:12 pm

All of the above. This will go down in history as the worst election ever. Our politics are broken. TY Sheryl
 

John De Avalon (36)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 6:41 am
Hillary will win. I've no doubt.

Donald Trump was the wrong candidate at the right time.

But no matter how you look at it, there is one almighty dissatisfaction with mainstream politics in America.
All this opens the door for a great reformer to step out of the shadows next time around.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 8:31 am
. . . next time around. . . factor into that, how people lapse back into complacency, and become used to the current "status quo"

There are a few weeks left before this Presidential fiasco reaches its conclusion, and worryingly, but tellingly, some have clearly given up.
 

Wayne W (12)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 12:12 pm
John Pilger & His Crackpot Conspiracy Theories Discredited on Q&A
http://menzieshouse.typepad.com/menzies-house/2011/02/john-pilger-his-crackpot-conspirasy-theories-discredited.html

Pilger's Sick Conspiracy Theory
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/pilgers-sick-conspiracy-theory/news-story/e147a50bf86bc5838d56bf72f57b9eaf?nk=d7a06b802420014c41026b5bf7093f4a-1476904049

Seek verifiable reductions in nuclear stockpiles
New START ratified by the Senate
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/195/seek-verifiable-reductions-in-nuclear-stockpiles/

The new START pact commits the U.S. and Russia to reduce the number of strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550 -- down from the current limit of 2,200.That's 74 percent lower than the limit of the 1991 START Treaty and 30 percent lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty

In addition, the countries agreed to cut to 800 the combined limit of deployed and nondeployed ICBM launchers, SLBM launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments. It also includes a separate combined limit of 700 for deployed ICBMs, deployed SLBMs, and deployed heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments.

In other words, it addresses Obama's goal of reducing nuclear weapons -- whether deployed or nondeployed, whether strategic or nonstrategic.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 1:44 pm
Next, they need to agree to cut down on the number of actual airstrikes. . .

Then, an agreement to cut funding to the actual weapons / arms suppliers.
 

Trish K (29)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 1:57 pm
There is no room for complacency - Get Out There and Vote - It was fun finding out that everyone I talked to today was registered and were going to Vote. It took seconds to look it up on the iPad and ease their minds. Voting Is Tradition. It's American. It's a party you get dressed up for in New England and then go to the pub to listen to everyone talk. ha -I am Unenroled in Massachusetts (one of the Colonies) Just means I don't kiss the butt of any party - I am an Independent that can vote my consciousness . I choose to Fight and challenge others to get up - paint your face blue and go VOTE. We are all tired - we know what we have to do for the future of our country. I don't think I am allowed to paint my face blue until after I vote, it's like wearing a T-Shirt with a D or a R on it . Intimidating. I have volunteered to give rides on election day. If you have never done so - give it a try. I meet the most interesting people and then, not. It's always a fun trip and I feel better. It is time to Fight for the Future. Turn the congress blue.
Get out there be loud and proud and confident that blue is our color and it behaves better than red. Hillary has practiced and studied for this job for 30 years. She is qualified and competent. She is not the story the Koch's have been poisoning the pot with for years. She is ready to go-like it or not she is smart and as a politician-she is doing exactly what she should be doing.-running for office. Leave it to the professionals.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 6:09 pm
Lyn the writer of this article is John Pilger a regular contributor to New Matilda, and an award-winning Australian journalist and documentary film-maker. Some of his more famous works include Secret Country, Utopia and Cambodia: Year Zero. I also left a slew of awards and honors that he has earned over the years in one of my above comments. This isn't some unknown person.

One can cross check what he speaks about on the internet, that should be expected when doing your own research. John mentions within the article some of his sources and I've even posted some stories along the way from other sources that backs up what he has written. I'm not sure what else you are expecting here.

Janet R - common sense eh? Well that is exactly how the Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein supporters feel about those that will continue to vote for one of the two Party Corporatists. Yes, Hillary knows how to work with others, is why she is so popular with the Banksters and the Bush and Reagan neocons. Sorry you've fallen for the lesser or two evil and I guess you can gloat all you want with the boot crushing your neck. Within the last 35 to 40 years we've had both Republicans and Democrats and we've sunk deeper and deeper into a Corporate coup.

But don't let the truth get in the way. I know most people only go from election cycle to election cycle and not to the historical research of what has transpired over those decades. The two party duopoly expects that of most people and you've not failed them - hence we keep getting to do this ever more dangerous dance that the two Parties are playing a tune to.

Albert Einstein said doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is insanity. I guess many of the people are use to living in this insane asylum, but more and more are seeing the light, coming out of the fog, waking up, however you want to call it. Perhaps not enough this election, but more have had their eyes opened with this election than at any other time. So enjoy your gloating Party and be sure to hold on, because Ms Status Quo is not going to be an easy ride any more than Trump.

Hate to disappoint you Trish but just as many wars take place under the Democratic rule as Republican. all of the major U.S. wars in the 20th century—World War I, II, Korea and Vietnam—were entered by Democratic administrations. Harry Truman, a Democrat, is still the only world leader to use a nuclear bomb on a population.
 

Janet B (0)
Wednesday October 19, 2016, 7:16 pm
Thanks
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 12:03 am
Shared Dandelion's original article over social media
 

. (0)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 1:10 am
Not buying this shit. Trump would use the nuke codes in the first week on the job because another President said his hair looked stupid, or he has an orange tan.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 1:29 am
Trish makes a very important point - "We need to focus on turning congress blue. "
I notice the assumption that the GOP would still have the majority in Congress -
As Trish says - that's up to you voters! Make sure that they DON'T get the majority of seats ...

I suspect that the defeatism "3rd party have no chance" has been a self-fulfilling prediction, because so many people are so afraid of Trump winning that they have closed out consideration of alternatives. This has meant that their focus narrows to "two candidates" and they "accept" that the media, the debates, etc avoid giving coverage to third party alternatives who ARE addressing the issues of concern rather than playing the insults game.

(Even when specifically requested NOT to refer to their opponents during their respective half hour on the Commander-in-Chief Forum last month, NEITHER could get through answers without slamming the other - see
Hillary Clinton Participates In Commander-In-Chief Forum (Full) | NBC News
Donald Trump Participates in Commander-In-Chief Forum (Full) | NBC News
Transcript Read Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump’s Remarks at a Military Forum)

(Trevor Noah's commentary on that event is good: The Daily Show - Matt Lauer Botches the Commander-In-Chief Forum)

From where I stand - "plague or cholera" sums up the choice if one accepts the tunnel 2-person option.
Both are dangerous - for very different reasons. But dangerous ...
And perhaps even more dangerous are the causes of these "diseases" - a sickness in society that brings us faced with this parody of democracy. (For "lesser evil" choice is NOT democracy.) And both main candidates have vested interest in NOT treating the causes, just in disguising the symptoms as being "normal".

BUT there are alternatives there; too many people just don't know enough about them. Indeed, many have been frozen by the fear generated by HC and haven't even really explored & tried to understand what they are offering. No - they aren't "perfect" - but with a blue Congress (spattered with a number of Greens), they offer alternatives. I'd lean towards Jill Stein, I admit. She doesn't have an ego problem that would prevent her from getting the best advisors to guide her where she lacks experience. And I like her priorities ...

An interesting commentary on what these elections represent ...
Our Neutron Bomb Election

Thanks Dandelion ...
 

. (0)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 1:35 am
Dandelion, I expected better from you. Do you want crazy Trump to be elected, because you are doing exactly what he wants! Jill Stein.....in it for herself only, and an ant -vaxxer to boot. By voting for a 3rd party candidate, you must want Trump to win. It's not my country, but Trump poses a high risk for the entire world's safety , so I will add my views to this debate to set the record straight.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 2:14 am
I see you've fallen for the propaganda being peddled by the Hillary camp about Dr. Jill Stein being in it for herself.

The only one's in it for themselves are the two main candidates that the Corporate Elites would have you believe are the only two viable candidates, also complete bullsh$t.
 

Julie W (33)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 3:22 am
Thanks Dandelion. I've always had great respect for John Pilger.
 

. (0)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 4:08 am
Trump it is then,lol.
 

Arild Gone for now (174)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 4:17 am
I think it's questionable to call Killary worse than "The Donald",but it's your choice and you'll end up with one of them anyway.In last night's debate "The Donald" would only respect the result if he won?????
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 7:32 am
Personally, after watching last debate I am very grateful this long overdue issue got picked up and -finally- wide media attention: the decades long practice of rigging elections!
all other voices prevously raising this burning issue got silenced,evidentlyit takes/took the position of a presidential candidate to be heard speaking out in unprecidented what could shake wayu the entire house of cards called 'American democracy'!
That is a good thing, forces people to THINK and LOOK CLOSELY at their history. I hope the discussion in public sphere continues long after this election!
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 7:38 am
http://projectveritasaction.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDc8PVCvfKs (Part 2)
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 7:53 am
Oh, and as for Arild's remark: I am ALSO happy to see one more positive side to DT-aside from his reasonable stance to not be hostile toward Russia- and that's not playing along with this disastrous PC! That political correctness has RUINED many careers and lives, time to drop it and behave more natural.
 

Janet B (0)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 1:52 pm
Thanks
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 3:39 pm
While I understand your sentiment Ros, there are children in the USA that have had no say in matters, there are mentally challenged that have had no say in matters, and there are, believe it or not, people who are doing as much as they can to not have this situation ongoing.

As Noam Chomsky said, "The general population in the USA doesn't know what is happening and it doesn't even know that it doesn't know." That is a pretty profound statement but very accurate.

Thanks everyone for links that you left, I hope some people will look at them, I know I'll check them out as soon as I'm able. I also agree with Angelika, Trump has finally called certain things out, good, people are feeling uncomfortable, good, they should.

Angelflowers, if people voted for a 3rd Party we'd not have to have either Trump nor Hillary. People need to think about that. It is an option as well.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 3:52 pm
Trevor Noah should of also brought up concerning the coin toss that Hillary lost - why did she win every coin toss against Bernie during the primaries. Oh it's a close vote, let's toss a coin, Hillary won, Hillary won, Hillary won 6x she won but here, she didn't.
 

Marcella T (0)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 4:43 pm
It's no coincidence that she and her supporters use "We can't trust Trump with the nuclear codes" as a talking point. She wants, at the very least, the ability to use them.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 5:04 pm
People forget that her husband, Bill Clinton, lost the nuclear codes. Hillary Clinton Suggested Trump Couldn't Be Trusted With The Nuclear Codes, Did She Forget Bill Lost Them
 

Debra G (0)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 5:42 pm
Yeah, he's won awards and raised awareness of some egregious issues, but Pilger is also known to be rabidly anti-UK and anti-American. Jonathan Chait: Pilger "defend[s] Vladimir Putin on the grounds that he stands opposed to the United States, which is the font of all evil" as a comical "attempt to cast land-grabbing, ultranationalist dictator Vladimir Putin as an enemy of fascism." Other journalists have been even more scathing about his biased, hyperbolic rhetoric against American government. I'd take this article with a very big grain of salt.
 

Stan B (123)
Thursday October 20, 2016, 9:09 pm
We are living in very dangerous times and the prospect of either Clinton or Trump being elected as President of the U.S. fills me with fear.
 

Margie FOURIE (148)
Friday October 21, 2016, 12:38 am
Quite agree.
 

Stan B (123)
Friday October 21, 2016, 1:00 am
Good to see you back on Care 2 Ros. I'm not here all that often myself but felt Dandelion's post needed to be supported.
As usual, you make some very important and valid points.
The whole world is under threat whichever of these two clowns is elected.
Like many others I worry about my kids and grandkids.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday October 21, 2016, 1:25 am
Agree with Stan and Ros, and thank Evelyn for the YouTube footage, which I'll watch after my weekend away.

We require positive healthy engagement in our world, and NOT the kind of divisive, combative politics that both Trump and Clinton predicate.
 

Maria Papastamatiou (4)
Friday October 21, 2016, 3:47 am
Thanks a lot for postimg. From what I read, there arestill some who will go for the core of matters and not just appearances and clichees.
 

. (0)
Friday October 21, 2016, 6:30 am
TYFS Dandelion. My understanding Donald is kicking the board. He is saying many things (among many absurdities) that are true. That, becomes nervous to the pseudo American democracy.
 

lisa O (6)
Friday October 21, 2016, 6:34 am
Interesting, thought provoking and 7 months old. Comments are helpful since the article is so negative. Not voting for either of them this time around. America is power hungry and only those who embody that make the ballot. Soooooo sad.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday October 21, 2016, 6:40 am
Ros, you say "Bernie should of ran as an Independent"

But had he done so, he wouldn't have had a fraction of the (minimal) coverage that he did have. Because the entire system is rigged against those NOT in the 2 parties. He might have done a little better than Johnson - but he would never have been in a position to run those huge meetings across the country without the Democratic Party network structures.

Should he decide to run as an Independent in 2020 ... it will be a very different playing field, for he is far better known now, and wouldn't need the same aid in access ...

Once he started to get visibility (less restricted at first, because the DNC did not in any way anticipate the waves of support he triggered - they needed a "token" opposition NOT a major challenge!), had he been in a position to break away and shift to independent, he could have been in a position to muster a lead in the actual elections.

But we don't know the details of the agreement he entered with the DNC, although clearly this covered his remaining with the Party until after November ... and accepting the selection made by the Convention - actively supporting thereafter. And Bernie isn't the kind of person who backs down on agreements he makes. Even though the DNC were FAR from respecting their side of the agreement to the letter and the spirit - rigging coverage, voting etc etc.
 

Lloyd H (46)
Friday October 21, 2016, 10:00 am
Well, well John Pilger, the Bright Bart of the far left. And just like the far right just as adept at using half-truths, coincidences and even better than James O'Keefe at producing studio quality propaganda.
 

Lenore K (0)
Friday October 21, 2016, 12:17 pm
ok
 

Joy M (167)
Friday October 21, 2016, 12:50 pm
All I can say is "Thank goodness I don't have to vote, we have our share of them here.. Noted..
 

Janet B (0)
Friday October 21, 2016, 2:26 pm
Thanks
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 21, 2016, 2:43 pm
"..even came across one person saying as much as I loath Hillary I am going to vote for her because Bernie asked us too. (sic)"
But I bet there are millions who will NOT follow and will instead vote Jill Stein. What I'd like to see would be a tough battle for HRC in NY, his home state as much as hers, actually more so, and given the 100.000 purged votes in the primary and the rigged outcome. She will depend on all the millanials who might well turn their back on her and either vote 3rd or stay home if once again she's already being declared winner.

It would be a fair pay back for the unfair deal in CA, where, with the AP's help, many stayed home, being told she ALREADY won. Not to mention the fraud in CA primaries as well.
It ain't over until it's over.

As for Bernie, I am rather convinced he got seriously threatened by the Dem leadership. There are leaked emails revealing HRC's campaign leaders suggesting that anyone-though not mentioning Bernie in that specific case- "not falling in line will be declared an enemy of the state, an enemy of America".
That mirrors the Bush doctrine 'who's not with us is against us'.
And of course, a bunch of leaked emails conspiring how to outmanouvre him.
Only later Bernie was brainwashed with the fear of and compelled to join the fight against Trump.
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Friday October 21, 2016, 3:00 pm
Although I mostly agree with Angelika's above comment, I have a couple millenials still living here at home, and all 3 are very angry at how the Dems/Clinton cheated Bernie. They read about and know what happened in CA and other states; and they are also big followers on social media. And, they are leaning towards Trump.
I am doing my best to sway them to Jill Stein. But, they are adamantly against Clinton, as are most all of their friends.
So, Clinton and the Dem party did not do themselves any favors in their elimination of Bernie. In fact, that just may lose her the election. Oh, what a tangled web that was woven!
 

Donna G (42)
Friday October 21, 2016, 3:30 pm
Lois, there are a lot of people who are planning on voting for Trump. Many of these people used to be Bernie supporters. I would guess that a good percentage of those who will vote for Trump are only doing so because they don't want Clinton to win. But, I can't bring myself to vote for the corporate candidates. Jill Stein has been traveling around the country on what would be considered a shoestring budget. She is not funded by corporations. Even if she does not win, I will feel good about my vote for her.

If Jill Stein can get 5% of the votes, then the Green Party Presidential candidate would qualify for federal funding in 2020. If she gets 15% of the vote, then the Green Party Presidential candidate would be eligible to be in the Presidential debates in 2020.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday October 21, 2016, 3:32 pm
Lois - New York is one of the states where DT has little hope, if the polls are any guide ...

He's running 22% behind HC; with 15% divided between 3rd party and undecided.
NO WAY is voting 3rd Party/ Jill Stein going to give him the lead in NY, so it's a good place to muster a maximum of 3rd Party (well, I'd like to see them all voting Jill Stein!!!) ... But if HC could be brought down ... even if she scraped a win over Jill - what a painful message she'd get!!

New York (29)
HRC 53%
Johnson 6%
Stein 5%
Other 5%
DT 31%
Average of 2 Polls*
As of 10/19/2016
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Friday October 21, 2016, 3:56 pm
Thanks for the additional info, Donna, will also let my kids know this. And, also thanks Evelyn for that info...although I don't live in NY. But, we here in AZ are now supposedly a "battleground state."
We have 2 propositions that will bring millenials to the voting booth: one on cannabis, similar to what they have in CO, CA and a couple other states (we already have MMJ), and one to boost the minimum wage to $15 an hour that the Chamber of Commerce and big business interests are funding against.
 

Tom P (29)
Friday October 21, 2016, 4:39 pm
DONALD TRUMP????? I'm laughing too hard to comment.
 

Freya H (345)
Friday October 21, 2016, 4:47 pm
I can't stand either of these creeps, and I simply CANNOT vote for either one. Yeah, yeah: the chorus howls "Hold your nose and vote for Clinton!" "A vote for Jill Stein (or some other third-party candidate) is a vote for Trump!" I've had it up to my pituitary gland with Rethuglicans and Democraps alike. Where's Bernie Sanders?
 

jan b (5)
Friday October 21, 2016, 5:09 pm
HAVE a mother, sister, wife, female friend----or a disabled kin----TRUMP makes FUN OF YOU and as president he'll have an OPEN MIKE ---all the publicity he wants---- He made fun of a disabled reporter....he has verbally abused women and physically as well. This CREEP is no role model for kids or even 20 year olds. He brings out the most violent people as fans---people you don't want to know.

Just one day after Donald Trump tried to incite his supporters to violence against his opponent Hillary Clinton if she defeats him in the election, it turns out this isn’t the first time Trump has done something like this toward a woman who got under his skin. MSNBC reporter Katy Tur, who has spent more than a year traveling with the Trump campaign, revealed today that the Secret Service had to protect her from Trump’s crowd after he attempted to incite them against her.

While Tur was covering a Trump rally in Mount Pleasant, he took his longtime grudge with her public. He didn’t approve of how she had covered an earlier incident, so he privately demanded that she apologize, which she refused to do. So Trump retaliated by pointing to Tur and saying to the crowd. “What a lie. Katy Tur. What a lie it was. Third. Rate. Reporter. Remember that.”



 

jan b (5)
Friday October 21, 2016, 5:22 pm
Too many Americans are really dumb...stupid...idiots. :The PROVEN accusations against Trump are either denied as true cause he says so.... or ignored. The UNPROVEN accusations around for decades about Hillary are used as a weapon to hate her just because she's a woman treading where only MEN have been allowed in these United States. Other countries have NO PROBLEM with women leaders 80 of them by the way. .

If you are one of those people who are trying to do some good in the world especially for children who don't have a voice and women that Hillary has made her career in caring for FORGET IT---not in the USA ---these Christians will crucify you put you on a cross and nail you to it......But if you are a rotten piece of flesh like Donald Trump----who goes bankrupt leaving 3500 people unpaid while he protects himself---via accountants and lawyers---and we all pay his taxes so he has FREE security--free fire-protection for his property ---and he doesn't support the millitary or veterans with taxes and wants to be their commander in chief.... HE is a sexual predator but yet --that doesn't bother some WOMEN at all .... ..He's no gentleman---you can tell by what he says. He's a PIG. --he's a louse---he's a low-life.... He'll end up in hell.....
 

JL A (281)
Friday October 21, 2016, 5:28 pm
those who value war first and everything else second are no friend of any sector of the public and citizenry--we lose whichever major party candidate wins...I have more hope of Congress stopping Trump absurdities than I do Congress stopping Clinton from failed neocon policies. Good discussion all.
 

Margie FOURIE (148)
Friday October 21, 2016, 10:07 pm
Thank you
 

Lucy S (46)
Friday October 21, 2016, 10:58 pm
Noted! Thanks for the post.
 

Anne Haarhoff (52)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 12:19 am
Thank you, Dandelion, as always for something thought provoking and arresting. The silent third world war, silent and not so silent.

 

Ken O (55)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 2:53 am
Very thought provoking but, I'm sorry to say, much too late and much too cerebral for the American populace as a whole. Maybe 10% of Americans can even understand the issues much less make an intelligent choice on them. If they could we would be looking at Bernie Sanders vs Trump rather than Clinton or Bernie vs someone much more qualified than Trump. We have been screwed since the end of WWII when we absorbed the entire SS as well as the Gestapo into our midst (as well as 51% of the Nazi rocket scientists). Add to that the slow boil of the corporate sector taking control of our government, which is nearly complete and you have where we are today. Not much hope in my book. The is not the United States of America I was born into.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 3:13 am
*************************************************************************** Ken!

Lois - don't know why I thought you'd mentioned NY!

Here's AZ
Clinton 41%
Johnson 7%
Undecided 10%
Trump 40%
Average of 6 Polls*
As of 10/19/2016
All Arizona Polls

So voting for a 3rd party is risky, liable to favour Trump. Highly unlikely to draw from DT's supporters, only from HC's.
:>(
Tough decision - but if they hate HC so much, 3rd party voting has the same effect as voting for Trump but can send a message - and without giving any chance of a win, it could help open up the Presidential Debates in 2020
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 3:20 am
That 'IF-future scenario' described by Donna at the end of her comment has been discussed here during 2012 campaign and-I guess, as I hadn't joined C2 in 2008 yet-also in previous election cyles.

Looking back now, it SHOULD be reason enough for the MASSES to finally work toward that goal! Just think how much further Jill Stein could already be, had more folks payed attention !!
Americans MUST develop a sense for politics and abandon their indifference for anything beyond sports and entertaiment.
We here in Germy. been there, done it. It took our Greens also a few years to jump the threshold of 5% and get a foot in parliaments, first state level, then shortly after, federal and eventually got into the Bundestag and become part of govt.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 3:30 am
I'll add ******* here to Ken, agree 100% with that!
It SHOWS in many ways, just one being their ongoing support for the failed state of Ukraine where today a formally declared Nazi Party has been established. Yet, the IMF, Nuland+ Biden still stand by and support Porochenko and his corrupt club...
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 3:55 am
I can't resist adding Tj H's "quote for the day"

"The penalty good people pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by people worse than themselves."

- Plato, Greek philosopher.

Ranks along with the Lincoln quote cites on the pm system a couple of weeks ago:

"What kills a skunk is the publicity it gives itself."

- Abraham Lincoln, former U.S. President.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 5:22 am
Ros - I'm not sure that the people of Bikini would agree that the bomb has only been used on a country in War!

But that Chomsky quote is so accurate! *********************************************************************** for reminding us of it again!
 

Donna G (42)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 10:35 am
Lois, there is one more thing I learned from an endorsement email I got from Medea Benjamin, who is one of the co-founders of Code Pink. If Jill Stein gets 5% of the vote in the general election, the Green Party will also automatically qualify for ballot access in all states. So, the Green Party will not have to spend so much travelling around the country to get signatures. In Washington state, Jill only needed 1000 signatures; but, other states required 10 times that, or more. So much money has to be spent in the court system trying to get ballot access, it's not funny. I used to donate to Bernie's campaign; but, now I donate to Jill's.

My vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the greater good, for peace, for human rights, and for the planet.
 

Donna G (42)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 10:57 am
I wish I could edit my post to add in a link; but, since I can't, I will just have to make another post. Cenk Yugur of The Young Turks hosted a town hall with Jill Stein. It was streamed live at 3 PM Pacific time and I missed it; because I just forgot. But, it is available for viewing on The Young Turks YouTube channel. If you have not watched it, I encourage everybody who is interested in learning about Jill to watch it: https://youtu.be/TWnX-sVdego
 

JL A (281)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 1:12 pm
Yes, especially if not in an undecided state vote, voting Green will support presence on the ballot and access to public campaign financing when 5% or more. Thanks for that reminder Donna. The only positive voting choice is towards viability of third parties that are not corporatist.
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 2:20 pm
Thanks for the revised info, Evelyn.
Yeah, it's pretty tight here in AZ. Bernie was here last week in Tucson at the UofA Mall....."thousands" were there. And, the next day, Chelsea Clinton was up in Tempe at ASU for a rally. Michelle Obama was in Phoenix the next day. So, the Clinton campaign is pushing hard. But, there is no way my kids (or the majority of their friends, as I understand), will vote for Clinton. They are adamant. (These Millenials are mid-20's to mid-30's, BTW). That is why they plan to vote for Trump. I am working my best to talk them out of that, at least, by voting for Dr. Stein.

And, Donna, thanks for the link. I will definitely mention it to the 'kids.' They are pretty savvy and often tell me about websites and info, and are involved in social media and the online gaming community. I am hoping they will spread the word to their friends.
 

JL A (281)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 2:38 pm
Another concern area for both of the major party candidates:

Why We Should Be Concerned When Clinton Says Muslims Are on the 'Front Lines' of the War on Terror
While all eyes are on Trump's open bigotry, the White House is advancing a "Countering Violent Extremism" plan that threatens the civil rights of Muslims.
http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/why-we-should-be-concerned-when-clinton-says-muslims-are-front-lines-war-terror?akid=14803.953895.iN9AaH&rd=1&src=newsletter1065832&t=18
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 3:25 pm
Following a link provided by Jim Phillips (2016 Presidential Election Polls),I realised that different States face very different scenarios in terms of whether a Third Party vote is in Trump's interests or not!

In Utah and Alaska - neither Clinton nor Trump has a lead that couldn't be swung to a third party: McMullin is in fact doing better than Clinton & is not far behind DT in Utah (as at 20 Oct) - and running close to Clinton in Alaska. Sadly, Stein is not mustering a significant share of Third Party support in either.

In some States, Clinton has a significant lead: voting for Jill Stein or another Third Party candidate won't push DT into the lead. Voting for a Third Party therefore can help Third Parties find a place in official coverage in 2020.
New Hampshire (4)
New York (29)
Vermont (3)
Wisconsin (10)
Colorado (9)
Massachusetts (11)
Michigan (16)
New Mexico (5)
Oregon (7)
Virginia (13)
California (55)
Maryland (10)
Rhode Island (4)
Washington (12)
Illinois (20)
Delaware (3)
New Jersey (14)
Connecticut (7)
Hawaii (4)

There are those States where DT's lead equally means that voting for a Third Party is highly unlikely to change the result - but (as in the previous case) voting for a Third Party could well open the doors for more democratic involvement in 2020.
Missouri (10)
Idaho (4)
Kansas (6)
Louisiana (8)
Montana (3)
Tennessee (11)
Nebraska (5)
Arkansas (6)
Wyoming (3)
North Dakota (3)
Oklahoma (7)
Kentucky (8)
South Dakota (3)
West Virginia (5)

THE ONLY STATES WHERE VOTING "THIRD PARTY" COULD WELL BE THE SAME AS VOTING FOR TRUMP ARE:
New Hampshire (4)
New York (29)
Vermont (3)
Wisconsin (10)
Colorado (9)
Massachusetts (11)
Michigan (16)
New Mexico (5)
Oregon (7)
Virginia (13)
California (55)
Maryland (10)
Rhode Island (4)
Washington (12)
Illinois (20)
Delaware (3)
New Jersey (14)
Connecticut (7)
Hawaii (4)

These are the States where voters who do not want DT at any price do need to think twice before choosing to vote Third Party ...
However, those who cannot bear to vote for HC although they don't want DT either
And those who would rather vote DT than HC ...
A Third Party vote is a vote for the future ... 2020 opportunities for a broader coverage of candidates.
 

Sheila D (28)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 4:30 pm
Whether I agree with this article, or not, I just can't bring myself to vote for Trump or Johnson or the Green Party. As has been noted on numerous occasions; we have a choice between a traditional politician or a racist narcissistic sociopath who cares NOTHING for our values as a country, lies repeatedly and without conscious, and has mentioned his disdain for the people of our country and it's people on numerous occasions over the last 30 years.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 6:26 pm
With HRC at the helm you may not have to worry about any 2020 election...with a world war going on.
Sorry, but I can't stress that enough.
http://worldbeyondwar.org/dennis-kucinich-war-peace/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qPtHYC6jYE
 

JL A (281)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 7:15 pm
Angie may be alluding to the possibility of martial law if we are at war--which is pretty scary. A discussion of the constitutional principles and court decisions can be found at:
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html
 

Janet B (0)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 8:06 pm
Thanks
 

Dianne D (490)
Saturday October 22, 2016, 9:37 pm
I don't trust other people's opinions of the facts and go to http://www.politifact.com/ for the truth. All the news channels use this website and so should those who really want to know what's going on. Most Republicans repeat the same reasons on why they don't like Hillary, but when you ask them for reasons, they can't tell you any reasons. They call her a crook because their party tells them too, but can't five any facts.
 

Roger G (148)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 2:22 am
noted, thanks
 

Marija Mohoric (25)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 7:15 am
very interesting...
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 11:46 am
Thanks all. I'm in agreement with Angelika after Sheila's comment, I think Hillary and Trump are both cut from a similar cloth, being a career politician (not sure how traditional she is) or his never been in politics doesn't change the fact that both are not suitable to be holding the White House - my feelings on the matter.

Anyone with any caliber, integrity, and good policy decisions should not be having such a close race with the likes of Trump - think about it. If we had any qualified Candidate at all with any integrity to them they'd be sailing the currents of victory here.

As for Rhonda's direct comment to me, "Dandelion, I expected better from you. Do you want crazy Trump to be elected, because you are doing exactly what he wants!"

No, not what I want, in fact what I want is Jill Stein, and before that Bernie Sanders, and before them both it was Rocky Anderson - so I normally don't get what I want, have not gotten what I want since voting for George McGovern and Nixon was elected. Now looking back he was a sweetheart compared to what we have running in BOTH the Democrat and Republican Party.

Some of us are just down the road a bit further or we are taking in the Big Picture on the matter, or as Ken said, only 10% seem to understand. I just have done a lot of reading a lot of studying, I don't say I'm perfect, but what I can say, is protecting the system that is destroying our environment, keeping us in ongoing wars, and has created the inequality seen is not something I want to protect or vote for. Bernie wasn't perfect but he was certainly on the correct track and I see Dr. Jill Stein the same way, and in fact she is even a bit more due to her insight of foreign relations.

" Jill Stein.....in it for herself only, and an ant -vaxxer to boot."

Again, when the main Parties begin to feel like there is a threat to them, the smear campaign turns out or perhaps you watch John Oliver that once more took a "lie' and passed it forward concerning the anti vax. I'd really wish people would do their homework on that before dropping it onto the threads, this has been debunked and addressed LOTS of times - by Dr. Jill Stein herself. She is after all a Dr. so please, look it up, I've already spent too much time on this on other threads and in other places.

As for in it for herself. Well I know not of anyone that would give up their spot on a ticket as President to step down and say, here Bernie Sanders, you can take my spot, after he stopped running for President with the Democrat Party. She BELIEVES in helping this Country so much, that she graciously presented this offer in order to keep the MOVEMENT going. Far from being in it for herself that one action alone speaks to lots of people. Perhaps you did not know that - now you do.

"It's not my country, but Trump poses a high risk for the entire world's safety , so I will add my views to this debate to set the record straight."

Well he certainly is a poor choice for President on the Republican side, I grant you that, but from all of the Foreign Relations experts I've read and listened to, most all of them agree, Hillary Clinton poses a far more danger to the rest of the world than Trump. I'd not feel very relieved if she won, whether you live in the US or outside of the USA. Again, I suggest people do a lot more reading, a lot more studying, and don't just be led by the crowd........most of whom are more then willing to keep this two Party disaster going.

The MAJORITY of the people of the USA do not like either Trump or Hillary; unfortunately the USA will end up with one of the two.

That should tell people something. If MOST the people do not like nor want either of them - then there is an obvious problem here.

Hello............and thanks Ken - straight and and to the point.

All I can say, is no matter who wins PAY ATTENTION and don't be a fence sitter or make excuses for them simply because they are the Party of your choice. Stop supporting Party and LOOK at what the elected DO!
Then become ACTIVE if they are not doing as you want - speak up! Stand up! By golly don't wait until the friggin missiles are launched or the sea level is washing away NYC and Miami.
 

JL A (281)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 12:14 pm
What our allies believe of Clinton:
Prospect of US Arm Shipments to Ukraine After Elections Prompts Restarting of Peace Negotiations

The Europeans tried to restart the process for implementing the deal because they believe Clinton is likely to send weapons to the Kiev government if she becomes the next president, says former CIA analyst Ray McGovern
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=17486#newsletter1
 

Janet B (0)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 12:22 pm
Thanks
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 12:38 pm
As I indicated earlier - there are only 19 States in which the fear-mongering "a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump" could be true. (or a vote for any 3rd Party candidate).

I wish that all Bernie supporters WOULD recognise that Jill Stein proposes close to Bernie's platform, and would vote for her. And if only others who are undecided, or who currently lean to other Third Party candidates would opt to support her, too. Because that could swing the balance massively.

But, realistically - I don't see it happening. To a great extent, those who support Jill Stein are those who have made an effort to find out more about what she stands for - not necessarily converted straight away, but willing to make an effort to learn about who she is, what she proposes. Her supporters have been, and are, trying to make more people aware of her ... and the wave of interest has been sufficient to trigger the lies & misinformation that are now being spread (mainly by DNC supporters).

But EVEN IF Stein has little hope of capturing the 270 necessary ... these elections COULD break the two party monopoly in the future (unless Angie's scenario of war preventing the next Presidential elections develops).

But for that - one needs to dismiss the myth of "a vote for Stein/ Third Party is a vote for Trump" in ALL the states where polls indicate a significant lead by either HC or DT. And one needs to mobilise those who are saying "I want neither DT nor HC, so I'm not voting" - to come out for Stein or at least for a Third Party: after all, if they intend to throw away their vote, let them do it "constructively"!!

As I pointed out - there are only 19 States, named above, where DT could take the lead if people choose a 3rd party candidate rather than HC. There, the Clinton rallying cry has truth in it.
BUT - there are also ex-Bernie supporters who have turned to DT rather than HC! So he too could lose votes if people decide to vote outside the "TWO" candidates!
And there are also the "I won't vote for either; so I won't vote" group who could use their voice constructively ... perhaps not for immediate effect, but as a forward-looking strategy.

AND - load Congress with people who listen to The People ... who care about the issues that people in the US are facing. NOT those who serve the corporations & the banks, & those who have interests in the Military Industrial complex ... If enough are elected, neither HC nor DT would find it so easy to play the hawkish line ...
 

JL A (281)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 1:59 pm
Here is what Bernie says is tolerable about a Clinton win:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-makes-powerful-case-continuing-revolution-under-clinton-administration

Note--he understands the platform is the Party's and not Clinton's and thus a vehicle to get Congress to act and her party to push Clinton to sign instead of veto...the main plus I've ever heard to her being in office. Evelyn seems right about all the reasons to vote 3rd party in the other 30+ states and territories.
 

Angelika R (143)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 2:59 pm
Aside from all the voices of reason here, take it from the Nation of Change, there's a pretty complete run down list offered:
http://www.nationofchange.org/2016/10/23/progressives-case-hillary-clinton/
 

Angelika R (143)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 3:36 pm
Take to heart that last para there:

"The only reason that liberals could vote for Hillary Clinton is fear of Donald Trump. However, this is the kind of logic that prevents any true progressive leader from ever winning. The only way to get a true progressive and a moral representative of the 99% … is to not vote for Hillary Clinton. Vote for Jill Stein or write in Bernie Sanders. This is the year to send a clear message that a corrupt puppet backed by $1 billion of special interests’ money cannot buy this election. This is the year to prevent major global wars that are guaranteed to happen under Madam President Hillary Clinton."
 

Janet R (38)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 4:05 pm
I voted for Hillary and I am proud that I did it.

And, Angelika, I am flaming liberal and I voted for Hillary because she has more experience in 1 fingernail than all of the others do combined in their entire body. But, none of them will have any success if we don't rid ourselves of the obstructionist Republicans in Congress. I'm tired of the double standard between Hillary and Trump. No one says anything about the Trump Foundation but we better call in the FBI over the Clinton Foundation.

If Hillary is good enough for Bernie Sanders, she damn well should be good enough for the Bernie supporters. Seriously, get your brain out of your butt because if Trump is elected because of your stupidity in voting for Johnson or Stein, America as we know it will cease to exist. It's just that serious.

 

JL A (281)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 4:10 pm
So sorry you didn't read what Bernie had to say (I posted the link above) for a Clinton administration to be tolerable for progressives and liberals Janet.
 

Kate Kenner (215)
Sunday October 23, 2016, 4:24 pm
Sadly I almost always vote for the lesser of two evils. I can not believe there is anyone as dangerous as Donald Trump-maybe Hitler or Idi Amin. Trump puts fear into my heart. When Bush one the first time I was depressed, the sound time I cried but Trump just makes me scared.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 24, 2016, 12:56 am
So far as I know Donald Trump's actions haven't directly or indirectly led to thousands or millions being murdered through a foreign policy of war and exploitation of other countries. Hillary Rodham Clinton's actions and attitude HAVE.

She's also directly manifested aggressive behavior towards Russia, so as to who I would trust in charge of any nuclear arsenal, NEITHER. Both unfit for office, but as the level of conditioning and propaganda has worked a treat for those of you intent on supporting either Trump or Clinton, may their destructive actions wake up your conscience in the future, if there IS ANY FUTURE to look forward to.

Would you run your own household like this?

As for Trump and Clinton, both bad pennies, what is the name of decency inspires any of you to actually vote for them? Because the one is less worse than the other? What about Dr. Jill Stein, who I have to say, after watching her reactions to the Presidential Debates, has FAR MORE OIL IN HER LAMP than most, Janet.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday October 24, 2016, 7:08 am
Thank you Darren very much agree here. I think we also dilute what Hitler did by comparing Trump to him. An excellent point about Hillary Clinton who already has a proven track record of mayhem that seems to be conveniently overlooked by many.

Is Trump a nice man no, but Hitler he isn't. I think the hype around him has been so overblown that people are voting truly on fear and not thinking this through. Both JL A and Evelyn has presented some very good points and logic here, I wish people would read articles more like that, and think through the logic as was presented.

I use to have a few people send me those made up emails, the please pass this along. There might be a bit of truth mixed in there, enough to make it appear that it had some logic, but otherwise it was all blown out of proportion and twisted around. I had to ask those people to stop sending me those, because they were based on soul emotion and targeted people who don't do their homework.

And double standard between Hillary and Trump, well in the beginning when Bernie was running, he was ignored by the press, HIllary was given less time on the media, because as one CEO said, Trump might not of been good for the Country but he is good for them, he made money, people tuned in to his every word. Now the press has turned on him and he is getting hit hard from the mainstream media as well as there is Tom Cat of C2 who posts constantly about Trump and or the Republicans - all their dastardly deeds so I'm not sure where you are by not seeing this.

Build up the Progressives in the House and the Senate and that will be an offset to him. In the meantime, there are people around him to make sure he will not go too far out on the limb. His children seem like an intelligent lot, I'm sure he'll take into consideration their thoughts on things. And you must remember, that the White House always has those telling them what is going to take place. He and she are both puppets for the puppet masters - and THAT is the point. We needed to get someone into the White House that can be speaking for the people and educating them rather than at the people and what the agenda is for the Puppet Masters is going to be.

We've had that for 35+ years, we had a coup on 9-11 that has twisted our military into being used offensive instead of what we were suppose to be used for defense. We are the aggressors now, we are the pillaging ones, we are raping and turning our own Country into a big wasteland of fracking and oil fields, selling the uranium to our supposed enemies and leaving the open mines to poison the people living in the USA. Like where have you been? This has been done under both Republican and Democratic Administrations! Yet I'm suppose to believe that voting for Hillary or Trump is going to fix that. I'll only be supporting that continued plan.

So everyone will vote with what they can live with, or think they'll be living with, I too will do the same, for I can vote for no one other than Dr. Jill Stein at this point. I'll not support either of those two who in this case there is no lesser than evil - we finally by voting that way have truly hit the bottom of the pile in both. Now there is worse, Ted Cruz, and if Hillary gets in and messes up, he is sitting in the wings. Out of the two, Ted Cruz or Donald Trump, I'm glad Trump won the slot.

Neoliberalism has not worked it has pushed us closer to fascism so people who are liberal best notch it up a bit. Just like people claiming they are conservative, this isn't your grandparents game any more -- read. I would start by learning what inverted totalitarianism is, study the prison industrial complex, there are some books on this but Michelle Alexander is a good start. Joseph Eugene Stiglitz is a good economist to learn by and there are others. Branch out, read or listen to Chris Hedges, Abby Martin is doing some spot on videos, and there are others to sink your teeth into.

And vote for Candidates that have our environment in sharp focus, because if we don't have that then the rest will not matter, and no, Hillary is not a good environmentalist no more than Trump is. At least Trump is not supportive of TPP which if passed will really become a disaster. You worry about the nuclear bomb we also have an environmental nightmare rolling out every single day; another reason I pick The Green Party.

Mario Savio said - a liberal
“There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.”

For me - this IS that TIME!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Monday October 24, 2016, 7:12 am
Forgot to add thank Angelika for Sunday October 23, 2016, 2:59 pm
Aside from all the voices of reason here, take it from the Nation of Change, there's a pretty complete run down list offered:
http://www.nationofchange.org/2016/10/23/progressives-case-hillary-clinton/

This should be checked out as well, read, and thought about.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 24, 2016, 8:21 am
Pretty much agree with every single word you've typed Dandelion.

Frank Zappa once said, people don't understand and realize the power they have with the ability to vote; it can CHANGE the BALANCE of power.

Right now, we have masses of imbalance. If some of you can't see that, I'm wondering what kind of propaganda is affecting you.

I also agree that to compare Trump with Hitler is utterly barking bizarre and really does demonstrate complete and utter ignorance of what Hitler and his regime DID, as opposed to what Trump may or may not react to.

Clinton is an accomplished liar, because she's a lawyer, and knows how to wriggle out of situations. Her husband Bill, also a lawyer and accomplished liar and serial philanderer HAD to accept he'd acted sexually inappropriately with AT LEAST Monika Lewinsky, otherwise, Ken Starr would have roasted his butt over coals after he had left office.

Forget reading propagandized bullsh$t from https://www.hillaryclinton.com/. Do you seriously think you'll get balanced perspective from reading her own website.

Check out Noam Chomsky, who has been critical of U.S. Administrations for SIX DECADES, and as Dandelion has mentioned, Abby Martin's Empire Files will give you a good idea of the infiltration by Corporate America into countries rich in resources, with a view of destabilizing them, and then setting up American military camps within them.

Also, just shared that nationofchange link you've kindly posted, Dandelion.
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 24, 2016, 9:30 am
An observation related to fact checking.
One factor influencing more confirmed Trump saying less than true statements vs. Clinton saying less than true statements is his willingness to be interviewed where he doesn't control the questions and content covered vs. her avoiding interviews and press conferences like the plague so she is rarely faced with tough questions she'd prefer not to answer.
Sometimes silence speaks louder than words.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 24, 2016, 11:02 am
Yes. . . it's even been suggested that Clinton had prior knowledge of what questions would be asked during the Presidential Debates. . . .

WHAT IS THE POINT OR NEED / REQUIREMENT to be briefed on questions that might be asked, so you can do your homework beforehand. . . ? This smacks of a person actually being a icon or figurehead for an organization, where they're simply trotted out to "perform" like some kind of circus monkey.

You either KNOW YOUR STUFF, which is why a public would warm to you, like Bernie Sanders, or Dr. Jill Stein, or you come across as streamlined, syrupy, smooth, sophisticated vacuously but executively dressed mannequin, with zero depth (Clinton). Trump would simply HIRE the people he wanted to be in his team.

In Britain, this sort of press/media interview/interrogation avoidance is the reason why Jeremy Corbyn mostly comes across as genuine, and sympathy, empathy and a fair bit of frustration and anger for the plight of everyday people, whereas the "trained" sociopath/psychopath just looks false and every movement and gesticulation is part of the programming.

Based on what I've see, Clinton and Trump wouldn't last 5 minutes on the alternative press/media networks, as they would ask uncomfortable questions that the mainstream press/media dare not ask.
 

Cyn F (137)
Monday October 24, 2016, 11:25 am
Thought-provoking comments...noted with thanks, Dandelion
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 24, 2016, 12:20 pm
JL - excellent point *******************************************************

Darren - I wonder why your comments made me think of Farrage & Johnson? ;>)
But when you say "Trump would simply HIRE the people he wanted to be in his team." ... he doesn't bother, he knows best anyway - in his eyes.

And I don't think the alternative media would bother him any more than the mainstream (who don't give HIM an easy run)!! ... He'd just reply "I'd be GREAT", or "I have GREAT ideas/ plans" - and start insulting HC ... just as he does elsewhere!!

The danger with him is that he doesn't realise all that he DOESN'T know, so he can go off at half fuse because of all that he doesn't grasp. Exceedingly dangerous & unpredictable for a POTUS
And, of course, his values are so hugely distant from those of the "ordinary people" that he can ride roughshod across human values ... Equally dangerous in a head of State.
 

Janet B (0)
Monday October 24, 2016, 12:25 pm
Thanks
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 24, 2016, 12:46 pm
The thing is, politics are NOT made by POTUS. Perhaps give that a bit more thought!
As for the alternet piece: thx Judi..but:

"And if (worst case scenario) our elected leaders don’t follow through?
“Let them know how you feel about it,” Sanders said."

LMAO ! It won't take a 'worst case scenario, it will BE that way. Anyone here seriously thinking she'd give a rat's butt?! The people she WILL care what they feel about her are sitting in Tel Aviv and Riyadh! Plus all her 1 $ bn donors within the US Establisment.
And she will do precisely as she promised them. The US will NOT ever give up their goal f 'Full spectrum dominance'. Sanders cannot change that, as much as he may like to. Then again, he may not even like to change the critical point, having parroted the ridiculous anti-Russian slogans and he's no dove either.

Your political revolution will just have to wait... until you grow tired of waiting. Or until we all cease to exist.
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 24, 2016, 1:39 pm
Understood Angies...Sufficient progressives in Congress to push her is the only hope on domestic issues...other historical allies giving major pressure the only hope on foreign affairs...
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 24, 2016, 2:06 pm
True Judi. only problem currently those 'historic allies' have lost their minds as well! I believe she'd go it alone if need be. And I think it's less those 80% on the platform that matter, but the 20% he/they/you didn't get which matter more.
It's not like I am NOT hoping for the best, don't get me wrong, but hope is running awfully thin...after all those decades... 'Yes we can' - NO you didn't! Now ready to watch part II...
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 24, 2016, 2:44 pm
Here's Part 3 fresh out from this: http://projectveritasaction.com/
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQvsK5w-jY *

Check WH reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O90nNvj1kg
Josh Earnest 'ducking' the answer. .instead blaming project Veritas. Pretty much like the claim WikiLeaks stuff put out is not real, not true. It stinks to high heaven.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 24, 2016, 3:00 pm
Shared both of those links over social media, Angelika.
Will watch tomorrow.
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 24, 2016, 3:56 pm
I hear you Angie--for those hoping for progressive things domestically, they are drinking GOP Koolaid it appears:
How Washington's Money-Machine Stays Ahead of Democracy

Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party have created America's largest network of donors and fundraisers, and together they're delegating Wall Street's favorites to unelected positions within government
"he dismantling of safety measures against corruption has created such a tight knit community among the nation’s elite, Henwood and Fong say, that finding evidence of quid pro quo is impossible because of how seamless the relationship between business and the public sector has become."
"But Hillary Clinton’s ties to industry aren’t by her own doing alone. Since the 1990’s the democratic party’s invited corporate forces into its inner circle. Robert Rubin, a former executive at Citi Group and former board member at Goldman Sachs became a leading architect in shaping Bill Clinton’s Wall Street policies for example. More recently, a WikiLeaks email shows how lasting Citi Group influence has bene on the democratic party.

In an email from then Citi Group executive Michael Froman to John Podesta who was co-chair of Barack Obama’s transition team in 2008, Froman sent Podesta 3 important documents. They were suggestions for cabinet level appointments. The first, a list of candidates of color, the second of women, the third, a suggestion of how to distribute them.

The list of cabinet level positions ended up being mostly correct. For example, it identified Eric Holder for the Justice Department, Robert Gates for Defense, and Timothy Geithner for Department of Treasury, among many others.

HENWOOD: So they were already planning the transition. They were already planning the cabinet, well before the voters even decided who was going to be elected. "
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=17490#newsletter1
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday October 24, 2016, 4:21 pm
I've seen and read those leaked emails, posted some even and I previously hinted to that one showing the full list of 'suggestions' for Obama's cabinet, including the attachments as you mention above!
Am I the ONLY ONE here actually checking out the wikileaks Clinton emails????? What are they being put out for then??..
There's much more to Rubin in particular... but that seems to not interest the masses...
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 24, 2016, 5:07 pm
Angie, mainstream media is still bombarding us with Trump horrors and some are blaming the Russians for Wikileaks and suggesting that somehow invalidates the content from being real, too...sigh...many who normally consume most of the available election news and have always voted are on overload unable to face the possibility that they've been fooled or cannot make a difference towards improving the country in the next few years by their vote.
 

Hartson Doak (39)
Monday October 24, 2016, 10:57 pm
WOW! There is sure a lot of comments on this. I'm voting for Dr Stein.
 

Ken O (55)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 4:18 am
It's pretty clear that most of you don't seem to remember the last time we had a Republican president. Just a reminder, it was a complete and total disaster. Two wars, global economy trashed, two tax cuts for the wealthy. What more do you want?
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 6:02 am
I very much agree with what JL A said in her last comment of Monday Oct. 24, 5:07 and many people already have voted in the early voting so they have cast their decision no matter what they now find out. I also know a lot of people are avoiding the articles that they don't "want to know" having made up their minds to go along with the lesser of two evils again. Some truly do, like Hillary or Trump and nothing is going to convince them to vote otherwise.

I've been doing the best I can to keep up with the emails, haven't posted as much, although I'm still doing a bit on C2. I pretty much see the writing on the wall and have gone on to homeschool my grandchild, saving her from the "conditioning" of the school system. Poor child was crying, having stomach aches, and failing to thrive and survive in there. Now she smiles, no more stomach problems, she laughs a lot and learning is moving in leaps and bounds. At least she is still wanting to learn......whereas too many I'm finding want to stick to the status quo and not learn anymore.

Oh I'm clear Ken what Republican Administrations have done in the, we'll take the fairly recent past Nixon, Reagan and the family of Bush. I'm on even this thread stating that Trump isn't a good selection either but this is a Hillary Clinton thread and when TomCat posts, as he does daily, what terrible things Republicans are doing, I hardly see anyone bringing up how the Democrats have their faux pas as well.

If one is speaking upon wars, you can google to find that both the Democrats and the Republicans seem to be almost equal in who brings us to that place. The Vietnam disaster was brought in under the Democrats the Iraq by the Republicans.

A bit longer writing:
World War II: Franklin D. Roosevelt, Democratic; Asked for declaration of war after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Germany and Italy declared war two days later.

Korean war Harry S. Truman, Democrat; North Korea, in violation of a UN treaty, invaded South Korea. Troops were sent to contain communism.

Vietnam War: Lyndon B. Johnson, Democratic; involvement started after two American gunboats were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin (the reports have now been proven falsified.).

Grenada: Ronald Reagan, Republican; When a Communist government took over the country, it persecuted the American college students studying there.

Panama, Persian Gulf War Operation Restoring Freedom: George H. W. Bush, Republican. Troops were sent to Somalia to assist in the feeding the hungry, after guerrillas shot up UN aid convoys.

Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq: Bill Clinton, Democratic Party; troops were sent to Bosnia to enforce peacekeeping. Yugoslavia was attacked over genocide upon the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. Air assaults on Iraq were ordered after failing to comply with UN weapons inspectors.

Afghanistan and Iraq: George W. Bush, Republican but with broad support by the Democrats

Then there is Libya and although the drone wars started under Bush we have Obama who has escalated this which has involved many Countries. Our proxy wars, Yemen, Syria now under Democrats. So yes, I'm fully aware of what the Republicans do, but I'm also aware of what the Democrats do as well and neither is helping our Country or the broader world at large. Until people start seeing that I'm afraid little changes.

People really do need to climb out from under these two major Parties and vote for actual Candidates not just Party. Most States have alternate Candidates be they running under the Green Party, Peace Party, the Reform Party, start learning about those people, requires a bit of homework, but I'd rather give them the chance than voting in, once again, the person that has sliced your throat.

This should be at all levels and if we have encouraged people to run that don't have the billions or millions to get in the race, then we need by our numbers to support these people, however we can, by social media or standing on the road doing honk and waves, passing out literature on the Candidate. It is going to take people being ACTIVE in their lives and Government instead of being passively accepting.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 6:18 am
Judi, I am quite aware of all that. Those 'some' blaming the Russinans sadly include HRC herself, repeating her lies in 3rd debate, while everyone had the chance to read the original statements from those ' 17 intel /security agencies' clearly speaking of "believed to" while NOT speaking of evidence, since there is none!

Sadly, this means these blind and forgetful crowds will just need to find out once again they've been fooled, as every time before in their history. The tragic part: it affects ALL. Again, as every previous time.

You cannot keep printing bank notes forever and with the budget again going to the Pentagon, what do you expect to be left for 'the American people' ??
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 6:28 am
Indeed Angelika, we have a saying over here, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." So I do blame the Greedy Heartless Ones called the 1% and their Puppets most of those in DC, but share of it is also coming from the people who do not do their part either - shame on them for not learning.

And I agree, if their decisions or lack of action only impacted their own lives, well that would be bad enough, however it is affecting those who are trying hard to not have it happen, it is affecting children who have yet to have a say in the matter, and it is affecting people beyond the borders of the USA who have a lot of the fall out from what is done or not done within the USA.

As you said Angelika "Your political revolution will just have to wait... until you grow tired of waiting. Or until we all cease to exist."
 

JL A (281)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 8:20 am
 Why Is the Foreign Policy Establishment Spoiling for More War? Look at Their Donors.
War is first and foremost a profitable racket.
By Dennis Kucinich
https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-the-foreign-policy-establishment-spoiling-for-more-war-look-at-their-donors/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DAILY_2016_1-_25&utm_term=daily
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 8:35 am
Ken O., hasn't it dawned on you yet, that BOTH parties in your general electoral system are puppets working for the same Corporate Elites?

If you want genuine change, you're going to have to vote in someone who REPRESENTS genuine change, and that means, Dr. Jill Stein.

Under Clinton or Trump, you're going to get more of exactly what we've got now. World tension and aggression in buckets.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 8:38 am
Thank you Judi! That article is much broader than his short piece in Worldbeyondwar which I posted 3 days ago further above.
BTW, The Nation just sent me-I'm sure you and others got it too- John Nichols' donation request- they modestly ask a whoppng ' $ 37 or more' -LOL !
Well, I don't trust them fully 'to inform the nation' and responded by letting them know! ;-)

In fact I told them I MIGHT consider donating IF Katrina vanden Heuvel can bring back her husband Prof Stephen Cohen back to the paper. His only locally aired 'John Batchelor show' is insufficient for the masses and he got banned from MSM for telling the truth as he is THE one and only truly knowledgable expert on Russia.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 8:45 am
Darren, here's one especially for you! I was surprised to read this in The Spectator. While still having some bashing yet he is pretty balanced, worth a read..nicely written as well.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/stop-this-stupid-sabre-rattling-against-russia/
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 9:12 am
Thanks for that Angelika. . . I've shared it over social media with the comment
"Don't believe all American propaganda about Russia. . . "

A young friend of my mothers, who's partner's father IS Russia has observed that a lot of what we here about Russia and Putin in the mainstream Press/Media is basically bullsh$t, American propaganda, which sadly a lot of quite intelligent people in Europe, Britain AND America have accepted as truth.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 10:38 am
All the more reason for the lot of intelligent people in Europe, Britain (interesting how you already count yourselves OUT there ;) ) AND America who've NOT accepted that BS as truth to educate others and spread the truth!
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 10:57 am
It may be time for a lighter note here, still on-topic in a way, though ;-)
For all who've missed, enjoy this hilarious feature of both candidates recently at the Al Smith memorial gala dinner in NY : (at about min 7 DT starts his speech, followed by HRC after a short introduction)

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ryocAv8Zw *
 

Gloria picchetti (304)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 1:02 pm
I voted for Hillary this morning. There is no time to find another candidate besides her. Trump will win if there are not enough Hillary voters. I doubt if there will be anyone nuked. But if the whole world ends I am not going to pay rent any longer. I have no problem with it.
 

Jamie Clemons (282)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 1:18 pm
I won't vote for her because she is a war monger and cheated Bernie sanders.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 1:33 pm
Good articles - thanks JL A & Angie! *************************************
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 2:24 pm
And here's still more of Realpolitik: quite flawed as is to be expected, yet difficult to just ditch or flat out disregard:
Again, the British:
* http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/could-hillary-start-a-world-war-sure-as-hell-she-could-and-here-s-how-a7379051.html *
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 2:27 pm
As I said above-if you need a break from reality don't miss watching the speeches from the Al Smith dinner! :)
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 2:58 pm
I thought the break from reality was in actually watching the Presidential debates, and laughing hysterically at the circus acts of the two apes trying to knock bile out of each other. . .
 

Lenore K (0)
Tuesday October 25, 2016, 4:05 pm
ok
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday October 26, 2016, 2:50 am
I don't want and can't (time wise) join the discussion at this late point in time - just a heartfelt thank you and plenty of stars for the many excellent comments and further links! ********************************

The presidential no-race reminds me very much of the one we had in Egypt in 2012: the choice between the pest and the cholera (Ahmed Shafiq and Moh'd Mursi). Six piece or half a dozen.

Very much like the Dillary Clump or Honald Trinton or Hildo Clump or rather Donary Clump? Whichever way it is, I'm happy once this mis-en-scène charade is over. Once Bernie Sanders gave up (due to whatever) the game became crystal clear to everybody.

The candidate challenging Clinton had to be as ugly as possible ... and very willing to play the game. Play the game if he wins the nomination (which he does), play the game if he wins the Presidency (which is possible) or play the game if he loses. Whichever it is the stage is set for Clump.

What I fail to understand: why are the US as well as the American people so hell bent to export this kind of (non-)democracy to other parts of the world?! They oust well-established dictators put in place by them to start with (because they don't serve the US' purpose anymore) and try to sell people that they bring democracy instead ...

The entire process is not good for my stomach ... follow Angelika's suggestion and watch the Al Smith memorial dinner speeches - like two lame ducks who are a bit tired of playing their screwed up roles.

 

Donna G (42)
Wednesday October 26, 2016, 11:30 am
I have my ballot. I got it over the weekend, so have plenty of time to fill it out. There are so many Clinton supporters on the forums that I follow; and, they can be downright nasty. My son told me that some Clinton supporters fire-bombed a Republican campaign headquarters.

Obama has continued many of Bush's policies. Clinton has promised to do the same. I would prefer to take my chances with a Trump Presidency than with a Clinton one. However, neither party really represents our best interests. I want to share this video from Cr Cecil Bothwell. He gives very reasonable and heartfelt reasons why we should vote for Jill Stein: https://youtu.be/G69GIM0clXs For anybody who has already voted for Clinton in fear of Trump, I'm sorry you felt like you had no choice but to do so. We should always have a choice when it comes to elections.
 

Jordan G (37)
Wednesday October 26, 2016, 12:37 pm
Strange bedfellows.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Wednesday October 26, 2016, 1:11 pm
Bang on the money Donna. I've shared that YouTube footage as well.

There are several here who say that the propaganda against Clinton has been quite successful. I would say the most successful propaganda has been the illusion and delusion that Clinton and Trump are the only candidates that can be voted for, and easily suggestible people, or people who WANT a female President over an arrogant, self-assured male in Donald Trump.

Dr. Jill Stein is easily a better candidate for a healthier future for both America and the rest of the world.
 

TOM TREE (247)
Wednesday October 26, 2016, 1:14 pm
Scary Stuff ! UNBELIEVABLE !!
 

Eric Lees (6)
Thursday October 27, 2016, 10:57 am
Why do so many people continue to support a party long after it has left everything it once stood for? (This goes for both wings of the Oligarchy). Call it ignorance, complacence, partisan blinders. We only have ourselves to blame for the mess.

Both parties are now pro-war interventionists:

"Why Progressives Love the New Cold War
The anti-Russian hysteria coming from the left isn’t surprising"
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2016/10/23/progressives-love-new-cold-war
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday October 27, 2016, 4:15 pm

Yes, we did, Ros ;-). To me this whole US system is foreign. In Switzerland one is automatically eligible to vote at the age of 18 provided one is not registered as mentally handicapped or has a custodian (but it depends for what reason) and for sure nobody has to register a Party preference nor do we have such crap as delegates and super delegates. I wonder that there are no VIP delegates ...?!

It's as you say: a secret ballot, a voting ID, a pen (or computer for those cantons who have already internet voting) and off you go. One might call it democracy ... LOL!!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday October 27, 2016, 4:38 pm

Oh Ros - I just realize that you probably thought of my country of residence which is Egypt! Here the voting "system" is ever changing although it stays the same at the surface - LOL. During Mubarak's time there was an all time lowest participation in 2005 of roughly 3 % (in words: three) because people knew it's a waste of time. The regime used to shuttle the government employees by the bus load from one polling station to the next and they filled out the ballots. Often they didn't even bother and there are videos of polling station employees filling out stacks of ballots. But still the international observers labeled them as acceptable fair ... I dare say after checking their paycheck!

In 2012 when they had the choice between the pest and the cholera (who were in the first round at the absolute bottom and suddenly were the only two left) ... there were plenty of boxes found (in fields and storage rooms) with votes for Hamdeen Sabahi, a liberal (and economist) who should have won going by people's polls. But we've been down that road before.

Today ... well today we don't know as the noose has been extremely tightened and nobody dares to make a forecast. El Sissi won by a landslide (there was no serious contender anyway) and what will happen during the next elections is up for guess work and speculation.
 

JL A (281)
Thursday October 27, 2016, 5:48 pm
My history books led me to expect it to be as simple as how you say it is in Switzerland Eleonora...the longer I'm registered to vote the more complicated it all seemed to get...
 

Eric Lees (6)
Friday October 28, 2016, 7:59 am
Is War with Russia the goal?
"Clinton’s “No-Fly Zone” over Syria Will Not “Save Lives”. It Will Lead to War with Russia. Warning of JCS Chairman General Dunford"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/clintons-no-fly-zone-over-syria-will-not-save-lives-it-will-lead-to-war-with-russia-warning-of-jcs-chairman-general-dunford/5552480
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 28, 2016, 10:22 am
The web is FULL of news of what Eric posted above, that's not new at all and by now every voter SHOULD be aware of it!
From Salon to Wash.'s lead MSM all reportet on it. Even German language media!
http://www.salon.com/2016/10/21/hillary-clinton-admitted-in-2013-that-a-no-fly-zone-would-kill-a-lot-of-syrians-but-still-wants-one/
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 28, 2016, 10:27 am
Judi, add to tthat the more useless, given your own primaries experiencein CA!

I kind of like Eleonora's stated Egypt experience with 3% ! :-) that's what the Nov. 8, 2016 turnout SHOULD BE, given the choice they're left with..and all of those 3% voting for Jill, not Hill - wouldn't that do the trick!? :-)
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday October 28, 2016, 2:46 pm
Speaking of election system, in case anyone is interested to read the findings of the OSCE, their report is here:
United States of America, General Elections, 8 November 2016: Interim Report
Publisher Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe Date 26 October 2016

http://www.osce.org/odihr/277321 >> http://www.osce.org/odihr/277321?download=true
clear conclusion: NOT meeting international standards in many points. Talk about a banana republic....
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 12:14 am

Angelika - I love your dream and join in; that would be just great!! Especially after having seen such disgusting stuff early morning ... ... is campaigning for his ex-rival truly the most pressing item on the agenda of “the most powerful person on earth”??????.

 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 5:09 am
Donna thank you for the video you left in your comment of Wednesday October 26, 2016, 11:30 am. He speaks very close to how I feel on many points. I only wish Gloria had seen she truly did have another choice; in fact if Jill Stein wasn't on the ballot I would do as Cr Cecil Bothwell mentioned, and stayed home.

I am a HUGE believer in voting and have voted in every single election since being old enough so I do not say that lightly, I would stay home. But as he said, I will not own either a Trump or Clinton seat in the White House, I will not place my mark on that ballot to help them there. I may not be able to prevent one of them from being there but I'll not help them into the White House.

Thanks all again for this thread, sorry I've not be back to it quickly, but as I've said in other places I'm now homeschooling and I take that also very serious. My granddaughter will go with me while I vote, she has done so every year of her life since age 3. I instill in her that right to vote is important, I just hope by the time she can exercise that there are far better candidates running in the two main parties or maybe they'll be more parties to choose from which would be wonderful. But if we don't support those new parties we will never have them - so I will vote Green.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 5:46 am
"But if we don't support those new parties we will never have them - so I will vote Green. "
REPEAT after her.
But if we don't support those new parties we will never have them - so I will vote Green.
But if we don't support those new parties we will never have them - so I will vote Green.
But if we don't support those new parties we will never have them - so I will vote Green. ...etc

and I sure am speaking from first hand experience over here! You're doomed if you stick with the ONE corporatist party masquerading as two.

 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 9:58 am
At this point, I am definitely convinced that the best thing in these November elections is to keep one's eye on the democracy of the future.

Voting for HRC or for DT is a "look over my shoulder" backwards perspective ...
Accepting a "tow party" mastodon (which, yes, is just 2 angles of one political outlook now).

BUT voting outside that self-destructive so-called "democracy" corporacratic model IS a vote for a future more-open democracy.

YES; "if we don't support those new parties we will never have them"

VOTE in 2016 - for CHOICE in 2020.
 

JL A (281)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 10:01 am
All set to mail my ballot...let us see whether it'll show as counted this time.
 

Lenore K (0)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 12:45 pm
ok
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 3:23 pm
The Clinton camp being silent over the Dakota Access Pipeline (WHO IS BEHIND THE FINANCING. . . .), and the fact that a petition has had to be created to APPEAL to the Clinton Camp to support the Dakato Access Pipeline veto, should TELL everyone in favor of decency, that Clinton IS AN ABSOLUTE NO GO for Presidency.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 3:40 pm
Well Darren, we all remember her role in the KXL and her investment in TransCanada, don't we... so what to expect... She only turned around later, very late, not to embarrass John Kerry after the DoS and later Obama himself made the U-turn.

Judi-better luck to you this time around! Fortunately CA is NOT one of the 13 states that explicitly prohibit international election monitoring at poll stations on election day, which is incredible in itself!
But mail ballots is still another story anyway.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 4:32 pm

In light of the latest "discovery" - her emails among the sextexts of Weiner - I just have one question: IF someone under FBI investigation would apply for a job ... say at McDonalds or Walmart ... would that person even be considered leave alone get the job?

Yeah - the White House seems not to be that important ... or what is it?!
 

Danny N (2)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 5:41 pm
Talk about fuzzy logic, I am gobsmacked.
I have to totally erase all of the years of high school and college history and things learned in many years in the US Army and come to the realization that like the great champion of liberty Iran has stated, the United States is the "Great Satan". If this is true then both presidential candidates are the devils disciples. One having more points than the other depending on your viewpoint.

People get real, I doubt there two presidents in history who have ever done what they said they were going to do for any number of reasons.




 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday October 29, 2016, 6:10 pm
Eleonora, it is THIS : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cv2DzzsUEAA0BhV.jpg
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 12:45 am
It's about time you got real, Danny.

Eleonora. . . your point is obviously utterly, well taken.

Under normal circumstances, say, applying to join the Civil Service, Police Force, a bank (I know, I know!), if there was ANYTHING on your record, or ANYTHING in the press/media, they wouldn't even consider you, as you would be bad for their image.

Just demonstrates the utterly laughable circus of democracy that is supposed to be in operation, and MORE tellingly, the number of people who are deluded by it.
 

Ken O (55)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 3:05 am
Hmm. I'm not believing some of the comments here. It seems that the incredibly destructive Bush administrations deplorable actions in lying to congress to get them to agree to going to war against Afghanistan (when, according to the "official" "story" the planning and execution of 9/11 were all Saudi's), then Iraq and we're still there in the longest "war" America has ever started is to be compared to WWII having been "started" by a Democrat? Wow, just wow. And we're to believe that voting for Jill Stein (apparently as a protest vote against the two horrid traditional American parties) is preferable to voting for Hillary (aka, Crooked Hillary)? Voting for Trump even is better than voting for Hillary when Trump has absolutely no other credential than he's completely ignorant about maneuvering in world politics. Amazing. This proves George Carlin's axiom that "Think how stupid the average person is, then think that half of them are stupider than that." Look, I'll agree that the "two party" system is flawed but because it is that's no reason to waste your vote (even in protest) on a person, however qualified (actually that would have been Bernie) nor to vote for an imbecile like Trump. We've already had one imbecile in the oval office who immediately turned over the running of the country to Dick Cheney, destroyed our economy and brought the worlds economy to it's knees all based on lies stemming from the false flag operation we have been sold as 9/11. It's just astounding.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 9:51 am
Voting for Dr. Jill Stein ISN'T a protest vote; where in heaven or hell did you get that idea from?

You vote for Hillary Clinton you get a lying lawyer who is currently ACTIVELY taunting Russia and Vladimir Putin.

Like we NEED MORE aggression and WAR within the world. Which planet of reality are you living on?

Donald Trump has the kind of tempestuous maverick character that, whilst it looks like he CANNOT BE CONTROLLED by the elites, Wall Street AND Corporate Oligarchs (actually because HE simply wants to take over the whole lot of them), what would it take for him to suddenly declare WAR on a country, where the leader didn't stroke his delicate vain egoism?

Voting for Dr. Jill Stein IS A VOTE for a decent, level headed, greater BALANCED individual who has the INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE AND THE ENVIRONMENT AT HEART. She isn't out to exploit, destroy, and make war.

THAT'S WHY VOTING FOR Dr. Jill Stein is the only rational, decent, healthy course of action left to you all.
 

Janet B (0)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 1:04 pm
Thanks
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 5:00 pm
Excellently put Darren (your comment of Oct. 30, 9:51 am) - Green Stars abound **********************************************

I didn't know you can get so much out of your skin - ;-)!!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 7:15 pm
Ken I can't speak for everyone but those of us voting for Stein are doing so because we believe in her platform and corresponds with our belief. The two mainstream Parties are BOTH failing this Country and I certainly do not forget the things that the Bush Administration did or Reagan - but I also know what is going on with the Democrats too.

I think you should read this article I just posted for an understanding of where I am anyways. How Democrats Killed Their Populist Soul

You are very correct Eleonora if someone was applying for most any job the baggage that Hillary has at this moment let alone in the past would disqualify her. But we know there is a double standard over here, one for the average person and another for the Elites, like Hillary and Donald Trump.

I mean over here they were going to arrest a native woman simply because she spoke a minute too long at a hearing. Thankfully one of the council people got a clue that this was a bit extreme and walked over and asked the police officer to let her finish. She wasn't shouting, she was speaking in a normal voice and here she was subject to arrest and then we have what is going on in DC.

Depends on who you are, how well connected, and how wealthy you are.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday October 30, 2016, 11:37 pm
This is why I like you so much, Dandelion - you're not willing to only look with one eye ... and you hate it, when someone tries to pull the wool over your eyes too!!! I could never and will never endorse this attitude to "vote for the lesser of the two evils". What's wrong with voting your conscience ... or is basic evil really someone's conscience? I don't believe that for a moment!

The scare tactic of "voting for Dr. Stein is voting for Trump" is so worn out and we've seen it in elections in other countries too. If everyone who says "I'd love to vote for Dr. Stein but she has no chance so I'll vote for Clinton" together with those who say "she's a criminal and I don't trust her a moment" would overcome the fear and brainwash ... Dr. Stein would comfortably win!!

As for your upsetting recount of the event with the native woman ... would the same have happened if that woman would have been white? I doubt. That council person is a person I would definitely re-elect!!

This ever present racism is so upsetting - but pandering to the will of the military corporate elite is perfectly fine for most of the people!! Go figure ...

Have a good day, Dandelion, and thanks for all you do to educate outsiders like me!!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 31, 2016, 1:07 am
A few years ago, we had local elections in which a very progressive team was standing - but many people thought the lead person was considered too "marginal" by others. When the results came out, his team only lost by about 30 votes ... and I could count at least 40 people who had said they voted for someone else because Dom didn't have a chance so they didn't want to waste their vote ... (And the man elected has been a disaster in many ways, confuses his personal identity with his role as Mayor & attacks anyone who criticises his policies!)

I don't think that Jill Stein has the same chances - the "democratic" system is too stacked against 3rd Party candidates so too few people really recognise how close she stands to what they responded to with Bernie ... and far from everyone can cope with searching the alternative media to learn about those whose platforms are not readily shared on mainstream media.

But anyone who says it is a waste to vote for Jill Stein because she CAN'T win is being very short-sighted. Because going along with the Two Party monopoly is keeping a door closed for next time.
This means that again in 2020, people won't hear on mainstream media what the 3rd Parties are proposing, & yet again, people will believe their choice is limited to TWO candidates ...

And who knows? While I think that enough steps have been taken to rig voting, one way &/or another, so those who were won by what Bernie was proposing may well be blocked from using their right to vote ... well, who knows? Certainly, if all those who supported Bernie, & all those who really trust neither DT nor HC refused to be "blackmailed" into voting where they do NOT trust, and equally decided to take a stand, not curl up at home & refuse to vote at all ... If all those voices were used for Jill Stein, history of democracy in the US could take an upturn! And future elections could become more democratic, too ...
"I HAVE A DREAM" ... that democracy returns. That hawks & the 1% lose some of their excessive influence ... That the US return to a position that can be respected by the rest of the world.

That in the crunch, people listen to conscience, not fear-mongering & blackmail logic.
 

Ken O (55)
Monday October 31, 2016, 11:18 am
Geesh. There is absolutely no chance that Dr. Stein can win this election, it's simply not her time, the arithmetic doesn't support her chances. Therefore, any vote not for Hillary is a vote that doesn't count against Trump. My unwillingness to support Trump goes much deeper than the misogynistic clown himself it's about the Republicans gaining any further power in our government. They've been a literal disaster for the US and the world. Obama could have done much more had it not been for the obstructionist party. If Dr. Stein had the same support as Bernie I would vote for her which doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for her at a more opportune moment but right now I don't want any chance for Trump else we wind up with another disastrous Republican administration. Dr. Stein makes excellent points and would be great in some post in Hillary's cabinet with an eye on a run in the future. By the way, Hillary, like virtually ALL politicians has bad moves in her background (a vote FOR the war is not amongst them as the decisions made by many were tainted by the Cheney lie factory) neither is she the monster as she's been painted by Republican smear tactics. I mean how many Benghazi hearings has she been through now? How would Trump stand up to those kinds of vicious and persistent attacks? How would anyone? It's ridiculous to believe that a vote for Dr. Stein is anything other than a protest vote at this point as any vote for Dr. Stein is a vote not counted for Clinton and therefore has no chance of terminating Trump's chances. No, much as I like Dr. Steins views and as much as I dislike some of Hillary's past decisions Hillary has already received my vote (we voted early). Maybe next time, when the stakes are not as high. OBTW, I still don't believe Hillary is the demon she has been made out to be.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 31, 2016, 1:16 pm
Ken - look at the statistics.

There ARE States where your scenario of "a vote that is not for Clinton is a vote for Trump" could be valid, because Clinton doesn't have a clear lead.
BUT - this doesn't apply to ALL States. Not even to a majority of States.
Perhaps you live in one of the States where Clinton & Trump are running quite close ...

But you seem to have swallowed the scare-mongering for ALL States - and there, you are mistaken.

There are States where Clinton has a significant lead - and using one's voting rights to open fairer & fuller future representation of 3rd Parties in the whole campaign process does NOT represent a vote for Trump.

There are also States where Trump has a distinct lead & voting for Clinton won't make a difference, won't win her the State ... BUT - here too, is an opportunity to add weight to 3rd Parties, using one's voting rights to open fairer & fuller future representation of 3rd Parties in the whole campaign process

And there are two States - Utah and Alaska - where the dislike of BOTH the "main" candidates is so strong that it is possible that NEITHER will win - a 3rd Party candidate might take the State!!

AND you have a blind spot about "protest voting": you seem to see a vote that could make a 3rd Party eligible for access to support for the large scale presentation of their platforms, their positions on issues in the future is a WASTED vote.

I don't see it that way - I see it as constructive, for greater democracy in the future. Because "Democracy" includes the right to full information on what candidates are proposing - and the current reality in the US is light miles away from that. The current reality actually ensures that there is UNEQUAL access to information about candidates. Even Bernie did not receive equal exposure through mainstream media, although he adopted the strategy of running under one of the Two because of the inequality ... As for 3rd Party candidates - well, very determined voters search alternative media for information, but the average voter often doesn't even realise that they don't KNOW about alternatives - let alone where to find information. Sites like Care2 are raising awareness ... among members of Care2, and among friends of members who share information.

Sorry, Ken - your generalised logic just ensures that the next time, the stakes will again be kept narrowly restricted to the Two.

For those hesitating - check whether your opting to vote 3rd Party would REALLY make a difference & let Trump in ...
DON'T be driven by propaganda to vote against your conscience - at least, not without checking if 3rd Party votes could seriously change the balance ...
Look at 2016 Presidential Election Polls -
See where your State stands - you can check specifics with 3rd Party by checking "Display Polls that Include 3rd Party Nominees". If you find a 10% difference between DT & HRC - well, you don't even need to worry about whether your vote could swing DT into the White House ... (or HRC, for that matter!) Listen freely to your conscience instead of to the "blackmailing" narrative, it doesn't necessary apply!

REMEMBER - using your vote for a 3rd Party (hopefully Stein - I admit that my trust leans strongly her way/ Green Party for future elections) COULD mean inclusion of Green Party - or others - in the WHOLE campaigning process in 2020 - especially public debates that are heard & followed over mainstream media ... Your vote could open greater democratic election processes ...
 

Ken O (55)
Monday October 31, 2016, 2:22 pm
Evelyn, you do know this is a National election not a State election don't you? Though it "COULD" mean inclusion of a Green Party in elections at some later time it's THIS election that's important. If Republicans win the White House it's a foregone conclusion there will be no Green Party anywhere. That's why it's so important that, no matter how great Dr. Steins ideas are (and they are) this is not the time to gamble.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Monday October 31, 2016, 2:54 pm
You do realize, that voting for Hillary Clinton, brings the strong possibility of WAR.
You do realize, that voting for Donald Trump, brings the strong possibility of division and aggressive reaction with other countries, i.e. WAR.
You do realize, that voting for Dr. Jill Stein being the strong possibility of peace and co-operation and a healthy rebuilding of your America.

Why ARE YOU willing to gamble by wishing to elect two candidates into office, who would continue what you currently have. . . ?
 

Ken O (55)
Monday October 31, 2016, 3:47 pm
No Darren, voting for Dr. Stein is the best way to siphon votes away from the only viable candidate that can beat Trump and stop the Republican takeover of our government. Dr. Stein cannot win, mathematical impossibility, voting for her is merely, at this point, a protest vote not a vote for a viable candidate. Clinton at least has an IQ, Trump does not.
 

Mark p.muc (31)
Monday October 31, 2016, 5:53 pm
thank you 4 the info ... & no comment:)
 

JL A (281)
Monday October 31, 2016, 8:58 pm
Evelyn, Ken lives in NC where the polls have been switching who is leading so his scenario probably fits for NC but it definitively is absurd in CA and doesn't apply to me or our votes here.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday October 31, 2016, 11:57 pm
That's what I reckoned too, JL!

Ken - one would think from your comment that State level was irrelevant! But the States are where the 270+ start to be counted ...

I suspect that you weren't happy with being "forced" to support Clinton based on concern about blocking Trump, and perhaps that is why you are taking the stance "this is a National election" as though I were stupid enough not to recognise that a President is elected at a national level!!

But the reality is that people vote at State level - & the status of the State DOES reflect whether the non-supporters of DT & HC COULD tilt the balance by voting outside the Two. There are very few States where any 3rd Party Nominee stands a hope of defeating the Two - but a vote can still be constructive if it moves the US towards opening up the entire election process to include "outsiders" - not just the Two old parties.

It is clear that exposure to equal media coverage increases awareness of alternatives. At present, to be recognised & heard widely, a candidate HAS to move under the wing of those Two. Is that truly "democratic"???
 

Ken O (55)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 4:02 am
No, your state vote is not irrelevant but Dr. Stein is polling at about 5% nationally which means zero chance of winning the white house. Does Hillary lie? Yep, so do all lawyers but she wins, it's what lawyers do, they do the best they can for their clients. Better question is do Republicans lie, and the answer is yes, often. This is a difficult race, wasting your vote on someone, however good they are, when they can't win isn't an option it's a protest vote at best. Dr. Stein hasn't a prayer of winning this election, voting for her is throwing your vote away. We can't afford another Republican administration especially another Republican administration with a buffoon in charge, look what happened last time. I very much like what Dr. Stein stands for but this is not her time.
 

Ken O (55)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 4:05 am
A most poignant comment from the Guardian:
"With a serious risk of a Trump presidency, progressives don't have the luxury of casting purely symbolic -- and utterly useless -- protest votes.
It's politically irresponsible."
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 4:12 am
The Guardian is at least a decent newspaper, compared the right-wing dross that's peddled by the Daily Maul and Daily Express (ALL British newspapers. . . tell me, why don't you use your U.S. newspapers as sources, or do you recognized their Corporate Elite bias?)

I would try and expand your horizons and try not to let your suggestible brain fall for the Two-Party duopoly, which it clearly is doing judging by your posts, and realize that if sufficient numbers REALIZE AND VOTE for Dr. Jill Stein, she will win. It is as simple as that.
 

Ken O (55)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 4:45 am
I don't read American newspapers, they're all bought and paid for by the major corporations (4 I think) that literally own them all. This has been going on since the end of WWII and the inception of Operation Mockingbird. Yes there is a two party duopoly, it's not the best thing out there but then neither is allowing the Republican party to dominate our political landscape. Here's another excellent post from the Guardian:
" NigelRG
10h ago
4 5

Why would you throw away a vote on someone who can't possibly be elected? To massage your ego and be able to tell yourself that you'd "done the right thing"? I happen to like the Green Party's platform, but until they've developed some serious congressional candidates across the nation, I'm not going to vote for their Presidential candidate."
Dr. Stein hasn't a prayer this election, maybe later when she winds up with a decent following, right now it's utterly hopeless. At least Bernie had a chance but not after being crushed by the DNC. Dr. Stein, much as I like her ideas is nothing more than a "spoiler" this time.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 6:33 am
Bernie only had that chance (crushed by manipulation once his popularity threatened the DNC's real choice) because he joined the Democrats.

Jill Stein's time isn't this election - I agree. But what you ignore is that it won't be next time either unless she/ Green Party get VISIBILITY - and that visibility depends on getting at least 5% THIS time. Those who don't WANT Green Party - or others - to get that visibility next time are selling the "spoiler" label - which apparently, you've bought.

And using such labels is a denial of the right to stand for a position outside the Two parties.

What you don't seem to get, Ken, is that voting for a Third Party spoils NOTHING in most States, because either HC or DT have a strong lead.
But applying the "spoiler" label across the board spoils FUTURE opportunities.

You made your choice, apparently without feeling strong support FOR HC; yours was a NEGATIVE vote, a vote AGAINST DT. This is what fitted your conscience. In a State where the results could fall either way.

But you have no right to condemn Jill Stein for standing in 2016, calling her a "spoiler" because the two main candidates are both unpalatable to many US citizens, so an outside choice has appeal. You may like her ideas, but you want her to step down, step out of the race ... effectively support someone who shares VERY FEW of her principles? It's bad enough that Bernie signed on to an agreement that gave him some visibility but then - despite voting fraud & manipulation that minimised coverage of his campaign & blocked voters supporting him - committed him to supporting the winner of the Primaries (largely standing on "principles" that he does NOT share).

The "time" of 3rd Party candidates will NEVER come if one allows this "spoiler" label to discourage 3rd Party supporters from voting according to THEIR conscience.

But - a 3rd Party vote in States where the outcome is pretty clear is constructive long-term thinking, not a vote for a "spoiler". Such votes could make the difference between a 2020 repeat of 3rd Party candidates being considered as "spoilers" - and a 2020 election where visibility is accorded to alternative candidates.

That is what you are totally overlooking ...
 

JL A (281)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 10:07 am
Wise words Evelyn; thank you. Those who are voting Green now are voting for the future rather than giving in to doom of never having anything other than evil to vote for.
 

Ken O (55)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 10:12 am
Evelyn, WTF are you talking about? You agree that this isn't Jill Stein's time but you think voting for her is viable? Everybody gets to vote their own conscience, true, I voted already and I voted for Hillary. You can vote whoever you want as well, but why, when you know how tight (inexplicably) this race is, would you vote for someone who can't possibly get elected? Thereby increasing the chances we'll get another moron in the white house. Just to make a point? Better to keep the stupid party out of power and wait for another election cycle when Dr. Stein just might have the serious backing she doesn't have now. The time of a "third party" is not now. They need a much more visible base and it's not us, not this time. Want to support here? Send her a card telling her you like her views, at least that way you don't jeopardize our country just to make a point.
 

JL A (281)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 12:19 pm
The race is only tight in some states and electoral college votes are based on state level results.

Anyone who understands how our elections work would understand that votes in all the other states to create a viable third party is the smartest thing to do if they do not want to perpetuate the evils both Trump and Clinton represent (aka corporate priorities at odds with the people's needs committed to perpetual war profits in lieu of anything like a democratic republic).
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 12:43 pm
I prefer to stay out of this evolving discussion, have said all there was to say previously, in fact, much earlier already. What I will add here is just this notion by Ken:
"...but she wins, it's what lawyers do, they do the best they can for their clients." Absolutely! But I do hope sincerely that NOBODY here would in their wildest dreams imagine for a second those clients could be YOU, the American people! LOL

Besides, a word to Darren: your assertion about Trump making/starting a war might be completely wrong.I do think it IS wrong, defining war as what the word means.
Have you-and generally how many of you have actually read his important speeches, the ones that matter? I'm NOT a "Trump apologist" but frankly, I HAVE found quite a few things he said he'll do, such as in his first 100 days, that make a whole lot of sense!
We need not discuss those other ones that don't. When it comes to peace or war, nothing else matters any longer anyway. And there's more to this our mother earth than just Turtle Island.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday November 1, 2016, 12:53 pm
Another tip on the side: perhaps ALSO read and have a look at what EXACTLY the FBI is currently investigating about the Clinton case. Actually there are five different quite serious cases the FBI are on, two of them about the Clinton Foundation.
If she does make it into office ti will be rather futile. But may be call that family tradition...
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday November 2, 2016, 5:25 pm
Ken "Maybe next time, when the stakes are not as high." This I hear over and over at every election cycle. How people like the 3rd Party Candidates - yet always see that the stakes are too high so must go with the lesser of the evils or whatever.

I agree with Ros - who knows, there may be no 2020 election. I hope it doesn't come to that but I do not care to risk it. My vote is to the Peace Candidate and the one who isn't supporting fracking because if the nuclear war doesn't get us the global climate disruption will.

Yes, everyone must vote how they best see it, but I'm tired of people telling me because I vote for the Peace Candidate, the environmental Candidate, that somehow my vote is wasted or it's a protest vote. Not it isn't wasted and it is my vote that I firmly can live with, it supports my beliefs.

I know you've expressed Ken how you don't want the Republicans to get into the White House but tell me what has the Democrats done in the White House that has been so terrific. Yes, I know the obstruction by the Republicans but there is other things that were direct from President Obama. Like he could've allowed the Patriot Act to expire, he didn't, signed it back in and made it stronger. He could"ve let the Bush tax cuts return to what they were before the Bush tax cuts, he didn't and cemented in those tax cuts for the rich. He threw the Social Security Benefits onto the chopping block, the cornerstone of the New Deal Program set up by Democrats - how dare he!

President Obama placed in the Race to the Top a program more punitive than the No Child Left Behind that Bush placed in. Obama has also broken up more families and shipped them out of this Country some former Veterans that fought for this Country now living without documentation just on the other side of the wall in limbo land, belonging to no Country now. He increased the drone warfare that Bush started and we now have more enemies than ever. We are now in 5 wars - that mainstream media will not speak about he is again a Peace Prize Democrat no less.

If the Democrats are so terrific why didn't they pass the Universal Health Care when the first two years of his Presidency we had the House and the Senate ALL Democrats. Instead we get this watered down and helped mostly the For Profit Insurers Affordable Care Act that still leaves millions uncovered and is not all that affordable and going up rapidly in cost. That too was a Republican "dream" that Obama ushered in.

Under Bill Clinton - a Democrat - we got NAFTA, removal of Glass-Steagall, the Telecommunications Act, the Welfare Reform Act, the Crime Bill Act of 94. I mean I could go on all night about what BOTH Parties have done to get us into this mess.

Do tell me when when people are ever going to wake up and NOT support two Parties that are both in fact destroying us. I'm so tired of the dyed in the wool Republicans seeing no issue with their Party and willing to turn a blind eye to what it is doing but I'm also tired of the Democrats doing the same thing. Afraid of the Republicans and not the Democrats! My goodness what difference is there? Very little at this point.

Yes Ros people will have to live with their vote I just wish I didn't have to suffer for keeping corruption going by voting in these two broken Parties over and over with these corrupted Candidates that most people do not want to begin with. Only 9% of the people even voted to have these two nominated that is NOT in my way of seeing things a democracy.

 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday November 2, 2016, 5:35 pm
I very clearly understand what Evelyn is saying on her comment of Tuesday November 1, 2016, 6:33 am it has made sense to me.

You know if Jill Stein receives 5% of the vote the Green Party will be on the ballots of all States next election. It is time consuming and hard to get onto the ballots and much time has to be spent meeting individual State's requirements. Plus the Party receives funding if they gain 5% which is also a help in the future to get the word out as to who they are and what they are about. Two pluses right there by getting 5% - and if 15% is reached that Party will be able to be on stage for the debates and more people will hear their voices. It is very important to look towards the future - that is called hope. Let us hope we have a future after people run us to death into the ground supporting the Republicans and the Democrats at this point.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday November 2, 2016, 5:52 pm
Angelika "I prefer to stay out of this evolving discussion, have said all there was to say previously, in fact, much earlier already. What I will add here is just this notion by Ken:
"...but she wins, it's what lawyers do, they do the best they can for their clients." Absolutely! But I do hope sincerely that NOBODY here would in their wildest dreams imagine for a second those clients could be YOU, the American people! LOL"

You got that one correct - I know people like myself are not even on her radar.

Ken "You can vote whoever you want as well, but why, when you know how tight (inexplicably) this race is, would you vote for someone who can't possibly get elected? Thereby increasing the chances we'll get another moron in the white house. Just to make a point?"

I'm not trying to make a point, I'm trying to gain better leadership. You have to realize I find them BOTH equally awful. I know there are many who think she is the better of the two but there are many who think he is better than the two - hence why it is a close race. But then there are others, like myself that can't go with either of them - there is no better than they are both worse and with that I proudly vote for Jill Stein.

All I can say, is if we are lucky enough a lot of people will feel the same way and she'll get better numbers than people expect. Few expected Bernie to do well and if there wasn't fraud, media blackout and other dirty tricks we'd not even be having this conversation, he'd be our next President by a landslide. The Dem's made a poor choice in pushing a flawed Candidate and that doesn't mean I have to support it, fraud and all, no thank you.

And besides this FBI situation Angelika there are cases making its rounds through the various courts in the USA on this election for Democratic nomination. The whole thing rots and far from being a protest vote as you keep calling it Ken, I call it not supporting corruption no matter whose Party it is being pushed by. We don't get a better system by supporting the corruption within the system.

Sometimes we have to do as Mario Savio said “There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part.

And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all.”

I have thrown my body on the wheels of the machine - maybe not enough of us will but it is better than oiling that corrupt machine.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 12:08 am
******************************************************************************* Dandelion!

Too few votes now (because people who don't trust the TWO still vote for the one they see as "a lesser evil", and in my book, THAT is a "negative" vote - a "protest" vote if you like!!!)
=> INVISIBILITY of alternative choices - yet again - next time
=> What you aren't hearing about = what you can't make an informed decision about
=> Choosing to vote - yet again - for a "lesser evil" next time.

That way guarantees indefinite renewal of lesser evil voting -
That way means the time will NEVER be right -
Alternative candidates whose platforms are not heard by a large chunk of the voters are then labelled "SPOILER" ... because many of those who DO hear their message and recognise the desirability of their platform choose NOT to support either of the Two.
And democracy continues to be spoiled by a system that prevents widespread informed choice.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 12:27 am

Angelika, JL A, Dandelion, Evelyn - can't send you more stars at the moment - so here's a galaxy for excellent and to the point comments:

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 1:06 am
The American voting system is corrupt, and that mass marketing that goes into feeding people who end up believing, that there are only two viable candidates is astonishing and scary.

There will be NO "next time" as next time, you'll get exactly the same, if Americans don't wake up and take the only choice that is available. Dr. Jill Stein.
 

Nyack Clancy (287)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 1:15 am
Dr Jill Stein? How come this has not hit you list of special news?

Jill Stein’s Ideology Says One Thing—Her Investment Portfolio Says Another
The holier-than-thou Green Party candidate rails against Big Carbon, big banks, Big Pharma—while she holds substantial investments in them.

Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein has largely based her campaign on her uncompromising positions on the environment, opposition to big banks and Wall Street, defense contractors, and the pharmaceutical industry. But an analysis of her financial disclosures, which she was required to file as a presidential candidate, show she is heavily invested in the very industries that she maligns the most and as a result of her investments, she has built significant wealth.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/26/jill-stein-s-ideology-says-one-thing-her-investment-portfolio-says-another.html
 

Nyack Clancy (287)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 1:16 am
But that's ok- I already KNEW I was not going to be able to rely on anyone at Care2 to post the truth about Jill Stein in the Care2 News Network.
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 3:49 am
Here comes the daily beast..alright. Probably as reliable about Dr Stein as they've been about the Syrria war for years, yeah!
More important: how many of you knew they can actually withdraw and change their EARLY vote in a few states if they changed their mind ?! ( time limited)

'These States Allow Early Voters to Change Their Minds'- http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/states-early-voters-change-minds/story?id=43243947 and here >

Among the states that do allow voters to change their early ballot after it's been cast are: Wisconsin; Minnesota; Michigan; Pennsylvania; New York; Connecticut; and Mississippi.
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/31/politics/changing-early-vote-cast/ )
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 7:22 am
@ Ros-don't miss this 25 mins John Pilger special on Sat. Europe time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhWztU3Xcmw
“The Clinton camp has been able to project a neo-McCarthyist hysteria that Russia is responsible for everything. Hillary Clinton has stated multiple times, falsely, that 17 US intelligence agencies had assessed that Russia was the source of our publications. That’s false – we can say that the Russian government is not the source,” Assange told the veteran Australian broadcaster as part of a 25-minute John Pilger Special, courtesy of Dartmouth Films.
"Hillary Clinton is just one person. I actually feel quite sorry for Hillary Clinton as a person, because I see someone who is eaten alive by their ambitions, tormented literally to the point where they become sick – for example faint – as a result of going on, and going with their ambitions. But she represents a whole network of people, and a whole network of relationships with particular states.”
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 2:39 pm
Weirder & weirder, - US politics have unsuspected warps!
Thanks Angie!

I wonder how many US citizens were aware of this?!!!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday November 3, 2016, 3:33 pm
Thanks, Angelika. I tried to find the timing of the broadcast without success. Do you have some more info as you say "Europe time" (?). Would be appreciated.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday November 4, 2016, 2:09 am
Trying to find a link for Saturday, or more precise timing than "November 5", I found an RT article about it - Assange: WikiLeaks did not receive Clinton emails from Russian govt (JOHN PILGER EXCLUSIVE)

It STILL doesn't tell us at what time on Saturday! I couldn't even find a schedule for the 5th - perhaps one has to look tomorrow morning? (https://www.rt.com/schedule/)

I liked the last para - because however little or much truth there is in the Clinton narrative, the whole stance DOES come across as a smokescreen ... just as DT's trying to use the emails as a smokescreen. (Has there EVER been such a high level of smokescreen use in elections? I thought Bush was bad enough, but that was perhaps only about 4 on a scale of 5 - this is definitely a 5 - leaving NO time for serious addressing of real policy issues ...)

"The Homeland Security Department and Office of the Director of National Intelligence posted a joint statement in October, claiming they were “confident” that the Russian government “directed” this year’s leaks.

Moscow has rejected the accusation, with presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov calling the claims “nonsense,” while Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said the “public bickering with Russia” before the US election is probably a “smokescreen” to draw the voters’ attention away from serious domestic issues."

Definitely truth there ...
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday November 4, 2016, 3:30 am
A relevant article just posted by Darren:
The Problem With Hillary
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday November 4, 2016, 6:44 am
Well thanks Evelyn, you were faster than me about Eleonora's question. The only reason I phrased it as I did, -perhaps I shouldn't have if it confused some,- was because Sat. 5 may already be Sun.6 Nov where Ros is.
Of course, once aired it will be available on both, the YT link and the RT website, I would certainly expect.
One doesn't need to watch it live in real time!
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday November 4, 2016, 9:25 am
RT is giving us ahead of tomorrow the Pilger docu in bits and pieces ;-) :
"In the second excerpt from the John Pilger Special, to be exclusively broadcast by RT on Saturday, courtesy of Dartmouth Films, Julian Assange accuses Hillary Clinton of misleading Americans about the true scope of Islamic State’s support from Washington’s Middle East allies. "

* https://www.rt.com/news/365299-assange-pilger-saudi-clinton/ *
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Friday November 4, 2016, 9:34 am
Shared that article over social media, Angelika.
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday November 4, 2016, 9:43 am
Yet Nothing new at all to me, it is for a reason that I've been calling ISIS a "mobile asset" all along.
And this funding AND arming continues todate and includes the Nusra Front, rebranded as "Jaish Fateh el Sham" plus all their affiliates, the so called "moderate opposition' groups, backed by the US. Those include the head choppers of the Zinki group who decapitated the 12 yrs old sick Palestinian boy live on camera.

Watch from tonight after 7pm local Aleppo time (when the latest 10 hour ceasefire imposed by the Russians is up) and/or tomorrow what will happen there: Russian patience with year long US LIES and corrupt games has run out, we'll see a devastating fire storm on East Aleppo eliminating the head choppers who've been holding hostage the population and stopping them from leaving through the humanitarian corridors.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Friday November 4, 2016, 11:12 am
Thank you Ros for the explanation about brokers and all and I had placed onto C2 information about all of that for people to learn. Unfortunately not enough people noted it to make the front page but I did see that Nyack had noted it and even left a comment - pity she NEVER reads anything - just comes along to leave her opinion all the time.

If anyone would like to read it, and perhaps if Nyack had read it, she wouldn't be so quick to drop the crap that is going around that misrepresents. Jill Stein Responds to Daily Beast Smear Attack By Calling for Disclosure of Chelsea Clintons Role as Director of Beasts Parent

Gee, the Clinton Camp with its billions of dollars in support and it's mainstream media coverage pushing her into the White House, is taking time to smear David so to speak. You know the David and Goliath type situation so the Democrats must be worried, can't have THAT Progressive message heard. They use to be the champions of those things now they found out, just like the Republicans, they can be just as corrupt too. In fact, many of them are former Republicans - in fact I think they still are as they seem awful comfortable in those shoes.

I also placed on an article that might be of interest to some - maybe Nyack can read both articles and give her opinion an uplift. The Real Reason They Attack Jill Stein

Ros ".the rest of the World has already had and disposed of female rulers for over a hundred years......and the best you can do.....is offer up Hillary Clinton......a 69 year old women who is a hawk, not a progressive and still trying to prove to Bill she'll wears the pants and it's payback time ......OMG...... it is all Putin's fault........"

Well that sums it up rather nicely Ros.....lol......

how sad, the best the American people want to aspire to - I could pull my hair out at times, but I know it will do no good and I'd be bald by now. We had better, but through trickery and fraud he was pushed out and now too many protect Hillary like she is some diamond in the sky and smear a nice woman such as Dr. Jill Stein that would be an honorable First woman President to go down in the history books.

Now future children, and young girls, will have to read about the corruption, emails, pay to play, so on so forth - oh, but this is a Country that whitewashes it's history - well never mind, I'm sure by that time she'll be made into a Saint.

Thanks Angelika for placing out that in certain States people can change their minds.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday November 5, 2016, 3:58 am
https://www.rt.com/news/365405-assange-pilger-full-transcript/
 

Sheryl G (359)
Saturday November 5, 2016, 7:43 am
ha ha I was just coming on to leave the link you left Angelika, I'll just hyperlink it Assange Pilger Full Transcript

Glad you placed that on there the other day I was waiting for it.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday November 5, 2016, 4:23 pm
That Interview wasn't as much as one might have expected and really had nothing new in there, that is, except probably for people who had not previously seen any of the leaked emails or read about it.

the real scope of the scandal was not mentioned b/c it does not derive from hacked emails, just from, well, rumors or questionable sources. I posted that somewhere else, not here.. ;--)
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday November 5, 2016, 4:42 pm
Thanks Evelyn, Angelika, Dandelion for your comments and links - much appreciated!!

Angelika ... don't you wonder at times why we're called "conspiracy theorists" ... only to get confirmation later that we were spot on - LOL - e.g. see ISIS?! I'm meantime so tired of this crap ...
 

Eric Lees (6)
Monday November 7, 2016, 7:50 am
Wow this is a hot topic. Congratulations on 250 comments Dandelion!

With one day left the outcome is pretty much set. Now all we can do is wait and see which version of evil we will get, the calculated from Clinton or the ignorance from Trump. Either way I predict we will set a new record for the worst President the bad part is we do it willingly. The Republic had a good run but no empire last forever, we have failed to learn the lessons of history. Ignorance it seems will win the day once again.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday November 7, 2016, 10:10 am
I'm sure Dandelion would be here commenting - but IT problems have knocked her off internet ...
She managed to go to her aunt's & use her computer briefly, but can't do that much ...

The message she sent me was:
I'm in a news blackout - my computer was blown out by an electric surge by a nearby transformer blowing out. It went through two surge protectors. Was just too near. I'm not sure when I can get back online.


A couple of hours earlier, I read a story posted by Darren:
A Digital 9/11 If Trump Wins

This said:
"There are disturbing signs that a digital 9/11 terror attack is being readied for election day in the US to ensure that Donald Trump does not win.

Such an attack – involving widespread internet and power outage – would have nothing to do with Russia or any other foreign state. It would be furnished by agencies of the US Deep State in a classic “false flag” covert manner. But the resulting chaos and “assault on American democracy” will be conveniently blamed on Russia.

That presents a double benefit. Russia would be further demonized as a foreign aggressor “justifying” even harsher counter measures by America and its European allies against Moscow.

Secondly, a digital attack on America’s presidential election day this week, would allow the Washington establishment to pronounce the result invalidate due to “Russian cyber subversion”. That option stands to be invoked if the ballot results showed Republican candidate Donald Trump as the imminent victor."

and further on:
" NBC cites a senior Obama administration official as saying that the Russians “want to sow as much confusion as possible and undermine our process”.

Ominously, the news outlet adds that “steps are being taken to prepare for worst-case scenarios, including a cyber-attack that shuts down part of the power grid or the internet.”

Nearly two weeks ago, on October 21-22, the US was hit with a widespread internet outage. The actors behind the “distributed denial of service” were not identified, but the disruption was nationwide and it temporarily disabled many popular consumer services. One former official at the US Department of Homeland Security described the event as having “all the signs of what would be considered a drill”.

Could that cyber-attack have been the work of US Deep State agencies as a dress rehearsal for an even bigger outage planned for November 8 – election day?"

Coincidence????
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday November 7, 2016, 10:22 am
That article should be read in full - I've only extracted a couple of passages ... there are more ...

Somebody with access to such information should start checking if Dandelion's surge was a single event, or if there have been a number ... across Florida. And if several there - what about elsewhere in "touch-&-go" States ...
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday November 7, 2016, 3:02 pm

To this serious discussion a lighter tone ... let me share an email I just got from a dear friend in Europe - hope you enjoy it!

~*~*~*~

A Message from the Queen!

To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

In light of your failure to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA, and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except North Dakota, which she does not fancy).

Our new Prime Minister, Theresa May, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.' Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary').

2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as 'like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of '-ize.'

3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not ready to shoot grouse.

5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialect in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.

11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.

14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.

God save the Queen!
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday November 7, 2016, 4:58 pm
WOW! directly from the very top of the Olympians, the committee of the 300 ;-) Speaks for itself!
Thx Eleonora
 

Marija Mohoric (25)
Wednesday November 9, 2016, 11:50 am
Enjoy with your Trump!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday November 10, 2016, 3:36 pm
Ah - here is the one that places her opinion onto the threads and claims it factual.

No WE, got him because of the trickery, media blackout, people like yourself that made sure that the few places he was being covered it was messed up and the election fraud by the DNC and the Hillary camp against Bernie Sanders. So you might want to turn the mirror back and take a good look as to who helped to usher in Trump.

Bernie Sanders had large numbers of enthused supporters; would of won against Trump, all polls were in fact showing just that.

One day you might understand, although I doubt it, that not wanting Hillary was also not wanting Trump or vice versa. Many of us didn't want either of them. So Congratulate yourself for supporting the flawed one, as people didn't want her back when Obama ran and most of the same people still didn't want her.

It she had been running against anyone of quality on the Republican side they would of wiped her out, that she had such a close race with a disaster in the making speaks volumes about how poor of a selection she was for the Democratic side.

Why do you seem so jolly do you no longer live in the USA? Or perhaps you never have.
 

Sheryl G (359)
Thursday November 10, 2016, 3:38 pm
Eleonora thanks for the bit of humor on here. I think I'll do okay with much of what was written because we had roundabouts in New England only we referred to them as rotaries, I'll adjust to roundabouts. I already at times spell my words colour, harbour, so on so forth having lived in Canada off and on as a youth. I can even say x, y, zed (z) instead of x, y, zee (z).

I hate coffee and only drink tea and 4 o'clock tea break I can jump right into, my Grandmother's generation, most all had fancy tea cups with saucers, I inherited both some of those pretty tea settings from my paternal Grandmother and my Momma Lee, the latter being Canadian.

It will be a bit hard to do chips or french fries in vinegar as I use to watch my Canadian friends enjoy them that way, I'm afraid I'll have to sneak a bottle of ketchup in my bag. However enough afternoon tea with a cake, biscuit, and fresh strawberries with cream - yummy who needs the chips/french fries.

I do empathize with my friends in Canada paying a higher petro, but their litres averaged out more than our gallon but they still did pay a bit higher overall. Riding on the left might not be much more challenging than avoiding all the tourist in Florida who rent cars and forget we drive on the right.

And I can manage well with only being allowed a vegetable peeler and I'm not a sports fan so they can call it whatever they like, I'll not notice.

Thanks Evelyn for bringing up why I have not been on here.
 

Eric Lees (6)
Friday November 11, 2016, 6:04 am
Look on the bright side. Electing Trump as the lesser evil from the 2 party Oligarchy might have allowed us to avoid WWIII.

Now that Republicans have control they will have to put their promises into actions. Let's hope they come up with real healthcare reform and real tax reform. Otherwise in 2 or 4 years the people will likely flip the coin back to the other wing of the Oligarchy.

If only we would use the opportunity to end the 2 party duopoly and push for real change. The 2 party system no longer represents 90% of we the people.

The Oligarchy may have lost this round but they are still very powerful, will Trump be willing and able to stand up to them? Time will tell...
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday November 11, 2016, 1:04 pm

So much agree with you, Eric - I'm tempted to say "your words in God's ears".
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 3:38 am
Eric - since when did any political party HAVE to put their promises into action? :>D
The French have a saying "Promises only engage those who believe them" ...

I don't see Trump standing up to the oligarchy - he has shares in Energy Transfer Partners (of DAPL infamy), to start with!!!

And his tax promises stand to benefit the 1% more than anyone else.

BUT - it looks as though they may move on health reforms that (although they don't admit it) build from Obama Care - and that could be good.

And although DT's unpredictability is scary when he is the one with the button for nuclear war (and that position of "why do we have weapons if we don't use them") ... he also has taken a position that is less confrontational over Daesh/Syria/Russia that I am hoping will be followed through.
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 3:59 am
Trump isn't so much standing UP TO Oligarchy, as wanting to BE the Oligarchy himself.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 6:26 am
Although Evelyn is correct there regarding Trump's investments, keep in mind that big oil/gas is NOT ALL that represents the 1%, the vast majority of "the ruling powers" is the finance industry to which he is NOT a slave, never has and won't be.
It is a futile exercise now trying to predict a whle lot of moves he may r may not make, that would put anyone in complicity with the media who've done so much damage over the years. Let's just wait and see!
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 6:33 am
The bigger danger may be in all these silly and dangerous protest rallies all over the country, instigated, organised and funded by George Soros, spread by NGOs we all thought to be 'progressive', such as MoveOn. When in reality they're a Soros tool for one of his famous "bringing demcracy" coups, always starting with riots.
That indeed sounds dangerous to me!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 8:01 am
Angie - "unpredictability" is the best adjective for DT - which means, NOBODY can predict his moves!!!
 

Darren Woolsey (218)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 9:04 am
Soros is one of the most dangerous people on the planet.

Anyone with the kind of power and perceived control he has, operating from a fundamental basis which lacks empathy, conscience, and sympathy with people, is a danger to himself as well as the rest of the world.

The worry is, SOME people actually believe in him and support him.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday November 12, 2016, 12:11 pm
Yes, Darren, and other simply pay/paided back the supporte they had from him! e.g. Clinton and Obama himself.
Evelyn, agreed! I should have said "speculate", not 'predict'.

But this looks like perhaps his first success: (and I hope it will set the path for TTIP as well!!)
https://twitter.com/econjared/status/797093388059312128
plus here: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-trade-tpp-lame-duck-231248
the main thing being: "A spokeswoman for House Speaker Paul Ryan said the Republican leader is standing by comments he made before the election that there would not be a vote in the lame duck."
Boom- there goes one of the almost signature achievements of the departing prez..., the other just getting a 'workover' ;-)
Might well be quid quo pro for Merrick Garland as supreme justice...-?
 
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