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Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in Court Had Thick Russian Accent

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: BostonBombings, BostonMarathonBombings, BostonBombers, Dzhokar, Tsarnaev, Russianaccent, phoney, actor, faketrial )

- 1987 days ago -
Watch the video until it gets to the video where Dzhokar is playing with, teasing a young family member. He has NO accent! Also, the sketch DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HIM. His NOSE, his Bone Structure, is DIFFERENT. Not just puffiness. Draw your own conclusions!


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Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 3:09 pm
Dzhokar Tsarnaev, the REAL one, is dead - or, is in really bad shape - or, is "unco-operative" -
and our beloved govt, which as we know, would NEVER deceive us - HAH! -
is not above pulling a fast one, and having a DOUBLE appear in court. Even a not-very-convincing one!

Opposing that idea, is the fact that Dzhokar's SISTERS were in the courtroom.
On the other hand, the two sisters could certainly have been INTIMIDATED from speaking out - they have children and families! Already, ONE KEY WITNESS WAS MURDERED BY THE FEDS IN COLD BLOOD. Very OPENLY, as if as a LESSON. [The young man in Florida, murdered in his own home while being questioned by the FBI!] [And it is also well-known, that over 30 people who "knew too much" about the Kennedy Assassination, were killed.... or died suddenly in odd and "mysterious" "accidents"...] The govt certainly is going to "cover their tracks", and by ANY MEANS NECESSARY...

On the other hand, interviewed live on air, Dzhokar's WRESTLING TEAMMATES said they didn't recognize him as the same person -
on the other hand, this was "spun" by the TV talking head as, "They didn't recognize 'the old' Dzhokar, he {was the same person} but had changed a lot."
Which "interpretation" is correct? your guess as good as mine...

The govt has had THREE MONTHS TO MESS WITH DZHOKAR'S MIND. With MK-ULTRA techniques...
He could be utterly brainwashed, to say anything the govt wants...
He could even have "regressed", in his mentality, to the time when he first came to the U.S. as a child, and maybe spoke "with an accent" then...
Dzhokar spent nearly his whole life in the U.S., his whole schooling was here, children learn languages really fast, better than adults and without accents, and all his classmates knew he spoke the same English they did, with no trace of any accent whatsoever. And you can certainly hear that in the video where he is playing with possibly his small Niece. "Why did you burp on me?" etc. NO trace of an accent.

Dzhokar is COMMUNICATING, in a sort of "code", the ONLY WAY HE CAN, that he is being FORCED to testify.. by saying what he's supposed to say, or be severely punished.... but the accent, is to LET PEOPLE WHO KNOW HIM KNOW, that this is not said VOLUNTARILY...
Various prisoners forced to testify, have used this sort of a "code", to let their families and loved ones know, "this is not really what I want to say". For example, they might refer in their "testimony" to events their families knew never happened, or say very uncharacteristic things that would escape people who didn't know them well... For example, they could say "I hate baseball" or "I love baseball" or "I hate the Boston Red Sox" and their interrogators and torturers wouldn't be familiar with the facts, but their families would understand if it wasn't the truth...

On the other hand, maybe the govt was totally incompetent in getting their "double" to speak with a Russian accent...
Hard to tell of course from a SKETCH, but the face IS NOT THE SAME, the very distinctive NOSE looks different... even an "apparent facial injury" as the reporter says, wouldn't change the proportions of the face that much... {"puffy" from plastic surgery???}... also, how TALL was Dzhokar? six feet tall? I DON'T THINK SO...
Apparently, RUSSIAN TV HAS A TAPE - not a drawing! - THAT PURPORTS TO SHOW DZHOKAR IN COURT, LIVE. But they aren't saying they are 100% sure the tape is real...
But if it IS real, one can certainly ask, WHY THE RUSSIANS HAVE A TAPE AND WE ARE SHOWN ONLY DRAWINGS...

All that is CERTAIN, is, that FUNNY STUFF IS GOING ON....
The REALITY is ANYBODY'S GUESS. A "conspiracy theorist" who says they KNOW, is simply making a wild leap...
All we KNOW for certain, is that WE ARE BEING FOOLED AND MANIPULATED. On MANY levels. That's an UNDISPUTED FACT.

{There is a clear tape you can see, of Dzhokar's brother, Tamerlan, being arrested after a police chase and put, naked, into a police car. There is a blur over his naked genitals. His hands are handcuffed in front of him. There is no wound or blood on his body. He is "escorted" by two cops, one on either side, but walks and gets into the police car under his own power. The NEXT THING WE KNOW, HE TURNS UP DEAD AND HORRIBLY WOUNDED AND BLOODY.... Nope, that STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN.}
And, WHAT IS THE BROTHERS' INVOLVEMENT, and apparently the DEAD KEY WITNESS'S INVOLVEMENT, and, yes, the FBI'S INVOLVEMENT, with the apparently-connected and unsolved MURDER OF THREE DRUG DEALERS???

As I have stated elsewhere, the Boston Bombing has ALL THE EARMARKS OF AN FBI STING OPERATION, but one gone HORRIBLY WRONG. {Or, maybe not "wrong"! But that is MY theory! for now, anyway.}
The FBI, as is EXTREMELY WELL-KNOWN by now, LURES disaffected young Muslim men, to agree with the FBI agent's help, to BOMB something-or-other; then the agent STEPS IN AT THE LAST MOMENT, TO ARREST THE HAPLESS GUY - thus at the same time SCARING the Public "Terrorists are EVERYWHERE!"; making an EXCUSE for the govt surveillance and invasions of Privacy and Civil Rights "We NEED this to keep you SAFE!"; and painting the govt as the heroic Good Guys.

For ABSOLUTE VERIFIED FACTS on this, see the November 2011 issue of Mother Jones Magazine, "The Informers", it's AVAILABLE ON-LINE...
If you read that, you won't look on ANY FUTURE bombings and phoney "bomb threats" in the same light, EVER...
And these in the article are PERFECTLY VERIFIED AND KNOWN instances, entirely open, not "mysterious" at all...

Mother Jones Magazine, November 2011, "The Informers".

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 4:30 pm
About that "Russian accent" [or would that be a "Chechen accent"? Different languages in the North Caucuses Region!]:

Prisoners in Guantanamo, and Abu Ghraib, and Bagram, and other notorious U.S. installations, tortured for a long time, have REGRESSED - the torture is DESIGNED TO DO THAT.
A technique developed by MK-ULTRA.

Also see Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine, on torture.

According, again to The Shock Doctrine, ENTIRE POPULATIONS are subjected to "Shock and Awe" in order to MANIPULATE THEM PSYCHOLOGICALLY, into

For a REAL BACKGROUND UNDERSTANDING of what's going on in our country - and HOW THE "BOSTON BOMBER" TRIAL "FITS IN" -
Please read BOTH
Mother Jones Magazine, November 2011, "The Informers", available on-line
Naomi Klein, "The Shock Doctrine", a source on TORTURE

[Please do get around to reading BOTH - the sooner the better!!!!!]

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 5:28 pm
I should point out now -
That's right! - NO CASE WHATSOEVER.


There is NO VIDEO of Dzhokar "placing a bomb". In spite of all the surveillance videos!!!
His BACKPACK was a different COLOR from the one "discovered" at the scene of the bombing.

He WAS at the scene of the bombing. With a backpack. So were hundreds of people!
He IS a Muslim. That doesn't make him guilty!

I believe there WAS a bombing, and that people WERE killed and injured. {The wilder "conspiracy theorists" deny that! But we don't have to go there!}
[I should point out, tho, that altho 4 deaths and multiple injuries are terrible, this WAS NOT A BIG BOMB and there were relatively FEW deaths and injuries, compared to bombs that GO OFF EVERY DAY IN MARKETPLACES SUCH AS IN BAGHDAD, AND KILL AND INJURE FAR MORE PEOPLE.]
And ONE of the bombs that went off, was JUST A SMOKE BOMB that only broke some glass and left a dark mark on the sidewalk! [And there were OTHER BOMBS THAT DID NOT GO OFF - that couldn't POSSIBLY have been placed by the Tsarnaev brothers!]


and since KEY WITNESSES like Tamerlan Tsarnaev, and that young man killed by the FBI in Florida, who could have testified to Djhokar's guilt or innocence, are DEAD -






It's CURTAINS FOR DJHOKAR, one way or another...

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 5:50 pm
Probably, in order to EXTRACT a phoney "Confession" that the govt is so RELYING ON - as the govt HAS NO OTHER EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER -

In order to extract that "Confession" they'll offer Dzhokar a DEAL - a Life Sentence instead of THE DEATH PENALTY if he "Confesses".
[That is just ONE of the kind of things that's wrong with the Death Penalty!]
Dzhokar would be a FOOL to accept such a deal!
But, what kind of legal advice would they let him have, helpless as he is in jail? {Altho there are FOUR LAWYERS AMONG HIS CLOSE FAMILY MEMBERS.}
Getting "Life in Prison", will probably mean that DJHOKAR WILL BE "OFFED" BY SOME "PATRIOTIC" PSYCHOPATH, which will be easy to find in prison - before Djhokar can "talk" to anyone about what he knows.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev WAS ASSASSINATED. So he couldn't TALK. About what he might have known about the FBI INVOLVEMENT that his Mother and his Father BOTH MENTIONED.
[Can't shut THEM up! Fortunately for their lives, they LIVE ABROAD. They'd be FOOLS to come here! The U.S. probably wouldn't let them in, anyway! and is doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to DISCREDIT the Parents, by SLANDEROUS PROPAGANDA!]

so therefore the govt HAS TO RELY ON GETTING A "CONFESSION".
That means, TORTURE - or TRICKERY. Or both.

{The jail time will be served by the REAL Djhokar - IF HE IS ALIVE STILL - and not by his surrogate or "double" - IF THERE IS ONE.
How about that "puffy face" and "apparent facial injury" - not to mention the "thick - THICK! - Russian accent". PLASTIC SURGERY OF THE SURROGATE???
The SURROGATE who will make the CONFESSION IN COURT for all to hear?????
[And then either be offed - or go into a govt witness protection program...]}

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 6:17 pm
so therefore the govt HAS TO RELY ON GETTING A "CONFESSION".
That means, TORTURE - or TRICKERY. Or both.

The jail time will be served by the REAL Djhokar - IF HE IS ALIVE STILL - and not by his surrogate or "double" - IF THERE IS ONE.
How about that "puffy face" and "apparent facial injury" - not to mention the "thick - THICK! - Russian accent". PLASTIC SURGERY OF THE SURROGATE???
The SURROGATE who will make the CONFESSION IN COURT for all to hear?????
[And then either be offed - or go into a govt witness protection program...]

[Djhokar's Wrestling Teammates, said the - {?} surrogate's {?} - BODY LANGUAGE didn't "match" Djhokar's - and THEY SHOULD KNOW, right??? of ALL people...

Maybe they TROTTED THE SURROGATE OUT to see if he would "pass"... even if the coaching and the plastic surgery weren't quite completed yet...
I'm just speculatin'.

A CONFESSION BY SURROGATE, IN OPEN COURT would maybe be the ONLY way the govt could be SURE...

'cuz these Chechens, man, they are KNOWN TO BE VERY, VERY TOUGH.....!]

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 7:46 pm
Something I just thot of:
Because ALL THEY HAVE is if they can get a CONFESSION -
THAT is why they had pretended to "find", inside the boat that Djhokar hid in, supposedly "written with a Sharpie" WHILE HE WAS BEING SHOT AT BY THE POLICE, and IN THE DARK, and LYING DOWN -

a bunch of "Muslim-terrorist-sounding" GIBBLE-GABBLE that doesn't sound in the LEAST, the way that Djhokar expresses himself, or any American teenager [which is what he IS!} expresses themselves...

It will NEVER be introduced in Court, and of course they KNOW it would NEVER stand up in Court as "evidence". It is so OBVIOUSLY Fake!!!!!
They - the U.S. government versus ONE TEENAGER - are trying to RAILROAD Djhokar to LIFE IN PRISON {and a short life, at that!}, by
2] Getting SOMETHING they can call a "Confession" pulled and twisted out of him, somehow, ANYhow, they are DESPERATE.

So, when I saw in the news about this PHONEY WRITTEN-ON-THE-WALL-IN-THE-BOAT "Confession" -
and, count on it, YOU WILL NOT HEAR ABOUT IT AGAIN -

And ANY Thinking Person!

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 8:05 pm
Bear with me, this is pretty long I know...
But, it is FASCINATING, to me at least...!

If Djhokar was WOUNDED IN THE THROAT - as they SAID he was, altho it didn't look like that when the Video showed him getting out of the boat -
Which, I hope, Djhokar RESISTS TO THE END.
Anyway, they would have to PROVE IT WAS HIS HANDWRITING since he {supposedly} couldn't talk - or they'd have to have him sign it in Open Court, so they couldn't PUBLICLY FORCE OR TORTURE HIM INTO DOING THAT.
So - just like in some stupid movie or spy novel! - they GET A SURROGATE who, MIRACULOUSLY! can actually SPEAK! - and with Plastic Surgery, omigod like the movies, they get a NEAR RESEMBLANCE - but they can't get over that the guy is WAY TOO TALL and doesn't have the right BODY LANGUAGE...
[Spy novels ARE based on some sort of truth, more or less...]

[And maybe the reason the guy kept "touching his face", is because the Plastic Surgery STILL HURTS...?]

Neill A (667)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 8:30 pm
Noted and shared. Thanks a lot.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 11:27 pm
Thanks for reading all this whole damn thing!!!
We must be BEACONS OF STRENGTH, and of INFORMATION, for those around us...

Sherri G (128)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 11:31 pm
Noted TY B.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Sunday November 10, 2013, 11:43 pm
When Djhokar got out of the boat, in the Video, he was NOT WOUNDED.
Then, they said he was "SHOT IN THE THROAT", or his throat was cut SOMEHOW [obviously so he COULDN'T TALK - they were AFRAID OF WHAT HE'D SAY].
[If he'd had THAT serious a wound, he couldn't've gotten out of the boat - CLIMBED out of the boat - under his own power, could he!!!!!]
Then I guess they realized, they NEEDED A "CONFESSION" because they HAD NO EVIDENCE, ZILCH, ZERO, NOTHING. So a "Confession" was their ONLY hope!

That's why they then WROTE THIS PHONEY "CONFESSION"-LIKE THING with a Sharpie, in the boat - making him sound like the RABIDLY FANATIC MUSLIM everybody knew he was NOT!

Then, altho this made good propaganda for the STUPID to swallow, I guess they realized they NEEDED SOMETHING MORE, SOMETHING THAT WOULD HOLD UP IN COURT.

I guess this Teenager is resisting the ENTIRE FORCE OF THE U.S. GOVT.
They can't KILL him just now, it would be TOO OBVIOUS, even for them!!!
So.... da dee da da, da dee da da ... INTO THE TWILIGHT ZONE!

That whole sequence show HOW DESPERATE THEY REALLY ARE.....

Mari 's (1356)
Monday November 11, 2013, 12:35 am
tyvm as always BMutiny

kate K (481)
Monday November 11, 2013, 2:50 am

Cathleen K (73)
Monday November 11, 2013, 6:38 am
What happened to Todashev in FLA is VERY strange. When Rachel Maddow started talking about the murders in Waltham, I was flabbergasted, but have come to see it as making sense. Terrorists using drug dealing money to support themselves is a very old story, especially if you're Irish. The Unionist paramilitary groups, unable to hold fundraisers in the Republic and the Irish diaspora, started dealing drugs back in the 70s. The investigation of the murders at the time was pathetic. The cops were told to talk to Tamerlan by many people they DID interview; had they done so, he might well be in jail and Dzhokar still in college, not sufficiently radicalized yet to act alone. With his brother in jail for killing his wrestling buddies, I think it's likely that he would have reverted to his American teenager self completely. This is something I am personally familiar with from my time in the ranks of Noraid and the whole (Irish) Republican movement back in the 70s and 80s. People get radicalized by their elders. Tamerlan was radicalized by his mother and Dzhokar by Tamerlan. I knew a lot of younger brothers radicalized by older brothers. I myself was radicalized by my dad and my God mother.

Sadly, the FLA episode makes sense too, when you consider that the FBI investigates itself and virtually NEVER finds it's agents guilty of malfeasance. It's an agency in desperate need of a REAL internal affairs bureau, the kind hated and feared by the rank and file. Unless the people you are watching think you're ready to hang them out to dry, you're not doing your damned job. Clearly, the FBI has NO such organ.

I had to stop reading when I got to the part about Tamerlan being arrested naked. The 'naked guy', who does look a bit like him, is a Watertown resident who happened to be out on that night, was thrown to the ground, cuffed with his hands behind him and strip searched by the police. He was all over the news, Barbara, saying he didn't give a crap WHAT the cops did to him on the night in question. Sorry, but the fact that you didn't know that makes me completely uninterested in the rest of your 'research', since it obviously wasn't conducted in what W used to call 'the reality based community'.

If you want to convince anyone with more than a 6th grade education, you'll take down that video. Only a rather stupid child, or a crazy person DYING to be convinced, finds anything with that kind of cut off editing convincing. This tape is so bad that it wouldn't make it onto Glenn Beck or Alex Jones; I'm embarrassed for you. I'm going to cut you some slack here, since you didn't know about 'naked guy' and let you in on a state secret broadcast by every news service on the planet: those same cops who strip searched him shot Dzhokar in the face the night they captured him; the bullet entered through his mouth, causing injuries to his tongue and pharynx and fracturing his skull, then exited through his lower left jaw. My medical education and experience tells me that injuries like that will alter how someone speaks and looks, permanently My IRA experience tells me that guys who regard themselves as freedom fighters will often speak the Irish they learned in prison while in English courts. Dzhokar is a kid in a prison without a senior leadership counsel to tell him how to act in court. Was he being ironic by using a 'Russian accent'? Who knows? Did he use a Russian accent? Considering he used exactly two words - "not guilty" - I'd call it a stretch to reach such a conclusion based on two words from someone with the kind of maxillofacial injury he sustained. His sisters, who were in the court, crying, do not deny that it was him, and that's more than good enough for me. But hey, I was living and working in NYC on 9/11 and I don't think the government did it, so what do I know, right? For the record, I also do not believe that the Air Force has alien remains in Roswell, NM, or that Obama was behind Benghazi, either. There are plenty of very real things that the government is doing wrong. Making crap up diverts attention from things that deserve and need it.

Angelika R (143)
Monday November 11, 2013, 6:56 am
Thx Barbara, -only little can I say about this as I've not seen most of the videos at that time. What I can say in general,though, is that one should NEVER trust gov., CIA, FBI etc period. So I'd agree that most likely everything presented now to the public would be again lies and/or cover ups.

Angelika R (143)
Monday November 11, 2013, 7:00 am
As for this video here, sketches /drawings are just that and not photos so I wouldn't really know. One thing i do notice is that if Dzokhar is said to be about 6 feet tall the women next to him must be as tall,-rather unlikely.

Bryna Pizzo (139)
Monday November 11, 2013, 8:21 am
Thank you Barbara. I was shocked by the video.

Dotti L (85)
Monday November 11, 2013, 8:33 am
Interesting and puzzling.

Pamela W (75)
Monday November 11, 2013, 9:02 am
Noted ! Very intriguing ..... it will be interesting to see where this "goes" .... Thanks Barbara !!

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Monday November 11, 2013, 1:28 pm
The "naked guy" was identified as Tamerlan by his Aunt in Canada. Also, he has the exact physique of Tamerlan, which was shown in boxing photos. Also, the face is the same - there was ANOTHER guy who was strip-searched and thrown to the ground. He was ALSO shown in videos.
My "research" includes Mother Jones Magazine, November 2011, "The Informers",
and Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine".
These give BACKGROUND, CONTEXT, altho written of course way before the bombings.

I don't mind there being CONTROVERSY about this. That is my PURPOSE, to raise Questions. My ideas aren't "set in stone". The IRA experience is certainly pertinent. The Connections between Drug-dealing and Terrorism - I'm glad you pointed that out. [Arresting Drug Dealers and then, conditionally, letting them go, is one way the FBI RECRUITS SNITCHES, who have to inform in order to stay out of prison!]
I have done a bunch of "research" on the brothers' family. Interesting bunch. Uncle Ruslan has CIA ties. Have no idea where that fits in. [Possibly what got Tamerlan in and out of the country so easily, to go to a "terrorist training camp" in the Caucasus. Those camps are run or supported by the CIA, to make "trouble" for Russia. Same as we helped "terrorists" in Afghanistan, as long as they were anti-Soviet. Seems kindof stupid policy.]

Djhokar is being CHARGED WITH having "weapons of mass destruction". [!!!] The definition is so broad, it covers almost everything! That is how the US Justice Dept has TWEAKED the definition! NOT what you think - THEIR definition covers almost everything! Another part of the RAILROADING. The Boston bomb, whoever set it, did LESS DAMAGE THAN THE TYPICAL MARKETPLACE BOMB in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon... those places. WE think WMDs are things like Atomic Bombs or Biological Warfare. Not the definition of US Justice Dept.!

Anyway, there is NO HARD EVIDENCE that Djhokar had EITHER a "weapon of mass destruction", OR the bomb that killed people in Boston. About his brother, I'm not so sure - but Tamerlan is DEAD. At most, Djhokar is an "accessory" - but THAT IS NOT WHAT HE IS BEING CHARGED WITH.
The FBI was involved in 30 or more FAKE BOMBINGS. {As of when the MJ article was written.}
In Boston, apparently, there was one REAL bomb that killed and maimed people; one SMOKE BOMB that went off; and SEVERAL UNEXPLODED BOMBS found along the route after the "real" ones went off!
But, one thing for certain - NOT ALL THOSE BOMBS could have been laid by the two brothers!
[There may have been DIFFERENT GROUPS WORKING AT CROSS-PURPOSES with each other - is ONE conclusion I've come to!] [ONE of those groups, could have been the FBI.....] [COULD HAVE BEEN. Again, read the Mother Jones article, it won a Pulitzer prize by the way, it's suggestive.....]
Anyway, having made, as few people are yet aware, AN ABSURD CHARGE against Djhokar -
possession of a "Weapon of Mass Destruction", that is -
the "Justice Dept" [THAT'S "ironic"!] now is DESPERATE FOR A CONVICTION - that on any EVIDENCE, is IMPOSSIBLE.
They hope to #1, STIR UP PUBLIC OPINION TO A FRENZY {i.e. to manufacture a LYNCH MOB};
and, #2, to FORCE SOME SORT OF A CONFESSION BY HOOK OR BY CROOK. Since they, believe me, count on it, see if this is true - they HAVE NOTHING EXCEPT A "CONFESSION" THAT WOULD CONVICT. Nothing. If they HAD, we'd know about it by now!!!!!
I am not saying there WAS a "surrogate" - I am merely raising the POSSIBILITY. After all, WE KNOW THEY HAD SURROGATES FOR OSAMA BIN LADIN. We KNOW that. There have been other surrogates, too.
So, WE KNOW THIS IS POSSIBLE. And, I do think they are quite CAPABLE of it.
I am just suggesting this - the Justice Dept will be FULL OF TRICKS, and that won't be the ONLY one.
If they HAD AN ACTUAL CASE, they wouldn't have to resort to B.S.!!!

Also, if, as appears quite probable, the FBI IS involved in any way, shape or form - as they are when they RECRUIT FAKE TERRORISTS, as in the MJ article - if so, the FBI and Justice Dept would be DESPERATE TO COVER THAT UP, TOO, if their plans went awry and there were actual deaths - or if their plans DIDN'T go awry and there were actual deaths!
Thank you, Cathleen, and I do welcome different points-of-view on this.

Dieter R (10)
Monday November 11, 2013, 1:47 pm
This is an interesting report on this issue:

Yvonne White (229)
Monday November 11, 2013, 1:56 pm
We all know that Truth doesn't matter when a Gov. Agency needs to promote it's agenda. After 9/11 nothing surprises me - it ALL sickens me, but no surprise.
The thing we are continually asked to do is Forget about Truth, Justice, & the American way..are you gonna believe your own eyes, or whatever "truth" the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. DECIDE you should believe?

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Monday November 11, 2013, 2:13 pm
Notice that the "Possession of a Weapon of Mass Destruction" charge - and that WMD, by the Justice Dept's absurdly BROAD definition, could be ANYTHING, "like even a box-cutter!" [Tom Hartman]...

That ABSURD CHARGE, it BEGS THE QUESTION... for example, they're not charging "Terrorism", as it can't be shown Djhokar is part of any terrorist group...
and they're not charging "Murder", as it can't be shown that Djhokar ACTUALLY KILLED ANYONE...
"possession" can mean he had a pocket-knife, apparently.... if he "intended" to use it as a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.......
They have really painted themselves into a corner here!
REAL JUSTICE WOULD DEMAND DJHOKAR BE FREED, if they can't come up with something BETTER than that!

Cathleen K (73)
Monday November 11, 2013, 4:15 pm
Barbara: I'm well aware of the absurd things the FBI has been doing to entrap "terrorists" since 9/11. These maneuvers seem to be particularly effective when deployed against former convicts with jail house conversions to Islam and decidedly sub normal IQs, like that crew up in Kingston, NY or those clowns in FLA. That's part of what I was referring to when I said there were plenty of REAL things the government was doing that we should be focused on instead of inventing things they didn't do. That doesn't mean that everyone the FBI catches is innocent, either. Of course law enforcement of all stripes practices catch and release with low level drug dealers. It's pretty standard methodology of how to infiltrate organized criminal gangs, whether the Mob, the Klan, MS13 or a terrorist group. It goes back at least as far as Sir Robert Peel and the beginnings of London's Metropolitan Police Force. Sheesh.

The family are indeed an interesting, unsavory and untrustworthy bunch. I'm not familiar with the aunt, but I wouldn't believe it if the mother or Uncle Ruslan said the sky was blue. The father seemed to be a guy on the verge of a nervous breakdown in that interview. I want to know the details of what happened between US and Russian intelligence re Tamarlan, but of course, we never will, so we're left with them pointing fingers at each other saying "You dropped the ball!". Please document why you think the US is running terrorist training camps in the Caucasus, because I have never seen anything the least bit convincing to that effect and know how enormously counterproductive to US interests it would be; quite frankly, it's Alex Jones crazy again. That is VERY different from what we did in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion. That was SOP during the Cold War, and was done quite openly. It was in the news. I remember it quite clearly because I was an Army officer at the time and when my friends and I discussed it, we were sure that it would come back to bite us, personally, in the ass in the future. That whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' nonsense always works out this way, and it's the military that ends up paying the ultimate price.

Of course Dzhokar is charged with having WMDs. What the HELL do you think a bomb is? You admit that Tamarlan seems to probably have been involved in planting a bomb that killed and maimed many Americans, but you want to charge Dzhokar as an accessory? That's not the way the law works with bombs, because IT CAN'T. Bombs are planted by people, singly or in groups, who then walk away before it goes boom. If you are a member of the group who planted or built it, you're a bomber. There are no accessories, the way there may be in bank robberies, for instance. The guy who drives the get away car can be charged either as a bank robber (since he's clearly part of the operation) or as an accessory (if he cuts a deal to rat the others out). If I rob Tiffany's and then fence the goods with you, you may be charged as an accessory after the fact to my robbery charge, as well as with your own charges of dealing in stolen goods. Are you getting how this works? As for hard evidence, those surveillance videos from Lord and Taylor look pretty good to me. I'll wait for them to present their case in court before I pass judgment. I'll bet there's a lot more than the videos, but we won't hear it until they go to court. You know what's ABSURD? - that you'd think that the prosecution would share it's case with the public, and a little scary. They don't need a confession, hon. If they had a confession, they wouldn't need to go to court, except for the allocution. My step dad was a lawyer, but I thought 'Law and Order' had done a decent job of educating the American public as to how our legal system actually works. I guess I was wrong. If you are one of those folks who thinks commercial television is beneath them, I hate to tell you, but in this instance, a familiarity with it could have saved you a LOT of time, trouble and anxiety.

As to the multiplicity of bombs, what makes you think that they could not have planted them all? Bombs usually have timers, so you run around town, using Boston's excellent public transportation system, and drop them off. There are huge crowds all along the route, making an intense police presence everywhere impossible. The only place you'd have to be careful was right at the end, at the reviewing stand; where they are visible at just the right time, in just the right place, to have planted the killer. Multiple bombs, especially one timed to go off a few minutes after the initial blast so you can hit the first responders, are de regueur in those Jihadi 'how to' videos. These guys were not sophisticated or very bright, fortunately, or the bombs would have been much larger and much more reliable. Had they known what the hell they were doing, they'd have bought 100 lbs of black powder in NH instead of fireworks. I learned that in Mother Jones, a magazine I've subscribed to for years and where I'm a regular in the comments section. Of course, the possibility of bizarre coincidences should never be dismissed. I'm not one of those people who subscribes to the theory that 'there are no coincidences', so it's entirely possible, though bloody unlikely, that one or more of the duds along the route could have been planted by another angry Muslim or a white supremacist protesting Mass's gun laws. One thing I can guarantee you is that they weren't planted by any disaffected IRA men - our bombs work (we use Semtex and Plastique - gun powder is for amateurs), and Boston is our city ;-) Calm down, educate yourself about the legal system and build no case on anything coming from anyone named Tsarnaev. They have a very good reason to lie.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Monday November 11, 2013, 10:35 pm
Cathleen: I don't want to get all paranoid and Alex Jones-y; AND I don't believe crap the govt puts out about "terrorism" EITHER. One just has to keep asking the questions, and not taking the govt's word for it. Or some blogger on the Internet's word, either. Gotta THINK.
About 9/11, obviously we can't get into that here, but Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth has some pretty good info on their websites.
The govt LIED to us about the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and so much else! Having a "Reichstag Fire" kind of thing is a pretty standard way to move Public Opinion towards wars...
We'd NEVER have invaded Iraq, Afghanistan - Syria, Libya, Iran if that happens, etc. etc. - without 9/11. TOO, too "convenient". But, this is not going to be "settled" HERE.

Neither is the Tsarnaev thing. The US Justice Dept is not above BREAKING THE SUPPOSED RULES.
I am pointing out what COULD happen. In my estimation. Based on what I hear SO FAR.
I think the govt's case against Djhokar is going to be HIGHLY PREJUDICED.
I think the govt IS COVERING A LOT UP.
There IS the way they assassinated that young man in Florida, who knew "something".
I think the govt is sorry they didn't manage to kill BOTH brothers. I think the govt has reason to be AFRAID of something these brothers KNOW. This is just my Sherlock-Holmes-type deductive reasoning!

I think there was FBI involvement, somehow, in the bombing, I have theories and ideas but nothing "set in stone". Sure, I could be wrong. But, everything just screams to me, that SOMETHING SMELLS.
I think it's highly unlikely that Djhokar will receive anything like a Fair Trial, OR that any Truth will come out of it!
IF there's FBI involvement - it sure looks like that - then the govt has TOO MUCH TO LOSE... It might explode their whole "Be afraid, be VERY afraid of Terrorism!" thing that the govt is using to DESTROY OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES...!!!

I don't want Djhokar, guilty or not, to be LYNCHED in effect, by a kangaroo court proceeding!
I think all Civil Libertarians ought to be WATCHING OUT for what happens!
I think the charges of "possession of WMDs" - Weapons of Mass Destruction - usually meaning something like an Atom or Hydrogen Bomb or Biological or Chemical Warfare that can DESTROY A WHOLE CITY - I think those charges against Djhokar ARE ABSURD. And EXAGGERATED, to say the least! Yeah, fireworks rockets are WMDs...
I have no idea if they're using a "double" for Djhokar. I merely say, WATCH OUT. They are capable of "dirty tricks", we know. And we can't say, Oh, no, this doesn't happen with OBAMA - now, can we? Even if we once voted for him, expecting better.....

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Monday November 11, 2013, 11:08 pm
My theory about FBI involvement:
When I was reading the Mother Jones article back in November 2011, on how there were about 30 instances of the FBI inveigling young {and stupid!} Muslim men into agreeing to acts of Terrorism, with the FBI Agent doing the suggesting and encouraging AND supplying the Bombs themselves - bombs which inevitably turned out to be DUDS, so that "the Public was never in any danger!" -
When I read about all those incidents, ONE AFTER ANOTHER, the thot then occurred to me, "Geez! Don't these guys ever read the papers! You'd think after the first few times, they'd CATCH ON!"
[Somebody comes up to you or me, saying "Let's bomb something", we'd know immediately now it was a Sting Operation...!]

Well, maybe somebody DID finally catch on - and that could have been Tamerlan Tsarnaev..
And, instead of letting the Feds buy the bomb-making materials, he bought his OWN... thus creating a REAL bomb, not a dud... [altho a small, but still deadly one, as fireworks can be deadly...]
The thot occurred to me also, that maybe the drug dealers that were killed, possibly by Tamerlan and his Florida friend who was also a Chechen, were the liaisons with the FBI contacts - Chechens come from a REVENGE culture. They have a very bloody - and cruel - history. And Tamerlan identified a lot with that culture... didn't quite become "acclimatized" here...
This is just my SPECULATION. I didn't read it anywhere, it's all mine!
But, it sortof fits what we know of the FBI, drugs, and Chechens - what I've read about them, anyway.
[The Feds recruit in the Drug Culture, for SNITCHES - and Snitches are in danger if discovered! The Death Scene was a Ritual Display, very bloody and with money and marijuana strewn over the bodies, so it wasn't a robbery! Don't want to stereotype, but Chechens DO have a reputation for cruelty - much cruelty has been perpetrated on THEM in their tragic history!]
However, the Police never really investigated the murder - which took place close to a college campus! [no doubt, the Drug Dealers for the college crowd!] - maybe because the Feds, STOPPED THEM? because uncomfortable things would necessarily come out?
This is ALL MY OWN SPECULATION, I didn't get it from some crazy website. In any case, SOMETHING isn't quite right - whether I'm hitting the mark, or not!
I tell you, the Real Truth is NEVER going to come out. So my story is as good as any, it covers a lot of the bases altho not ALL of them. But no story will be allowed to come out that will hit MORE bases than mine...
And that is a SAD COMMENTARY...

Cathleen K (73)
Monday November 11, 2013, 11:34 pm
Barbara, you are a mass of quivering id who wants emotional satisfaction to assuage your anxieties, but life doesn't work that way on this planet. Sorry, but you don't get to define WMDs, and frankly, if you want a bomb that did the kind of damage the one in Boston did to be classified as something else because one of the bombers was a hottie, you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, vote or drive. I'm a liberal Democrat who drove down to NC from NY to protest the changes on voter ID, but I'd bar you on the same basis that I'd bar an 8th grader or a lunatic.

You're pointing out what could happen, in your estimation, based on what you hear, so far? I'm pointing out that you're a dotty old lady who is shockingly, embarrassingly ignorant about the country and the planet on which you live, and about the species you claim to be a member of and about which you profess such concern. Hey, here's a new theory! You're an alien from outer space. I have every bit as much evidence for my speculation as you do for yours. Everything SCREAMS to you that something is wrong? First off, your 'everything' has been broken down to the pile of ridiculous shit it is by me, which is why you've begged off specifics. Never mind second off. Do us all a favor and find a 'Law and Order' marathon. Watch it for a few days. At the end of it, you'll feel differently about your judicial speculations. Your paranoia will decrease exponentially. Honest to God, Barbara. You're not an idiot. How in the hell did you get so bad at examining and evaluating factual information? Is this new? Have you seen a neurologist? I would were I you.

roxy H (350)
Monday November 11, 2013, 11:46 pm
ok, first off. Let me SLAP the person above me... OMG! why do I always get the haters around when I finally get to post something? UGHHH you know I can not control myself very well around these pos humans? GEEESH B! why do you bring them out of the ground? PUT THEM AWAY!!! sighhhhh!!!!! ok trying to control my emotions! be right back with my troll bat!

roxy H (350)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 12:08 am
ok, needed to make coffee before I got one of those care2 bans that removes my comments. Ugh, I tend to get radical when people are attacking my friends, take that as a warning, B is a friend of mine as are many of the people on this site.. and this wolf likes to bite! GRRRRR! ok... now sweet B, as I want to remind you. Remember one of my screwy messages to you, about the people I run around with? Moccosins on the ground? We are all over the place in strange corners of the world? Well did you watch the Boston Marathon? During the race, Before the final lap???

REMINDER: my friends were posting on the websites and on twitter : Warning! There is Boston Bomb Squad having procedures in the area! and they were asking why in the world would they be holding bomb squad stuff the day of the marathon??? OK! Then there was a fire reported in the JFK Library! does anyone remember this? 3 minutes BEFORE THE END OF THE MARATHON!!! BEFORE THE END!!! hello??? ... all of a sudden a bomb goes off at the finish line and the "rest is history" ... then the kid gets shot in florida to make matters even more creepy. But go to the beginning, the bomb squad, and the fire at the library!

roxy H (350)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 12:09 am
We have this all on tape, twitter, recorded, posted on news stations. ( ya sugar cube)

roxy H (350)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 12:13 am
So to the person who drove to where-ever. I guess those Bombs you were protesting, were from the Boston Bomb Squad! Tell them to confess! Dirty rotten Liars! Trying to cover their own rotten mess!

roxy H (350)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 12:15 am
oh, guess it was protesting voter id, it bored me so much I couldn't get past the first few words... sorry for not paying attention!

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 2:04 am
Okay, I know this rouses strong emotions.
There are a lot of NUTS posting on various websites; they just confuse things.
Some might be govt DIS-information people, wanting to make ANY questioners identify with the "conspiracy nuts"!
We live in WEIRD TIMES.
I know the issue of 9/11 for example, SHAKES UP EVERYTHING WE THOUGHT WE KNEW ABOUT THE WORLD. It is real hard to swallow. But you have to go where exposed facts lead you, uncomfortable tho it might be.
Also, for example, Naomi Klein's book "The Shock Doctrine", impacted a lot of peoples' view of their "secure, sane" world up to then.
One just can't go here into ALL the ANOMALIES of the Boston Bombings. Just too many things don't "fit". And all the stories keep changing - how Tamerlan died, for example. And that guy in Florida - he was worried that "something was going to happen to him" - why? Oh, and the Kennedy assassination - there was another thing where you couldn't believe what was in the papers. This has been going on for a while. We live in a weird world.
We do have to question, and some of the questioners will make mistakes, and some of the questions will NEVER be solved. To anyone's satisfaction.
All I know is this - after the end of the Cold War, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the govt needed a NEW "ENEMY" that seemed plausibly dangerous. Like the govt in the novel, "1984".
They decided to make an "enemy" out of Muslims.
It is NONSENSE that Muslims "hate us for our freedoms"!
If we'd left them alone, they'd have left US alone. We CREATED the "Muslim threat". We INVADED THEIR COUNTRIES, so NATURALLY they shot at us and bombed us - in their countries!
The govt used that created "threat" as an EXCUSE to WHITTLE AWAY AT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES. And create the SURVEILLANCE STATE we have now.
To keep us SCARED AND SUBMISSIVE. Oooh, there's a terrorist under my bed!
If you don't SHARE THESE PREMISES to some extent at least, then there is no further basis of conversation, really.

I really believe, that if the TRUTH EVER COMES OUT about the Boston Bombings, it will BLOW THE WHOLE LID OFF of the Facade, the Theater, the Drama, of the U.S. "War on Terror" at home.
Terrorist bombings make SENSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Where there is a POLITICAL REASON, a Political Objective, reprehensible as that may be.
IRA Bombings made SENSE WHERE THE IRA WAS. In Ireland.
You didn't have IRA bombings in Seattle, or in Miami!
I rather think that maybe ALL "Muslim terrorist attacks" in the U.S., were inspired by the FBI!
Including Tamerlan's!
Maybe he was a tough, mean sonofabitch who maybe turned against his FBI "handlers"???
Did his own "revenge" bombing?
Just a THEORY I have, mind you. I have a wild imagination. This is my THEORY. Not set in stone.
It's MORE BELIEVABLE than the govt story - doesn't necessarily mean it's true, tho.

Tamerlan was not a member of any "terrorist organization" but acted strictly on his own.
His brother, in my opinion, was guilty merely of tagging along with his brother in Boston. The two of them weren't an "organization". The guy in Florida knew about, and maybe helped, the murder - helping a fellow-Chechen. Was "revenge" rather than "terrorist" or "political". Chechen culture is like that. Again, not "al-Qaeda" bullshit.
The "war on terror" has so pervaded our lives, that it's hard to swallow, that it's a COMPLETELY PHONEY FABRICATION FROM FIRST TO LAST.....

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 2:42 am
Furthermore, given that the "War on Terror" is a PHONEY,
I frankly don't think it is POSSIBLE for an "accused Terrorist" to receive a Fair Trial in this country, under these conditions.
I don't think "accused Terrorists" who HAVE been tried, have received "Fair Trials".
I don't want to go into details here. This is getting very long. Nobody will read it!
But I think, if you look up their Trials...
So, I don't think there's the chance of a snowball in Hell, that Djhokar's trial will be fair and HONEST and that Justice will be served...
Even if the trials modelled on TV, are all right and proper and good...
I think the govt has a "different standard" for "Terrorists". The govt has the General Public so SCARED, that they don't notice the INjustice.....
Because, I guess, Djhokar is a "hottie", he has a Website proclaiming his INNOCENCE - lots of Young People seem to agree with that. It would sure screw up the govt's plans, if Djhokar turned out to be a cultural
HERO instead of the Mad-Dog-Villain the govt wants to paint him as!

In my first posting, I gave SEVERAL alternatives as to what might happen or be happening. All GUESSES.
But, based on trials of previous hapless "terrorists", some of whom had obviously been TORTURED and had their MINDS MESSED WITH - I am not crazy to think that something of the sort might be practiced on Djhokar...
Of course, the Public just says, well, the bastards DESERVED it...
There may be more support for Djhokar, however, because of his circumstances...

Chris W (79)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 3:02 pm
lol wicked, how come Sierra gets her postings tracked, followed and removed and the trolls can continue to troll? Sad world we are in. BMutiny, continue on the path! Your opening the right door!

Chris W (79)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 3:03 pm
SNAP-0 it's now Barbara! Now THAT'S the real mutiny!

Cathleen K (73)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 3:09 pm
You're right; this is getting too long, and you have a wild imagination. Re trials of terrorists, we've had very few of them actually, Barbara, and THAT is a big problem. It's why we can't close Gitmo - you can't try people under our criminal code (or under the UCMJ) using information you acquired via torture. That's a good thing, from a philosophical point of view, even if it is causing us logistical problems at the moment. Are you saying that the Blind Sheik didn't get a fair trial after the first WTC bombing? If you're talking about the people entrapped by the FBI, your problem is with law enforcement and the law itself, not the courts. There are limits on what law enforcement can do to entrap individuals into unlawful activity. The FBI knows what those limits are and doesn't cross them, so when they go to court, juries don't have a lot of choices. The question posed to jurors always boil down to: this is the law; did this individual break it? In these entrapment cases, the answer is going to be 'yes', since the individual in question was set up to break the law while under surveillance. If you are arguing that we need to greatly increase the limits we place on law enforcement vis a vis how they can manipulate people, or aid those with a desire to do so, into breaking the law, you and I will be in agreement, but if you're still contending that the problem is in the courts, ask yourself why the only terrorism suspect to argue before the SCOTUS won. His opponent, the government, lost. This is not hairsplitting. These are two different problems with entirely different solutions, and when you scream about kangaroo courts and unfair trials to someone with a good memory and an eye for detail, you make a fool of yourself.

I'm not going to go down the Kennedy Assassination rabbit hole, or we'd be there for days. Let me just tell you that I worked at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, TX, for years. I knew a lot of people who were in the ER that day. I knew the neurologist who pronounced the president and people who saw Ruby in the hallway (when he may have planted the 'magic bullet'). I knew people who worked on Oswald two days later, and others who cared for Ruby at the end. My boss's brother was a cop with the Dallas PD and he knew Ruby well. He described him as a colorful guy who knew everybody in town, a mobster who was also a paid informant (something kind of unusual in those days, if you'll recall). Lyndon Johnson said "I never believed that Oswald acted alone, though I can accept that he pulled the trigger." - I agree with that assessment. The shots themselves were not miraculous, btw; Oswald was a good enough shot to have made them with that rifle. If you're ever in Dallas, go to The Sixth Floor exhibit; it's fascinating and evocative, but if you're a decent shot yourself, standing at that window and looking down, you'll be forced to admit that with a little luck, you could have pulled it off too. Johnson speculated that the Cubans were behind it, as revenge for our attempts against Castro and the "Murder Incorporated" the CIA was running in the Caribbean. RFK Jr. (with whom I was friends in high school) thought the mob, furious at his father as AG, was behind it. I like both of them working together. The mob had a huge presence in Cuba prior to the Revolution, after all. I don't buy the Johnson involvement, personally, though I understand the reasons for it. JFK and LBJ loathed each other heading into the WH, but then a funny thing happened. They found out that their respective strengths and weaknesses were complimentary. JFK was primarily interested in, and knowledgeable about, international affairs, while LBJ was a master of domestic policy and politics. Together, they made a damned good president, and they both knew it; both were genuinely, and primarily, motivated by a desire to do good for the country and the world, quaint as that may seem in this political moment! I'm also fully cognizant of the fact that a big part of my problem with the conclusion that Oswald acted alone is emotional. I don't want one fame seeking, lone nut job to have killed the President of the United States, and that shapes my view of things. I admit I could be wrong, easily. I have no trouble accepting that the guy who killed McKinley was a random anarchist who got lucky or that John Wilkes Booth pulled off the Lincoln assassination with a little help from his friends, none of whom were important or powerful. I remember Kennedy and that awful day, and I don't want a little worm like Oswald to have killed our handsome, charming Jack, the first Irish Catholic POTUS (as you can imagine, he was big in our house). It's not fair. I WANT him to have died for big, complex reasons, at the hands of big, complex forces, and that compromises my objectivity.

"All I know is this - after the end of the Cold War, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the government needed a NEW "ENEMY" that seemed plausibly dangerous. Like the govt in the novel, "1984". That sentence sums up your theory nicely, but it just doesn't fit the facts. Do you remember the 90s, Barbara? I do. I remember much triumphalism in the west. Global communism had been defeated. Sure, China was still, technically, a communist country, but they'd never really tried to push it in a geopotical sense the way the Soviets did, not even in Korea and Vietnam, where they were basically trying to enforce their own version of the Monroe Doctrine. They were pursuing economic development in a way that our power elites saw as quite useful to themselves, and with a decidedly free market flavor, so China was not viewed as part of the now defunct 'red menace'. Indeed, western governments, from DC to Helsinki, were very busy patting themselves on the back and dictating to the now defeated foe how they must reform themselves, lecturing them about their numerous failings and offering to teach them how to wipe their own asses, all the while declaring that the world was now safe for democracy and free markets. It drove me ABSOLUTELY crazy. I know Russians, having lived with one and been involved with his larger community, and know Russian history, and knew that we were setting the table not for democracy, but for an oligarchic strongman, hostile to the west. I'm just grateful that it turned out to be Putin, who is smart and sane. We could have easily ended up with someone like Zhirinovsky.

Western elites were not looking for a new enemy at all. They honestly thought we were heading for a globalized world where nations cooperated for the most part and where growing prosperity would tame the savages in the hinterlands. Never forget that most of the 'free market rah rah' crowd believe their own fairy tales. They didn't have a clue that some of those savages could pose a realistic threat, a mindset necessary to make one think that arming and training the mujahedin in the mountains of Afghanistan to fight the Soviets was a good idea. You posit that 9/11 happened so we COULD invade Afghanistan. Why in the world would you think that we'd *want* to do such a thing? It's a backwards hell hole composed of warring tribes, appropriately nicknamed 'the graveyard of empires'. Alexander the Great conquered it not by force of arms but by clever political manoevering and a strategic marriage - his Roxanne was an Afghan princess. The Mughals failed to tame the place, despite sharing Islam, the Brits failed, and the Soviets (who were there to prop up a satellite communist government) failed. There's no oil, and no one knew about the rare earth minerals that the Chinese are now mining when we went in after bin Laden. So WHY did the government want this dump? Halliburton, et al, can make money wherever we wage war, so why not invade some place that has something to offer, even if it's just a useful port or an educated work force? Unless you can give me an answer to that question, you've got nothing.

There was no grand plan here, Barbara. We'd be in better shape if there had been one. Dick Cheney went into hiding for months after 9/11 because he was shitting his pants. He did not know where the next attack might come from any more than you or me. The Clinton admin warned the incoming Bushies about the very real dangers posed by AQ, which they had learned the hard way. They were laughed out of the building. Richard Clark was demoted, and they ignored all the threat assessments coming in from FBI field offices about Arab trainees in flight schools who didn't want to learn how to land planes. 9/11 was not a government plot and it only succeeded because of governmental ignorance, laziness and stupidity at the very highest levels. The invasion of Iraq was a total fabrication concocted by people who had a personal ax to grind with Saddam Hussein and who wanted to take over the country's vast oil fields, but were too incompetent to realize that they needed to learn something about the country to have a prayer of success. They didn't even understand the Shia Sunni divide that's fracturing this particular 'tribes with flags' made up country. To recap, these masterminds and the commercial interests they represent aren't mining Afghanistan's only valuable asset, and they don't control Iraq's oil fields. If you think this was some kind of a grand plan to take away your civil liberties, you're not operating in the realm of the real.


Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 8:29 pm
Chris - It's a very unfortunate fact, that when I sign Care2 Petitions, I of course sign with my REAL name - not BMutiny! - and, unfortunately and INCONVENIENTLY, then Care2 STAYS with that "real" name, unless I go to my Page and change it back to BMutiny! And, sometimes when I do this, it still doesn't change back - I have to try again!
It makes me not want to sign Care2 Petitions sometimes... but, then I do it anyway and then I have to go thru all this rigmarole! You'd think Care2 techies could figure out a way to have us sign Petitions with our real, legal names - and STILL keep our Care2 names! This has bothered other people too.
Anyway, THAT'S the reason that "Barbara" appears sometimes - I'm either in the process of signing a Care2 Petition, or Care2 hasn't changed me back to "BMutiny"! [Sometimes I'll go for a while without knowing it hasn't changed my name back.....]

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 9:13 pm
Cathleen: You're right this is going on very long - but, anyone who DOES read this, what an EDUCATION they can be getting! Your points-of-view and your Information are things people SHOULD be exposed to, and are valuable!

Couple of things:
1] Let's let go of the Ageism, and the ad hominem statements. Here on "enlightened" Care2, that sort of thing will bounce back and bite you in the butt. Such things detract from your arguments, rather than add to them.

2]About "we didn't know about the Rare Earths in Afghanistan" - I beg to differ on that.
My source is an article a few years ago, in Scientific American. I'd have it in my {paper!} files, but my files are a mess. But you can look up Scientific American. We had maps, etc. that are shown in that magazine article. Was fascinating! and astonishing! I am sure it can be looked up. It was a major long article in Scientific American. Sorry I don't have the date.
AHA! found a reference in my files! {Somewhere, I also have a copy of the article itself.}
The issue is Scientific American October 2011. Title is "Afghanistan's Buried Riches", by Sarah Simpson.
Quote: "Reveals a startling account of the collaboration between the U.S. Army and the U.S. Geological Survey in that war-torn country... For SEVEN YEARS 50 USGS geologists have been ferried around in Black Hawk helicopters along with their personal military escorts. Often the scientists land for only one hour, surrounded by armed troops in areas that could erupt into firefights at any time.... These scientists and the Pentagon have covered the country and mapped an amazing array of rich mineral deposits.... In one area the USGS has identified deposits of rare earth minerals that could supply the world's demand for 10 years at a value estimated at $7.4 billion. The Pentagon figures that same site has an additional $82 billion worth of other important minerals."
"Perhaps the most startling revelation is that the USGS was given the go-ahead to survey Afghanistan ONLY THREE WEEKS AFTER THE SEPT. 11 ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER." The article states candidly, "The 2001 U.S. invasion opened the door."
I'll let you read the rest. This is SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, October 2011 - not some marginal rag!

Of course, there is an IRONY in this.
That is, that after the USGS made the maps - hard to keep such stuff secret, these days! - it's CHINA that's TAKING ADVANTAGE of mining the Rare Earths and Minerals!
For TWO reasons, I think -
For one, the AFGHANS HATE US FOR INVADING THEIR COUNTRY. So, they'd RATHER trade with the Chinese, and give THEM the concessions - and WE CAN'T STOP THEM FROM DOING SO!

For the second reason, in case anybody hasn't been asleep-at-the-switch for the last couple years - the CHINESE ECONOMY IS BECOMING MUCH STRONGER THAN OURS. We BORROW money from the Chinese, to PAY FOR OUR MILITARY EXPENDITURES!!!!!
{Will somebody please tell me the RATIONALE for that? or is there NONE!!!}. In other words, because of the Black Hole of our Military sucking everything into it - and our factories moving to China, etc. - CHINA IN EFFECT, OWNS US NOW. And, they can CALL IN THE DEBT and make our markets CRASH, ANY TIME THEY WANT TO...
This is known as "DEFENSE" Spending by our Military, to supposedly "protect" us, from.....???
So, in other words, CHINA is exploiting the Mineral Wealth - hey, thanks for the exploration and the maps, guys! - because THEY ARE IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION TO DO SO, ECONOMICALLY...
As well as having the Afghans' Good Will, which we will NEVER have, now...!

Stuff you don't get in the daily media, of course, and who reads Scientific American but a buncha nerds...

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Tuesday November 12, 2013, 10:20 pm
Cathleen: Interesting that you worked in Parkland Memorial Hospital and had an Insider's point-of-view.
I also have an "Insider's" view and inside INFORMATION that I gladly share, and have had published, about the Kennedy assassination. [Since we're "going down that rabbit hole" anyway.]

At the time of the Kennedy assassination, and for some years before that, I was the Seattle head {"chairperson"} of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee {FPCC} - the SAME group that Lee Harvey Oswald was a "member" of, in New Orleans. As has been published repeatedly. [He seems to have been the ONLY member in that city.]
I have been interviewed about this, for a major book on Kennedy, "JFK and the Unspeakable", by James Douglass. My interview and information is mentioned in a Footnote, on page 404, where I am named.
[I have sometimes thought about publishing something on my own, separately, but seem never to get around to writing it...beyond a chapter or so!!]
Anyway, you can get the book at the library and look up what I said. It's a long Footnote.

I can testify to my absolutely CERTAIN knowledge, that at the time of the Kennedy assassination, the Fair Play for Cuba Committee WAS NOT ITS FORMER SELF, BUT HAD BECOME A CIA FRONT.
I saw "my" organization "taken over" and taken away from me, and was unable to prevent that. At the time of the Kennedy assassination, in Seattle the group was virtually nothing and we hadn't had a meeting for months. The first thing I did when I heard of the assassination, and Oswald's supposed "connection", was immediately BURN ALL PAPERS WITH ANYONE'S NAME ON THEM. I hadn't realized the implications of being "taken over".... seems stupid, now, that I waited that long to react!
Anyway, Lee Harvey Oswald being in the FPCC at that late date, means that he was DEFINITELY CIA.

I believe the assassination was a combination of Mafia {missing their gambling privileges under Cuban Dictator Batista}, Cuban EXILES {ANTI-Castro - they HATED Kennedy for "letting them down" at the Bay of Pigs!} - and "rogue elements" in the government, not necessarily LBJ, there were plenty of people "in high places" who hated Kennedy and expressed themselves GLAD he was dead. James Douglass in his book, says it was because Kennedy wanted to DE-escalate in Viet Nam...

Anyway, the reason the CIA placed Oswald in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, was to IMPLICATE the LEFT, and turn the heat AWAY FROM the Right-wing Anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, and, hey, maybe even finally DESTROY THE LEFT as even Joe McCarthy hadn't quite been able to do!
Fortunately for ME, that didn't happen, and I thank the Warren Commission for that, they LIED, of COURSE they did, in saying there was a "lone gunman" - but, they didn't drag the Left and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee into it - they weren't ready to challenge the powerful people in govt, in power now, and say THEY had a hand in it. So, the "lone gunman" theory was IT. Easy to disprove, of course.

By the way, I think I can assure everyone that neither Castro, nor the American Left, nor the FPCC members, nor I, had the slightest interest in, or saw any advantage in, assassinating a President...
This was largely a HATE CRIME, pure and simple - as well as a grab for power... a COUP d'ETAT. We have been living with the political results ever since. In effect, it was a Palace Revolution...
[I really ought to write something about this, and my own experience!]

So, I am not a politically naive person.... my ideas are "radical", that is, they are quite different from the way we were all brought up to think... but these are "radical" times.
I suggest digging deeper... We are experiencing one "Shock and Awe" after another [see Naomi Klein's INVALUABLE book, "The Shock Doctrine"]. The Kennedy Assassination was maybe Shock #1. These successive shocks are supposed to leave us NUMB, AND OPEN TO SUGGESTION {from the Media, of course!}. There ARE attempts to "get at" us, by rousing basic emotions of Fear, and Hate, and Rage... and especially, FEAR. That short-circuits thought-processes...


Cathleen K (73)
Wednesday November 13, 2013, 1:11 am
It wasn't ageism, it was sarcasm - dripping at Niagra levels. I don't care what people who aren't bright enough to get jokes think of me You were caps locked SCREAMING about your feelings and hunches, and making ludicrous assertions, which I'd swat down with factual counterposts, and I'd get zip in response. Your original mailer was an assertion that the guy who showed up in court to plead 'not guilty' was not Dzhokar Tsarnaev, because he said two words with a 'Russian accent' and had a swollen face after getting shot in it, accompanied by a video that wouldn't fool anyone who wasn't (in the 19th century medical sense of the word) an IDIOT or dying to be fooled. You got 10 people, besides myself, to respond to this mass mailing, half of whom replied with a polite 'interesting, thanks' and said nothing more. How many people are there on your friends list? 455? I won this argument by popular vote before I'd even gotten started. You thought this was plausible when you posted it; I'm guessing that you no longer do after having the significance of his injuries pointed out to you, but I'm not sure, because you never bothered to mention it again. Instead, you moved on to outrage over finding out that a little bitty bomb that only killed a couple of people and maimed a few hundred was classified as a WMD and how unfair it was that this poor young man was being charged as a bomber when it was obvious that his brother was in charge. When that argument was dismantled, your focus shifted to the FBI and the courts. I addressed you at length on both of those and got no response to the specific arguments I'd raised. This last post is the ONLY one that responds to something specific I said, and only one tiny piece in a long post full of specifics. Thanks for acknowledging the value of my posts. Your responses, including your glaring silences, were making me think you were probably learning something.

I'm not in the least bit surprised that a government run by energy company people would order the USGS to get ready to survey a country they knew they were going to have to invade. Seriously, you think that's pulling a rabbit out of a hat? I honestly don't think it's all the years I spent in TX (Dallas and Austin are not really oilcentric) that lets me know that folks who've made fortunes by extracting it from the ground are going to want to look and see what's in the ground in a territory they're dumb enough to think they'll be able to control despite thousands of years of history that says otherwise. Maybe it was all those years in TX, or maybe it was all those damned psych courses I got As in. A week after 9/11, the Taliban had already told the Bushies that they could not hand over their esteemed guest, Sheik Osama, so they knew they were going to have to invade the joint, hence the exploration. Who reads the NYT but a buncha fact nerds...

Borrowing money from China to fund military adventures does seem pretty stupid, doesn't it? But remember who we are talking about here, B (do you wish to be called B?). W is not a bright guy, and despite having done time in some of the finest educational institutions in the world, he's very poorly educated and he has zero intellectual curiosity. Aside from a family vacation at Skibo Castle, he'd never been to Europe, despite all that money! Can you IMAGINE that? I sure can't. Oh, and Skibo doesn't count. It's in such a remote part of Scotland that you might as well be fishing and shooting in Montana, once you get over the fact that the ranch hands are wearing kilts and the lodge has turrets. I drove up there once from Inverness, and I'd frequently go 10 miles without seeing a person or a house. Cheney IS smart, but he doesn't appear to be well educated either. More importantly, he's mercenary, and Halliburton has done very well from all of our martial travails. Rumsfeld IS Dr Strangelove; he had theories about what could be accomplished with all of our new, high tech weapons systems and he wanted to test them in the real world. The troops, and the civilians they'd be killing, were bugs under a microscope to him. He was not interested in spending the money to effectively armor Humvees because he couldn't have cared less about what happened to the troops riding around in coffins for six. Wolfowitz, Card, and all of the lesser stars of this American Gotterdammerung all shared with their betters a deep and abiding faith in neoconservative foreign policy and it's Messianic role for an exceptional America, rushing in to free the oppressed, who would greet us as liberators and become functioning democracies overnight! You and I may laugh at the infantile idiocy of this view, but we must never underestimate how sincerely this belief is held. It's a matter of religious faith with many of these people, and will not be shaken by even the roughest collisions with reality. Supply side economics holds a similar place in their firmament, which is why no amount of budgetary damage can sway them from their cries of "Tax Cuts!". I've been a lover of medieval history since I was a kid, and it's given me a degree of insight into the medieval mind that has been enormously helpful in understanding these people. Of course, living in TX (and KY) has given me a good deal of insight into the Southern mind (and there are similarities between the two), all of which enables me to understand these people, in the anthropological sense. You'll just have to take my word for it that what strikes us as forseeable disaster was a foregone success to them. They still believe that what they did will be viewed kindly by history. Catch any of them on any of the political shows; they remain convinced that they were right.

The economics of all of this was designed by rich people to make themselves richer and their tax burdens lighter, and is a lengthy subject that I don't feel like getting into. Are you familiar with the Powell Memorandum? It got the rich to form their own union, kill our unions and create think tanks to justify it all. If you want to understand all of the gory details, I'd recommend Hacker and Pierson's 'Winner-Take-All-Politics: How Washington Made the Rich Richer and Abandoned the Middle Class'. It's quite a read. We're reaching a tipping point. Something will have to give, and soon. Median household income in the US is now 27K a year. The Bush tax cuts therefore permanently bar half of the country from paying any income taxes even before they take a single deduction. Deductions knock out large swaths of the rest of us from any obligation to pay, and those who remain are not taxed at a high enough rate to make up the shortfall. Our economy is now almost entirely based on finance and consumption, and has been for quite a while. As long as there were enough of us with enough money to keep buying shit from each other, the game of musical chairs could keep going. We're near or at the point where the music is going to stop, because so much has been sucked to the top; one guy buying a 100K wristwatch doesn't generate the same level of economic activity as 100 guys buying refrigerators.. We've been down this road before and emerged better for it in the past, but I don't rule out a French style revolution, either. Economic populism is going to emerge as the next big thing in American politics. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Sherrod Brown and some of the other Dems are already there. When I was down in Zucotti Park with OWS, I met quite a few people who'd been in on founding the Tea Party, in 2006. They'd left because of the influx of right wing crazies, stupid people and religious fanatics. They'd found what they were looking for at Occupy.

China can't call in our debt, because we'll default, rendering all of their IOU's worthless. They lent us the money so we'd be able to buy their crap, thereby maintaining political stability because the jobs really were making life better for the average Chinese. The wheels are about to come off the cart there, too. They have a housing bubble that's going to make ours look like a day at the beach, and they have a looming demographic disaster because of the one child policy that's unique in human history. All those little princlings with no women to marry and parents and grandparents to support all by themselves...Who knows how THAT will end, but I'll bet 'badly' will be the operative word.


Cathleen K (73)
Wednesday November 13, 2013, 2:49 am
OMG! I JUST saw your Kennedy post, after I wrote the one above, in which I spelled out my own version of the vast right wing economic conspiracy, and there are many intersections. I opened the message I received first and replied before looking at the second one. Next time I'll read both - though if we're going to keep this up, we should probably do it on the phone. I'm getting tired of these lengthy entries. I feel like I'm writing a term paper.

That is fascinating about the FPCC - who cam up with the name? I've always wondered, in an idle sort of way. It's never occurred to me that any American lefties were involved in the assassination, and I doubt it's occurred to many - lefties voted for him en mass. Now I understand where you're coming from, and I can sympathize. We never had that problem. So many people in law enforcement, whether NY cops, FBI or CIA are Irish Catholics that there was little enthusiasm for screwing with us. Reagan probably thought of the IRA in somewhat romantic terms, but he was definitely more interested in maintaining his relationships with Tip O'Neill and Teddy Kennedy than with Maggie Thatcher. As for Oswald being a CIA plant, it sounds possible to me. I've never understood how someone could defect to Russia at the height of the Cold War, change his mind and come back, with a Russian wife in tow no less!, without any problems.

I'm going to have to finish this later, because there are a few things I'd like to discuss, but I'm really tired now - finally. I slept like a dead thing last night for 10 hours, which is off the charts for me, so I've been sitting here writing to you when I'd normally have been long asleep and ready to wake within an hour. Later.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Thursday November 14, 2013, 12:54 am
Glad to oblige to talk about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Unlike what most Americans think {and thot}, it was NOT a "pro-Castro" organization, not primarily.
It was a COALITION, and the PURPOSE was, to get the more "liberal" or "left" elements of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY to be more favorable to the Castro Revolution in Cuba. Remember that Fidel Castro didn't start OUT to be a "Communist", he was driven there by the U.S. being against him - so he had to get closer, economically, to the Soviet Union. At the beginning, there was still hope that the Dems would influence the govt to help the Cuban Revolution against the Dictatorship of Batista. Of course, it didn't work out that way. But it was not for lack of us trying!
The really hard-core Lefties DIDN'T LIKE the FPCC, because it wasn't Left enuf, and was too "Liberal" and "Democratic-Party" oriented. Another thing most people don't "get", is, that the Left is NOT one huge Monolith of "Commies", but that different parts of the Left NEVER agree and generally hate each other WORSE than they hate the Capitalists! The Socialists, the Communists, the Socialist Workers Party, the Workers World, Progressive Labor, all these groups just couldn't get along or agree on ANYthing. There are different groups still - the Freedom Socialist Party, the Revolutionary Communist Party, and then - the Anarchists. And there are different KINDS of Anarchists, too! These guys will NEVER get it together to make Revolution...fortunately, they seem to be dying out. But not dead yet...
ANYway, I DO know how the FPCC got started, in Seattle I was one of 3 people, all living in one {run-down} apartment building near the U. of W. campus, that started it here. It was originally started in NYC, and the name came from there, as far as I know. We were a "copycat" organization and all the FPCC branches in several cities were quite independent of one another, with few ties and little communication with any "center". Before the Internet, snail mail was slow and often seemed unnecessary!

Anyway, altho I didn't invent the name, the name seemed to me JUST RIGHT! Because the Lefties weren't involved, it wasn't for example {THANK GOD!} called something like the Red Revolutionary Workers' Coalition for Cuba or some garbage like that! That would NOT have attracted the right people we wanted to attract....
"Fair Play", whatever Genius thot up that name, meant, just what it says, we wanted CUBA'S STORY TO BE TOLD, to be HEARD. "Equal Time" in the Media, for Cuba's OWN point-of-view.
"Fair Play", interestingly enuf, is a concept that can't quite be translated exactly into other languages! Approximate words can be found, but they don't have the same connotations! "Fair Play" is a uniquely English concept! [Probably comes from the British Public School System, "playing fields of Eton" and so on.] For example, the concept has a hard time being translated into SPANISH... [Cuba's language!]
Two books by C. Wright Mills, "Listen, Yankee", and "90 Miles from Home", had a great deal of influence on people like me and those in the FPCC. When it started out. They gave a favorable account of the Cuban Revolution - which has done a lot of good for its people {see Michael Moore's film "Sicko", about their EXCELLENT and world-class Health Care System, which of course never existed before, when U.S. gangsters controlled the Island's Economy}. Of course it's a dictatorship, but as dictatorships go, Batista's and the Mafia's was arguably worse... so they HAVE made progress. The U.S. doesn't WANT their story to be told...
Of course, the FPCC CEASED TO EXIST, the MOMENT that "fake member" Oswald, was implicated in shooting Kennedy... everybody dived for cover, including me...
This is a long story, and could be book-length, so I'm definitely not going to tell it here!
But, I have actually SEEN THE CIA OPERATE, up close and personal - and on more than one occasion. I can tell people - and I told people - how they went in and DESTROYED the Fair Play for Cuba Committee FROM WITHIN - joining it {as "regular members"} and then very cleverly subverting it. [Using Psychological methods to turn people against each other and against the group!] I gave James Douglass a description of what happened for his book on the Kennedy Assassination, "JFK and the Unspeakable". {I'm on page 404 of that book.}
I also saw the CIA operate WITHIN OCCUPY SEATTLE. I did the best I could, to WARN people - and so did lots of people in other cities with Occupy Movements. I put stuff out on the Internet, at that time; and I saw stuff on the Internet that other people wrote. I have actually sat at the table with an "undercover" CIA operative - that I had figured out, by that time, was an operative.
[By the way, as far as I am concerned, the CIA, the FBI, COINTELPRO, the local police depts undercover cops, the Drug Enforcement units - they all work together and might as well be considered as ONE thing, with several branches, but in my remarks I don't feel I need to differentiate usually between them...]
So, it is from my DIRECT EXPERIENCE with the CIA, COINTELPRO, FBI, whatever they're called these days, that I judge a lot of the "weird" stuff that is happening in this world today.
[Gee, I HOPE somebody is reading this besides us!]

I don't want to go over & over the Djhokar thing. I didn't say he WAS a "double" - but I wanted people to consider that he MIGHT be. There's a difference. I wanted to point out that the govt, the Feds, were CAPABLE of that - and of all SORTS of Dirty Tricks! I wanted to point out the POSSIBILITY, among others
Just like I wanted to alert the people in Occupy Seattle, of the absolute certainly, of COINTELPRO in their midst.
The Feds did succeed in destroying Occupy Seattle {and other cities} in its Occupy FORM, both from WITHIN, by subversion, by the usual clever Psy-Op tactic of turning people against each other - I saw that happen, in spite of warnings! - and by Police Force, from without -
but the IDEA of Occupy, CAN'T DIE, and is NOT dead... has just morphed into other forms!

Anyway, I don't feel a need to defend myself - I'm either understood, or mis-understood, par for the course.
I wanted, again, to alert people to the fact that THINGS AREN'T ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM, especially when Media gets hysterical about "Terrorism".
The Feds have experts at Manipulating Your Perceptions. They also have experts at Manipulating Prisoners - such as Djhokar - to behaving as they want and need them to behave. A good source on this is a series of articles by Jane - I forget her last name! - in the New Yorker magazine a couple of years ago, on TORTURE USED BY OUR GOVT, and Psychological Methods used to "Regress" prisoners. {Also in Naomi Klein's book, "The Shock Doctrine", that I mentioned.} This series of articles can be looked up. I discussed those articles at length on Care2 at the time.

I would rather, given what LITTLE we are allowed to know! - I would rather use the "could be, might be, may be" mode, rather than the "definitely IS this way", mode. I am glad that the English language makes this distinction!
I have no personal quarrel with anybody over this - my statements are here, take 'em or leave 'em.
If you want "last words" that's fine - I think it's about time to leave this discussion, for me at least.
It's gettin' kinda counter-productive, if nobody is going to have the patience to read this lengthy stuff...

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Thursday November 14, 2013, 1:38 am
Cathleen, I just thot of this. You said you were with Occupy in your City?

Were there people, was there someone, who was outrageously Sexist, turning the Women against the Men and the Men against the Women and making Occupy look Sexist and just fanning those flames?
Because THAT was one of the tactics used in Seattle Occupy. To help Occupy disintegrate from WITHIN. So they'd be less able to resist when the cops started cracking heads, making arrests, bulldozing campgrounds...
Getting people mad at each other, who should have been working together.

The other "hot issue" for Occupy, at least here, was Violence vs. Non-violence - and whether breaking windows was "violence". {It IS!} CIA or COINTELPRO operatives like to pose as "glamorous, sexy [to a teenager] bad-boy Anarchists". [Of course, being undercover cops, they get to use all the Drugs they want, with IMPUNITY - leading the IGNORANT to think they're not cops!!!]

If there was anybody like that in your city's Occupy - you have seen the CIA, FBI, "undercover" whatever, at work.
Not ALL those who follow along with the Sexism or the "Violence", are CIA. Some are just impressionable young DUPES who don't know any better! Using the wrong Role Models...
If there WASN'T anybody like that in your cities' Occupy movement - you were lucky!
It was pretty common...
A RUNDOWN of these tactics of Subversion used within Groups - is in a book that is out-of-print, occasionally but rarely available on Amazon - "War at Home" by Brian Glick. Parts of it were once on-line - don't know if that's still the case. An EXCELLENT account, should be in every Occupier's library!

Cathleen K (73)
Thursday November 14, 2013, 12:52 pm
Morning, B. 'Fair play' is actually a common expression in the UK and Ireland, and it does indeed come from sport. It certainly can be (and is) used to mean 'don't cheat'; in my personal experience, it's usually used to mean 'that's reasonable' - ie, you're having a disagreement with someone, they make a point, you make a counterpoint and they respond "fair play to you". They are conceding that your counterpoint has merit. The fact that it's an expression from the British Isles is why I'd wondered. NYC is a great deal closer to those isles than is Seattle, and we've always had a lot of people from there living here. In the 50s, that included a lot of Regular IRA men; they were communists, unwelcome in the country they'd founded because of the Cold War - I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved in the founding of FPCC. When people in the US say 'IRA' today, they are referring to the Provisional Irish Republican Army, founded in 1970 in Ulster by young men who were frustrated by the unwillingness of the IRA leadership in the Republic to arm them. Talk about infighting lefties! In the early 80s, within Provo ranks, we had a big fight between the 'Pinnies' and the 'Stickies'. I don't remember what it was about or who won; all I remember is that the name referred to whether you wore a paper (stuck on) or metal (pinned on) Easter Rebellion badge! So yeah, I'm more than familiar with the lack of unity among progressive forces.

I disagree that 'most' people don't get that the 'left' is not a 'communist' monolith, if they give it some thought. Despite the wailings of the Sarah Palins, most Americans think that calling Obama a communist is idiotic. Sister Sarah, while pushing her latest 'war on Christmas' word salad fest actually took the new Pope to task for being a lefty, presumably because he'd had the nerve to point out that Jesus had absolutely NOTHING to say about abortion or gay people, but consigned those who crapped on the poor straight to Hell. When I heard her, I said "Bless her heart" in my best Texas twang. The upcoming divorce between the American Catholic Church and the GOP just got a lot closer, and it's going to be very messy. The Democrats will get custody of a lot of those 'Reagan Democrats'. The great strength of conservatives in the modern era has been simplicity, unity and discipline in messaging. The 'Big Tent' has long been completely monolithic, while Democrats have been slaves to nuance and complexity because the base is so damned diverse. Peek inside that big tent today, though, and there's a huge food fight raging, even if the participants are virtually all white and straight.

Re CIA, FBI, COINTELPRO, etc, as I said, I understand how you feel. What I don't understand is why you seem to think that this is a new and unique threat. It's as old as human government itself. One of the lead characters in the single best known story in human history was a member of a radical group who got bought off by the establishment to betray his fellows; the group ultimately won the long game, but the leader, and his appointed successor, got crucified 2000 years ago.

Re my experiences at Occupy, I live 75 miles away from Manhattan now, so I only dragged myself in a dozen times or so, which makes me less than the best of witnesses. What I saw, and what regulars complained about, was that the camp became a magnet for the homeless and crazies. Sane homeless people were welcome; hell, they were emblems of what's happened. Unfortunately, NYC has long attracted nuts from all over the country (and the world) and they could be quite disruptive. Those images of people shitting on cars and having sex in public used to gleefully delegitimize the movement came from these people. You'll tell me that many of these people were plants. Some may have been, but I'm an RN who's spent most of her career working in big city public hospitals; I know real crazy and real dirty when I see it. A lot of rank and file NYPD were sympathetic to OWS, some even joining the protests in their off time. I was told by many of them that the orders were coming from Bloomberg, not Ray Kelly, which doesn't surprise me. Your assertion that local police work hand in glove with the FBI and the CIA is not true in NY, at all. There is cooperation when it's needed, but our cops tend to despise what they call 'the feebs'. Some of it is resentment that the feds can swoop in and grab an investigation, that they're often far too secretive with their own info while demanding access to yours, but there's a healthy dose of sheer contempt for what they view as operational incompetence, and then there's what I like to call 'the Whitey Bulger angle'. The cops I know don't like giving a pass to informants at the top; they don't believe in catch and release for prize fish.

The NYPD may be something of an anomaly, having it's own counterintelligence unit and a body that is mostly blue collar, avowedly pro union, and with a low opinion of rich people (familiarity does breed contempt), but I doubt that any police force in a city of any size is really all that fond of the feds for the reasons I've already cited. Violence was never an option for NYC's Occupy. The NYPD is too large, has too many resources and is far too good at what it does to consider trying to fight it. Asking them what they thought would happen to their pensions at the hands of WS was much more effective.

You didn't think that the Dzhokar who appeared in court was a double, merely wanted to point out that it was a possibility? Are you sure you're not an agent provocateur yourself? - because that's what they do. It's also straight from the Fox News handbook. Their motto isn't 'fair and balanced; it's 'I'm just asking a question'. You came across this ridiculous notion and this cringeworthy video, and you wanted to believe it because it conforms to your world view. You no longer believe it because you're not stupid. Good enough. In future, though, check yourself for confirmation bias the next time an outlandish story floats across your screen before you take the bait.

Did you see 'Nova' on PBS last night? It's a forensic examination of the assassination, and it cleared up a lot of things that bothered me. The 'magic bullet' has always been a major sticking point; I've seen it, and it looked way too good to have done what it did. Turns out, it looks exactly the way it should. We didn't know this for 50 years because no one actually tested the exact bullet, crazy as that sounds. The autopsy was a joke, but not for sinister reasons. I don't want to spoil the show for you, so I'm trying to avoid specifics on a lot of things, but suffice it to say, I am now completely convinced that Oswald was the lone gunman. Granted, this does not mean he acted alone, but combined with the reminder that he'd attempted to assassinate a general a few weeks before (something I always forget, probably because I want a conspiracy), it sure makes it more likely that he did.

You didn't touch the economic stuff I'd brought up, but I just want to leave you with a tidbit that I first picked up a month ago from a conservative commenter, either on Business Insider or Mother Jones, as an argument against Obamacare, and that I've now seen repeated twice: the American medical system produces almost all of the world's innovations, whether in techniques, devices or drugs, BECAUSE it is so profitable! That's right. Americans who can afford to should pay ridiculous amounts for health care so that medical innovation will continue apace, and those who can't afford it will just have to be sacrificed on the alter of ever better care for those who can pay!!! Along with the position that Americans should be willing to put up with a failing infrastructure so we can continue to provide military security for the whole planet, I'm sure these arguments will be enormously popular once the public comes to understand them! Cheers!

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Friday November 15, 2013, 12:07 am
I never watch TV and I haven't watched it for years.
I know I am missing a lot, but I just don't have the time. TV isn't interactive like the Internet is!

We in Seattle had the same problem with crazies and very unstable types coming to the Occupy camps. It was bound to happen. Sure, that was one of the problems. But the camps were getting experienced, tho sometimes it came the hard way, in policing THEMSELVES. It was not THAT that destroyed the Occupy movements, altho that gave it lots of grief. The "agents" were, as they usually are, the ones who got ideologically dedicated people, idealists, fighting among THEMSELVES, rather than uniting to face a common enemy. That, PLUS Police Violence in "clearing them out". But, as I said, the Occupy Movement can't die - they haven't killed it completely, and they CAN'T!
The agents are very clever, are trained in these techniques of psychological manipulation, and it really needs only ONE good person, to go in and destroy a group. I've seen that with my own eyes - and more than once, with my own eyes! Also, I've READ about similar instances, so I know my experiences aren't unique. Too bad the book by Brian Glick, "War at Home", is out-of-print and hard to get. Psychologist Eric Berne calls this technique "Let's You and Him Fight". You can start fights between two OTHER people if you know how - and appear innocent! As I said, I've SEEN this in action... [Book is Eric Berne's "Games People Play", it was a best-seller in the '60's and '70's.]

I started the FPCC in Seattle, along with some people living in the same apartment building I was in. {Not a commune, or anything like that.} I assure you, there were NO Communists. I knew these people quite well for years.They were very distinct from the Communists. I have no reason to lie about this. The people on the Far Left, didn't think the FPCC was Left enough.
As far as calling ME an "agent", I will choose to treat that as an intended joke.

Anyway, I am quite convinced that NO-ONE else is listening to us at this point. {Or "reading".} It is of interest to no-one else. This has just turned into a "conversation" between two people. As far as giving out my phone number, I don't do that.
I would much rather spend my time on Care2, talking to a LOT of people, or where more than one person can read, respond and discuss...
I don't feel any obligation to answer all or any of the points you raise. If you feel you've scored a point, fine.
You may answer this if you wish, but after this posting, don't expect any more replies from me. I am basically thru with this conversation.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Friday November 15, 2013, 12:45 am
N.B. "Communists" or IRA men. Altho we didn't have IRA in Seattle, that I know of, I doubt that IRA were involved in any way, shape or form in founding the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City.

The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, was NOT a violent, nor a "Revolutionary" group! It was more like an intellectual discussion group, aiming at "Liberal" Democratic Party members, and professors and students on the nearby U of W campus! The FPCC was in NO WAY a "front" for a secret cabal engaged in arms-running or Bolshevik subversion or anything like that! I doubt extremely that it would have had any "romantic" appeal for action-oriented IRA members or ex-members.
[I'd think that Che Guevara, and Revolution in Latin American countries, actual armed Revolution, would be more the style of an ex-IRA person! not an "intellectual discussion group" that Leftists despised!]
[Uh, Lee Harvey Oswald, with his posturing with a rifle and all - that famous Life magazine picture - he was NOT, definitely NOT, your typical Fair Play for Cuba Committee member! One has to LAUGH...]

Anyway, I hesitated very much to say this, but I'm going to venture it. You talk about the IRA in-fighting. Is it POSSIBLE - just POSSIBLE, mind you - the remotest possibility that this was caused, or at least egged on, by agents provocateurs? That is the KIND of thing they do. I imagine it was at least tried or envisioned, whether it actually happened that way, or not. What I do know about the IRA, and I think you'll agree, is, that it would have been VERY DANGEROUS to be an "agent" and be found out - the IRA was not known for being kind or tolerant towards "traitors", that I know!
Anyway, I find your remarks on the IRA quite fascinating and so felt compelled to make these further comments.
But I still do intend to close this discussion, on my part. [You don't need to answer my RHETORICAL question!]

Cathleen K (73)
Friday November 15, 2013, 10:29 am
Do you know any Irish people? We LIVE to argue; we once had something called 'The War of the Book' during the Dark Ages. One king lent another a book; the scribes of the second king copied the book; the copy was demanded by the owner of the original, a demand which was refused; war ensued and was ended by the first legal ruling regarding copyright in history: 'To each cow it's calf, and to each book it's copy." The monastery of Iona was founded by St Columba and his disciples because they were participants in this particularly silly war. We don't need no stinkin agents provocateur to divide us!

Irish nationalist movements were plagued by 'informers', but the Provos were not, partly because of ruthlessness, but also because of the times. Mass media gave them a platform unavailable to any of their predecessors, which in turn gave them an informed public that was deeply supportive. The English have admitted that the old playbook of infiltrate, divide and conquer didn't work well this time out (not that they didn't try, very, very hard), which is why they eventually sat down and negotiated a peace treaty, where the PIRA got most of what they wanted. This whole round of the 'Troubles' started over a set of laws in NI that made the Jim Crow laws of the South look positively progressive. The voting laws, for instance, were over the top. Take two families, one Protestant, one Catholic. Both are headed by 50 year old men; both have four sons over the age of 21. The Proddy owns his house, the Catholic lives in a counsel house. The Proddy owns his own business, the Catholic does not. The Proddy's sons all got their own counsel houses as soon as they got married, and two now own. The Catholic's sons are all married, but only one has been awarded housing, because this is Protestant controlled. Two of the Proddy's sons own businesses because they were able to obtain loans and shop leases on favorable terms, the Catholics all have crappy, low pay jobs. These 10 men each have 10 votes based on being adults. The two fathers each have an additional vote as heads of household, as do all of the Proddy's sons, while only one of the Catholic's sons has this extra vote (the one with his own home). Pappa Proddy has an additional vote for owning his own house and another for owning his own business, as do two of his sons. None of the Catholics has any of these votes. The five Catholics have seven votes, while the five Protestants have 20. You get the idea. These laws are all gone now, as is a legal structure that made it impossible for Catholics to get good jobs in the private sector and outright barred them from the police service and various other decent governmental jobs. Simple fixes from London that made it illegal to ask an applicant for a job or housing didn't work, because we can tell one another apart with close to 100% accuracy based on your name, about 80% accuracy based on looks, and total accuracy based on address.

The Regular IRA was not interested in fighting in NI in 1969 because they thought civil rights marches based on the movements headed by Gandhi and Dr. King (he's a huge hero in Ireland - you see pictures of him, along with JFK, in private homes everywhere) would get rid of these laws eventually, and because of demographics in NI and their own history. Ireland was partitioned into the self governing Free State that became the Republic and the statelet of NI shortly after WWI. Michael Collins, the military commander who's guerilla warfare campaign has been studied by every would be revolutionary of the 20th century, negotiated the deal with Winston Churchill, and he included an automatic dissolution of NI and reunification with the Free State when Catholics attained a majority of the population. When he brought this deal back, it triggered the Irish Civil War, in which he was assassinated. The men of RIRA lost their taste for blood when they killed their general, and they never got it back. Peace quickly ensued and the Collins faction, which was clearly winning the civil war, agreed to power sharing with the leadership of the other faction - Eamon De Valera occupied the largely ceremonial presidency for a very long time. The time bomb planted by Mick Collins in the documents that created the statelet was set to go off in a decade or two - Catholics were, as he and Churchill knew they would, outbreeding Protestants, and London was going to have to cut the place loose in the foreseeable future, so why go to war? The young men who founded PIRA knew something that the old men didn't - their girl friends were not going to have 10 kids because of the Pill (which was illegal in the Republic but readily available for free in NI). Populations levels have been fairly stable ever since.

The old men of the RIRA in NYC were not violent revolutionaries any more, but very supportive of Castro. The FPCC would have been right up their alley. That doesn't mean that they were involved in it's founding, but it's one explanation for how it got it's name. Your history lesson for the day has ended. Slainte!

Cathleen K (73)
Friday November 15, 2013, 11:35 am
Oops! Corrections/additions to the IRA piece needed:

1) St Columba was exiled from Ireland proper to 'East Ireland' - the Kingdom of Dalriada, which was the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. Ironically, this half of Scotland had been conquered by the Irish King of Ulster and was politically another Irish kingdom, owing the same obeisance to the High King at Tara as any of the Irish kingdoms on the mainland. Converting and civilizing the heathens they hadn't killed was the duty of every Irishman, and Columba was sent to perform this duty.

2) 'Simple fixes from London that made it illegal to ask the RELIGION of an applicant for a job or housing...' The key word, religion, was left out! We can tell one another apart because the 'plantation' of Ireland (yes, that's where that word comes from) under James I&VI, the first Stuart monarch of England, was confined to Lowland Scots, who are not what you think of when you think 'Scots' - they don't speak Gaelic, they don't wear kilts and they don't play the war pipes. They are 'no true Scotsmen', but rather off brand Englishmen. James knew his own people and knew that the Catholic Highlanders would 'go native' the minute they hit the ground and be even more trouble to him in Ulster than they were in Scotland. The plantation was a clever scheme to release serious pressure along the Borders (always a troublesome place, but on the verge of open rebellion in the wake of a famine) and to provide Ireland with a segment of the population loyal to the crown. The Scots Irish, so important in our own history, are descendants of these 'noisome' people. Their cultural attitudes of deep dislike and distrust of anyone not exactly like them, and their religious fundamentalism, came to infect most of the American South and haunt us to this day.

3) Civil Rights marches were being conducted regularly in NI. The brutality of the response, culminating in Bloody Sunday, January 30, 1972, would have made Bull Connor proud.


Cathleen K (73)
Friday November 15, 2013, 12:44 pm
If you don't watch TV at all, you don't understand the country you live in; sorry, that's just a fact - and you're missing some of the greatest artistic achievements in the history of the performing arts, and that's a shame. 'Mad Men' alone would have been a time machine back to your youth. The internet can be a wonderful source of info, but it's a source that feels no obligation, and even lacks a mechanism, to correct errors, and is full of people who are deliberately trying to mislead you. Sure, there are places on TV trying to mislead you also, but they get pushback from other sources immediately. See '60 Minutes' and their now infamous Benghazi report. TV has become interactive, with all shows having websites where you can provide feedback; many have large on line communities. A couple of years ago, I posted a comment on the website of 'Hardball with Chris Matthews'. About three months later, Chris himself answered me, and we've corresponded every few months since, which is why I know that John Boehner has become a miserable asshole with a growing drinking problem since the 2010 midterms. A lot of TV, including 'Nova', is available on line.

OWS NYC is doing fine. They did a lot of terrific work in the aftermath of Superstorm Sandy in underserved communities, they've organized successful strikes of workers at local chains and their leadership appears regularly on TV, particularly PBS and MSNBC. Income inequality and the malfeasance of banksters and corporations has gone mainstream on TV. Bill Moyer's new PBS show is entirely devoted to the subject - you should watch it on line, you'd love it.

Of course the 'agent provocateur' crack was a joke; glad you got it. Your lack of interest in responding to specific points raised has rendered this conversation pointless. Real conversation is never a waste of time, in my opinion, but even if you're only interested in a debate with an audience, I'll just point out before closing that refusing to answer any of the questions raised by your opponent is a sure fire way to lose them.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Saturday November 16, 2013, 12:53 pm
" We don't need no stinkin agents provocateur to divide us!" Well, I knew that!
It was FASCINATING, tho, about the first legal ruling for copyright! I didn't know that! That's what the Green Star is for! Very glad to learn about that!

Also was interesting to know about how IRA people felt about Castro and Gandhi. Did know SOME history of Irish non-violence. Had an Irish-descent Catholic Gay friend who had an Aunt in Ireland who was involved in the Bobby Seals fasting Protests. But your info is a lot more than I've known. Learning a bunch about the IRA! Knew somewhat about the so-called "Scots-Irish" and the "plantations", but not in such detail.

While Income Inequality is an issue with me, that is not the subject of this thread. It has gone on far too long, and I do believe no-one else is "listening". I do not "debate" anyway, and if you feel like an "opponent", that's not a concern of mine.
Glad we're both keeping in touch with the GOOD WORK the morphed OWS is doing - in my case, Occupy Seattle. They are involved in stopping some Home Foreclosures here.

This thread could very properly "wind down" as it has, tho partly interesting, certainly Lost Its Focus as well as its Audience. We can part on agreement about Occupy and the Great Work it has done, is doing and still will do, I'm sure! I think it's a "sleeping monster" underground, that will when the time is appropriate, RISE AGAIN!
[A GOOD "monster", of course! or maybe I should say, a DRAGON - they are considered BENEFICIAL creatures in Chinese mythology! bringing clouds & rain to parched earth.....]

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Saturday November 16, 2013, 1:09 pm
I mean, to clarify - while Occupy Wall Street, and the various Occupy Movements, are certainly still VISIBLE and ACTIVE -
I believe that a LARGE PART of this Movement, the visible outpouring of the Masses, in one place at one time - I believe that the ENERGY of that, has gone Underground, and is lying Dormant, but WILL RISE AGAIN -
we shall see!


Cathleen K (73)
Saturday November 16, 2013, 4:03 pm
OK, B, but as I said, OWS is mainstream now - for those of us with TVs! - and income inequality is a direct byproduct of the financialization of the US economy. It's at the heart of Occupy.

Glad you enjoyed the brief Irish history lesson. Nobody knows that business about the War of the Book - not because it's hidden, but probably because people don't like to think of the monks of Iona as killers. I think you mean Bobby Sands; I knew his brother, Sean. Bobby Seale was a cofounder of the Black Panthers - that's carrying the 'Black Irish' a bit too far!

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Saturday November 16, 2013, 9:26 pm
Oh, gosh, YES, Bobby SANDS, what an EMBARRASSIN' mistake!
"Black Irish" I hadda LAFF!!!
I LOL every time I think of it!
Supposed to be good for one's Health, to exercise the tummy muscles by Laffin'...
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